GASP! On check in I was advised by a CM to...

[Pedler]

Generally, the concern is that abuse of an offering generally leads the company to radically change the offering, to the detriment of all. There is another thread on the DIS that lists a large number of offerings that Disney has had to either radically change, curtail, or completely eliminate in response to the way some guests were interacting with the offering. So the concern you see people expressing is, at least in part, a concern about how "what other people do" will affect the value of what everyone is offered next year.

I would think it would take signifigant wholesale abuse to cause a change. Even then short of outright fraud of making up phantom guests during a free dinning promo I can't see that using the plan in this manner, (I don't think its abuse) would cause a change. Even with large scale use.

Take a simple example: A family of 4 with 2 adults and 2 children purchase the plan while staying at the WL. Lets look at one day in the life of the plan. If they payed $39 for the adults and $12 for the kids then the total plan cost would be 102$. If they were to have purchased 4 adults the total cost would be $156. Lets say that they decide to pay for the kids TS meals OOP for breakfast and then use them for a second TS meal for themselves while the kids sit and watch. (Yes, they are cruel parents!) So the OOP meals cost around $20. That means that they payed a total of $122 and recieved the equivalent of $156 worth of adult dinning plan credits. (This doesn't take into acount any differences of cost between kids / adults CS meals). So Disneys total lost opportunity cost from these folks "abusing" the plan is what they would have paid for 4 adults, $156, less what they did pay $122. That puts the lost revenue to Disney at $34 per day.

At this point Disney is out $34 per day on the plan. And if they do this each and every day for a 7 day vacation then Disney is out $238 total. That is assuming a wholesale use of the plan in this manner and never using a TS credit on the kids. Highly unlikely but what the heck, you never know. Now what did Disney get from our intrepid family? Well first they gave up any potential discounts. So if they were paying $250 per night for the room and could have gotten a 10% AAA discount or something then they lose that. So lets say Disney is up 10% on the room. That means they get an additional $25 per day on that room. So now with the wholesale abuse of the plan for the family of 4 Disney is out $9 per day. That is the total opportunity cost of someone using credits purchased at a childs price for an adult.

So what does Disney get for being out the $9 per day on this wholesale "abuse"? They in essence get a captive audience that is not going to leave the WDW property. Lets face it if you are that concerned about maximizing credits on every meal then you definitely aren't going off site to eat if you already paid for your meals at Disney. Also as you are not forking over money for your meals you will probably spend more on site. So for a worst case scenario for a family of 4 staying at WL Disney is out $9 per day and in return they get your undivided money, I mean attention.

I would think that Disney would be happy if all it cost them to keep people captive and not spend money elsewhere was $9 per day. For our family of 4 its only $2.25 per person. Heck they just upped the snack credit value by about $1.50 per person per day.

That is why I think the concern about the use of credits paid for at a child price by adults is overblown. I have yet to see an example that demonstrates any serious downside to Disney short of the outright fraud.

 

[jbbt]

Excellent example Pedler! In past years, during our vacation, we have spent 2 nights and 3 days at Universal - stayed there and ate there. How many nights are we staying there this year - 0!!!!!! We plan on going over there for a little while, only because they have a concert we want to attend. Our time over there will be very limited as we have the dining plan and will eat at Disney before we go and after we get back, so Universal will get very little of our vacation money this year! It will all be spent at Disney!!!

 

[Pedler]

Excellent example Pedler! In past years, during our vacation, we have spent 2 nights and 3 days at Universal - stayed there and ate there. How many nights are we staying there this year - 0!!!!!! We plan on going over there for a little while, only because they have a concert we want to attend. Our time over there will be very limited as we have the dining plan and will eat at Disney before we go and after we get back, so Universal will get very little of our vacation money this year! It will all be spent at Disney!!!

What would be an interesting study is in about another year or two assess the impact of the Magical Express, Dinning plan and new ticket pricing (as of 2005) on other Orlando attractions and the Orlando tourist business as a whole. ME has definitely impacted the transportation business. Based on park attendence last year Universal definitely took at hit but it takes more than one year to really assess the impact. Disneys attendence, occupancy rates and per capita spending went up. It would be interesting to see what impact this has on other area hotels and restaurants.

 

[cherokeemamma]

Everyone Breathe Deep!

Some of you guys have way to much time on your hands.

Every person knows in their own heart what is right for their family and the right thing to do. I agree if you are doing something wrong (whether intentional or not) and the CM doesn't correct you and explain what is OK...it really is not your fault. I am quite sure they are trained throughly.


Remember....let your conscience be your guide!

 

[LoveThatDarnMouse]

I would think it would take signifigant wholesale abuse to cause a change. Even then short of outright fraud of making up phantom guests during a free dinning promo I can't see that using the plan in this manner, (I don't think its abuse) would cause a change. Even with large scale use.

Take a simple example: A family of 4 with 2 adults and 2 children purchase the plan while staying at the WL. Lets look at one day in the life of the plan. If they payed $39 for the adults and $12 for the kids then the total plan cost would be 102$. If they were to have purchased 4 adults the total cost would be $156. Lets say that they decide to pay for the kids TS meals OOP for breakfast and then use them for a second TS meal for themselves while the kids sit and watch. (Yes, they are cruel parents!) So the OOP meals cost around $20. That means that they payed a total of $122 and recieved the equivalent of $156 worth of adult dinning plan credits. (This doesn't take into acount any differences of cost between kids / adults CS meals). So Disneys total lost opportunity cost from these folks "abusing" the plan is what they would have paid for 4 adults, $156, less what they did pay $122. That puts the lost revenue to Disney at $34 per day.

At this point Disney is out $34 per day on the plan. And if they do this each and every day for a 7 day vacation then Disney is out $238 total. That is assuming a wholesale use of the plan in this manner and never using a TS credit on the kids. Highly unlikely but what the heck, you never know. Now what did Disney get from our intrepid family? Well first they gave up any potential discounts. So if they were paying $250 per night for the room and could have gotten a 10% AAA discount or something then they lose that. So lets say Disney is up 10% on the room. That means they get an additional $25 per day on that room. So now with the wholesale abuse of the plan for the family of 4 Disney is out $9 per day. That is the total opportunity cost of someone using credits purchased at a childs price for an adult.

So what does Disney get for being out the $9 per day on this wholesale "abuse"? They in essence get a captive audience that is not going to leave the WDW property. Lets face it if you are that concerned about maximizing credits on every meal then you definitely aren't going off site to eat if you already paid for your meals at Disney. Also as you are not forking over money for your meals you will probably spend more on site. So for a worst case scenario for a family of 4 staying at WL Disney is out $9 per day and in return they get your undivided money, I mean attention.

I would think that Disney would be happy if all it cost them to keep people captive and not spend money elsewhere was $9 per day. For our family of 4 its only $2.25 per person. Heck they just upped the snack credit value by about $1.50 per person per day.

That is why I think the concern about the use of credits paid for at a child price by adults is overblown. I have yet to see an example that demonstrates any serious downside to Disney short of the outright fraud.

Two thumbs up! I'm impressed~thanks so much for figuring that all out!

 

[sara74]

So okay, the plan equals the number of nights rather than the number of days. Your scenarios are set up to show what a family would do if they arrived very early on day one and stayed very late on the last day. In reality, this probably doesn't happen very often. In your first scenario, you are still paying for A LOT of meals OOP. After paying for the dining plan, that doesn't seem like such a deal to me.

To me, it just looks like people are making the DDP much more convoluted than it really is.

It seems like one snack, one CS, and one TS is more than enough to fill a person up for each day. I could see OOP costs in addition to it for drinks, but that's about it, and then maybe for the extraordinary circumstances of having an extra full day without the DP (i.e., day 1 or last day), which could easily be fixed by sharing. It just seems like SO much food when using the plan straightforwardly (disregarding the flexibility aspect) without trying to "maximize" it (or whatever you want to call it). Of course creative use of the dining plan will come into play if the family wants to dine at one or more signature meals (as I stated in my previous post).

All I keep thinking with this thread is that my family must just be full of a bunch of pigs! We ate on the DP and paid for some meals OOP and while I felt we had planty of food, I also realized way ahead of time that we were going to run out of credits on our stay! I don't think that it is all that uncommon for a family to arrive early and leave late on their travel days. We have done all of our vacations that way for a decade. Why waste a day on travel? We were in MK at park opening on the day our DP started and were at MK until 3 PM on the day we went home. Add to that a 2 year old who eats as much as his 4 yo sister but doesn't have a park ticket and therefore no dining plan and we had plently of opportunities to use extra credits. In addition, as was mentioned before, we did have 2 2 credit meals (CRT and CG) so coupled with an entire 'extra' day of stretching the DP to 7 days instead of 6 and we needed more food than the DP provided. At least we thought we did! Having planned all this out ahead of time, incl our OOP costs, DH and I were well aware that we would have OOP costs and knew where we planned on paying OOP for DD to 'stretch' the plan. We were told by several CMs that it was ok to do this, at more than one location. Could we have shared meals? Sure, I guess. BUt DH wanted the skillet at WC and you can't share that (at least I don't think you can since it is all you care to eat) and we couldn't share at the buffets either.

I have to agree with this. Disney isn't run by financial fools. If it didnt' somehow benefit them, they wouldn't be doing it. They know that there are people who are creatively using the plan and that, like DH, love getting more thatn their $s worth. I truly think the dining and the value that DH thinks he got with it is part of what is making him agree to go back to WDW! If they lost any $ on our first trip (and with rack rates at WL for 6 nights I doubt it!) then they will make it all back on our return trips!

 

[Lewisc]

To me official policy is what's communicated to all guests via the dining brochure, the disney website and the documents we get when we check in to our resort. To me your email reply only applies to you.

If Disney was concerned with this "abuse" they could start by enforcing the stated rule that all guests dining in signature restaurants, character meals and dinner shows have the appropriate number of credits debited from the MYW Dining account. In other words you can't just pay out of pocket for your kids meals. Reducing the number of opportunities to pay out of pocket for kids meals would reduce this "problem"

Internet sites have been suggesting that guests "use their kids a license to print money" for over a year. Disney could have made the change effective 1/1/06 at the same time they changed CRT to 2 credits and Coral Reef to 1 credit. Disney could even change the language in the documents but delay enforcing it. Some of the guests who bank "kids" credits do it because it is clearly permitted.

My guess is this is an idea more guests talk about but in real life it's not that big a deal.

Ignore guests using their credits to pay for the meals of guests NOT ON THE MEAL PLAN. Guests can use the meal plan for a CS lunch and a TS dinner. Paying out of pocket for kids meals gives Disney money and using the banked credits for breakfast doesn't cost Disney much. Using the banked credits for dinner shows also doesn't cost Disney much, the dollar value of the food at the dinner shows isn't all that much.

I would have set up the plan with adult and child credits but I'm sure Disney knows what they're doing.

I emailed Disney and the reply I got was No, you can not do this. To me that is the official policy.

Pedler has the best grasp of the situation. It is a large corporation with lots of overseas visitors. Once the program goes out to all these agencies world wide, due to legal issues they can't just up and change things over night. There are also implimentation issues.

Also as Pedler has said, even if they wish people would not use the plan this way, the cure might be worse than the illness.

 

[medicgirl_911]

Okay so say you paid for the child oop, that's about 10 bucks for dinner, but you've already paid for their plan for the day so Disney is making out if you use it for an adult meal or rather it's a wash. It is what it is, Disney is not a bunch of dummies. The only restriction I was told was that a child dining has to order off the children's menu, never said not to pay oop. I find it rather silly that people are firing off or ready to fire off letters to Guest Services to get CM's in trouble I've had rude CM's and nice CM's the latter are the only ones I write letters about.

To the OP, I don't think it would be very nice of you to write a letter against a very nice CM who passed along some information to you regarding their policies on the Dining Plan. If you had a problem or a question, why didn't you ask if they could confirm this with a Manager right then and there?

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, I was being jestful in my post, I sometimes forget sarcasm, a laugh, etc doesnt always come through in writing.
I do see though how people can be confused on wether this is a right or a wrong thing to do, especially when the Disney folks don't really seen to mind, and CM's are telling them to do this. I am under the belief that if Disney was losing money on the deal, it wouldnt't be allowed to happen.

 

[TONNIE]

Disney knows what it is doing. I can only imagine the revenue it is getting from the ddp. I would never eat ts without it I would only eat cs. When we went in Nov. with my dd9 and ds8 not only did I pay oop for some of their ts but they didnt make my kids order off the kids menu 50% of the time.


I dont know if it was because my daughter looks like she is older or if the cm just dont care. We stayed at pop and they didnt even care what the kids got for snacks or cs. When we got ready to fly home the cm gave my daughter with 6 snack crs 2btles of water, 2 fruit cups and 2 rice krispie snacks. We had no problems with ddp at all the room keys showed 1 adult 2 children.

I think it is up to the cm what they want to do. We werent looking to cheat the system but when they tell you, you can have this or that. I say THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

 

[Luvamouse]

Pedler,

I am very impressed with your analysis a few posts back. I still feel strongly about using the credits as they are purchased , but the water seems pretty muddy about if Disney cares. I do, however, agree wholeheartedly about Disney not losing given all the caveats that come with the plan. It just brings them more money from those families who are buying the DDP.

For example, when we split our stay, I must buy another MYW pass for the second resort to purchase the dining plan--it will cost us an additional $241 (at 2006 prices) to buy stripped down 1 Day tickets for my family. (I really need to crunch some numbers and decide if the Dining Plan will work for us or if we just eat as if we have it and charge it to the room, paying later to achieve the same convenience as the DDP.) I guess I am lucky that we don't arrive for another 559 days, so I have to assume they will have better guidelines then for what is acceptable on the DDP per the "official" Disney word. If not, my mind will be mush.

 

[therat]

I buy a family meal plan when I take my son, and use all of his meals. I just pack him peanut butter and jelly sandwiches in place of his lunches and dinners. He really just likes breakfast anyway (so he just uses the snack credits). A CM told me to do this, he said that a lot of parents do the same. Try it out! It is great!

 

[Lewisc]

I buy a family meal plan when I take my son, and use all of his meals. I just pack him peanut butter and jelly sandwiches in place of his lunches and dinners. He really just likes breakfast anyway (so he just uses the snack credits). A CM told me to do this, he said that a lot of parents do the same. Try it out! It is great!

Some of the food courts have complimentary packets of peanut butter and jelly in the condiment section of the food courts Buy a loaf of bread and you're good to go.

 

[GoodFairies]

All I keep thinking with this thread is that my family must just be full of a bunch of pigs! We ate on the DP and paid for some meals OOP and while I felt we had planty of food, I also realized way ahead of time that we were going to run out of credits on our stay! I don't think that it is all that uncommon for a family to arrive early and leave late on their travel days. We have done all of our vacations that way for a decade. Why waste a day on travel? We were in MK at park opening on the day our DP started and were at MK until 3 PM on the day we went home. Add to that a 2 year old who eats as much as his 4 yo sister but doesn't have a park ticket and therefore no dining plan and we had plently of opportunities to use extra credits. In addition, as was mentioned before, we did have 2 2 credit meals (CRT and CG) so coupled with an entire 'extra' day of stretching the DP to 7 days instead of 6 and we needed more food than the DP provided. At least we thought we did! Having planned all this out ahead of time, incl our OOP costs, DH and I were well aware that we would have OOP costs and knew where we planned on paying OOP for DD to 'stretch' the plan. We were told by several CMs that it was ok to do this, at more than one location. Could we have shared meals? Sure, I guess. BUt DH wanted the skillet at WC and you can't share that (at least I don't think you can since it is all you care to eat) and we couldn't share at the buffets either.

I have to agree with this. Disney isn't run by financial fools. If it didnt' somehow benefit them, they wouldn't be doing it. They know that there are people who are creatively using the plan and that, like DH, love getting more thatn their $s worth. I truly think the dining and the value that DH thinks he got with it is part of what is making him agree to go back to WDW! If they lost any $ on our first trip (and with rack rates at WL for 6 nights I doubt it!) then they will make it all back on our return trips!

You had 3 "strikes" against you which were (1) an ineligible member for the dining plan who eats like an eligible member for the dining plan, (2) the desire to eat at a couple of signature restaurants, and (3) the extra nearly full day on property for which credits were not given. It certainly makes sense the way you used the ddp.

I wasn't here to argue about the "proper" use of the ddp at all. It doesn't affect me how people use it since I don't foresee using it. I simply wanted to point out that it didn't seem to me like a huge savings once the OOP costs are taken into account (and obviously the full price room). I agree with your statement that Disney is not run by financial fools. My previous comment was that how can someone be amazed that a CM urges them to use the ddp in a certain way. Well...it's simple...they are urging you to pay extra money to Disney. Period. Why wouldn't they want you to do that? It's important that the consumer feels like there is a savings.

For people who normally eat the way the ddp allows, I'm sure there is a savings involved. And using an example previously given, a person listed one typical day (on which credits would run out by the end of the trip) as being: snack breakfast, CS lunch, ice cream snack, and TS dinner. That's like 3 desserts in the matter of what, 8 hours ? I probably won't ever use the ddp, but if I did, I'd probably do CS breakfast, afternoon snack and TS dinner. Or morning snack (pastry), CS lunch, and TS dinner. That is more in line of how I normally eat (but still more considering the apps and dessert which I do not eat normally) and so for me use of the credits in the simplest, most direct way would be quite doable. And because they are so generous with the TS allotment, I could share a meal or two to squeeze in a two-credit meal or 'save' for that last full day.

 

[Sammie]

To me official policy is what's communicated to all guests via the dining brochure, the disney website and the documents we get when we check in to our resort. To me your email reply only applies to you.

So Disney only wants "me" to do this and no one else.

I am sure if anyone else emails them, the reply would be the same, but then I have a feeling no one is willing to honestly do that.

I don't think their brochure or website, says you can do this, it just does not say you can't. There is a difference, which is why I emailed them for clarification. I got the clarification.

 

[Lewisc]

Sorry but I don't think guests are required to follow a rule that's communicated via an email that's posted on an internet discussion board.

Almost all of the people posting say the same thing, CMs at WDW say the exact same thing that's on Disney's website.

I've read the brochure, looked at Disney's website, read what CMs told DISBOARD members and even read Mary's comments at mousesavers. They all say the same thing.

There is no such thing as a child or adult credit. Credits are pooled by category; TS, CS and snack. Any family member can use the any of the credits.

Following your imaginary rule would require that guests do their own record keeping since Disney only keeps track of credits by type.

Put two kids in one of the kids clubs the last night and eat in a Signature restaurant. Try to explain to the waiter that you need to pay for one meal since you only have 2A and 2C TS credits left in the account. The server will be happy to follow the rules and debit 4 TS credits from your account.

So Disney only wants "me" to do this and no one else.

I am sure if anyone else emails them, the reply would be the same, but then I have a feeling no one is willing to honestly do that.

I don't think their brochure or website, says you can do this, it just does not say you can't. There is a difference, which is why I emailed them for clarification. I got the clarification.

 

[Nancyg56]

We were posting at the same time, but this had me

It's true - it's all about the bottom line, even for a super fabulous place like WDW. I guarantee a whole boardroom of cost/benefit analysis folks figured out how this would actually MAKE money for WDW.

ITA. My DH wanted to stay offsite. I said No Way...no dining plan, we paid full price, but got the plan. I think it is along the same lines as the loss losers at the grocery store. You go in for the plan, maybe use a chils credit for an extra adult meal, but in the end Disney has gotten you to spend your money in their resort and not down the road a bit.

 

[superdiz]

So let me get this straight... a CM told you something, trying to be nice and helpful, which is their job, and hopefully trying to make your stay better, and you are in turn going to call their boss and tell him what a bad employee they are? You were that child weren't you? The one none of the other kids wanted to play with because every time they colored outside the lines you said "I'm telling!". Obnoxious.

 

[cgbsilver@hotmail.co]

I think we should stop debating this issue. Seriously. If you do not think it should be done do not do it, but do not ruin it for the rest who feel there is nothing wrong with it.

Even on Mousesavers they tell you are allowed to do this, and this people are on the money all the time when it comes to Disney.

 

[Sammie]

I think we should stop debating this issue. Seriously. If you do not think it should be done do not do it, but do not ruin it for the rest who feel there is nothing wrong with it.

Even on Mousesavers they tell you are allowed to do this, and this people are on the money all the time when it comes to Disney.

How does discussing this, ruin it for those that feel there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Lewisc]

I think we should stop debating this issue. Seriously. If you do not think it should be done do not do it, but do not ruin it for the rest who feel there is nothing wrong with it.

Even on Mousesavers they tell you are allowed to do this, and this people are on the money all the time when it comes to Disney.

What will ruin it isn't people debating, to death, the current rules and polices regarding "child" credits. I think Mary is correct in her interperation of the dining plan. There really isn't any other way to interpert the plan.

What will kill the present policy is an excess of greedy guests who feel it's a waste to use ANY credits, paid for at the child rate, to purchase child meals. Disney set up the plan the way they did assuming a limited number of "child" credits will wind up buying adult meals. When too many people take advantage of this plan feature Disney will either seperate adult and child credits, which wouldn't bother me, or just raise the price to everyone.