GASP! On check in I was advised by a CM to...

[Sammie]

What will ruin it isn't people debating, to death, the current rules and polices regarding "child" credits. I think Mary is correct in her interperation of the dining plan. There really isn't any other way to interpert the plan.

What will kill the present policy is an excess of greedy guests who feel it's a waste to use ANY credits, paid for at the child rate, to purchase child meals. Disney set up the plan the way they did assuming a limited number of "child" credits will wind up buying adult meals. When too many people take advantage of this plan feature Disney will either seperate adult and child credits, which wouldn't bother me, or just raise the price to everyone.

Ok this we can agree on.

 

[Lewisc]

Ok this we can agree on.

Sammie--I think Disney is crazy leaving the plan the way it is. The fact that I, and I suspect you, would have separated credits into adult and child doesn't change the fact that Disney didn't do it that way.

I'm still not sure if guests who abuse/overuse this plan feature are "smart consumers" or are greedy but I think the "overusers" will ruin it for those who are using it as a way to use the occasional free credit that comes from a kid skipping a meal.

 

[Pedler]

I think we should stop debating this issue. Seriously. If you do not think it should be done do not do it, but do not ruin it for the rest who feel there is nothing wrong with it.

Even on Mousesavers they tell you are allowed to do this, and this people are on the money all the time when it comes to Disney.

The reason it keeps getting discussed is that there are people that want clarification on if doing this is wrong / unethical / improper or allowed so they ask a question for clarification. Then you get the debate going on again. The problem is that there is no absolute black and white clear cut answer to this. The large amount of evidence points to this being allowed but there is the occasional evidence that points to the contrary. Most of us feel that there is not such thing as a uniform CM response and as such you have to weigh all responses on most issues that are not explicitly defined. (Just go over to the transportation board and do a search on character meals transportation to get a feel for the variety of inaccurate info from CM's). Others have a different view. Most people can agree to disagree and just present thier view point and keep this civil. Some of the earlier discussions got a bit too overheated with name calling.

Out all the dissenting opinions Sammie's is about the only one based upon some sort of facts. Actually I think it is the only posting I have seen that has any thing other than hearsay about not using the plan in this manner. The only issue I have with the e-mail response Sammie got is that it mentions something that does not exist, that is child / adult credits. It causes be to discount the reponse as maybe being an inaccurate statement by CM that is in charge of answering e-mails. It wouldn't be the first time someone has gotten an inaccurate response. Still it is a check mark in favor of those opposed to the use of the plan in this manner.

I think outside of specific published example by Disney of using the plan in this manner the only real test is going to be the passage of time. Sammie is correct that making these type of changes do take time and can't be done on an impulse overnight. But as more and more time passes and nothing has changed except for the plan becoming even more generous, i.e. the snack changes, it starts to become evident that Disney doesn't plan to change the plan and this is an allowable use of the plan. Even if Disney didn't want to go to the hassel of changing the plan or risk offending guests they could at least try to tell CM's not to reccomend paying OOP for kids meals. Instead of a decline in this activity it appears to be on the rise. If by January 2007 they still haven't changed the plan and CM's are still making this reccomendation I would have to believe that they have no plans to change it and it is conclusive that this is an appropriate use of the plan.

The unfortunate thing about this whole debate is that there are people who clear abuse the plan by making up children / extra guests to get extra TS credits. At the same time there are people who short of a detailed notorized example by Disney in 24 point typeface showing the use of all credits by adults only by a family of 4 with 2 kids for a 2 week vacation will never accept the use of the plan in this manner. There have been posts by people saying that regardless of what Disney says or allows it isn't right to use the plan in this manner.

 

[Sammie]

Sammie--I think Disney is crazy leaving the plan the way it is. The fact that I, and I suspect you, would have separated credits into adult and child doesn't change the fact that Disney didn't do it that way.

I'm still not sure if guests who abuse/overuse this plan feature are "smart consumers" or are greedy but I think the "overusers" will ruin it for those who are using it as a way to use the occasional free credit that comes from a kid skipping a meal.

I guess it bothers me because I have friends that work in the restaurants and what you described is happening. Greedy people getting the plan and using it just to get adult meals for friends and relatives not even on the plan and not even staying at Disney resorts and the kids are eating goldfish and PB&J. Hopefully none of our DISers are doing this.

Also I think they way the plan is set up is very unfair to parents who have 9 year olds that want more than is offered on the child's menu. You have these kids having to order from the kid's menu or pay OOP to supplement the plan and right next to them at another table you will have an adult chowing down on a big steak that was covered with a child's portion of the pool.

 

[Pedler]

I'm still not sure if guests who abuse/overuse this plan feature are "smart consumers" or are greedy but I think the "overusers" will ruin it for those who are using it as a way to use the occasional free credit that comes from a kid skipping a meal.

I like to think of us as smart consumers but then again I get excited by triple coupons!

I would like to see a specific financial example of a family of 4 that abuse the plan and how the impact would cause Disney to change it. I haven't been able to come up with an example that costs Disney all that much. The only operational parameter I have on my analysis is that the cost to Disney isn't the extra food cost people get with using a "child" credit for an adult meal its the cost differential between a child / adult dinning plan. Roughly $27 per day per adult. Disney as already determined that it is worth letting people order just about whatever they want for $39 so the only real difference is the revenue lost when people don't pay the extra $27 for an adult dinning plan. Taking into account the lost potential discount, increased occupancy, revenue form paying OOP for the kids and all the other benefits I haven't been able to find a downside. Admittedly at the value hotels the potential discound savings is less but at the more expensive deluxes it is more. Short of outright fraud I just haven't been able to figure out a serious downside for Disney even if a family did this everyday of the week.

 

[Pedler]

I guess it bothers me because I have friends that work in the restaurants and what you described is happening. Greedy people getting the plan and using it just to get adult meals for friends and relatives not even on the plan and not even staying at Disney resorts and the kids are eating goldfish and PB&J. Hopefully none of our DISers are doing this.

I wouldn't blame this on the dinning plan. People that do that are going to treat thier kids that way regardless of the dinning plan. If they are not willing to buy them meals on the dinning plan then they are probably not willing to do it if they were not on the dinning plan. One thing to keep in mind though is that there is the possibility that those kids prefer the PB&J's and gold fish to whatever is on the menu.

Also I think they way the plan is set up is very unfair to parents who have 9 year olds that want more than is offered on the child's menu. You have these kids having to order from the kid's menu or pay OOP to supplement the plan and right next to them at another table you will have an adult chowing down on a big steak that was covered with a child's portion of the pool.

There are situations where the plan does not work out for people, the case of the 9 year old that wants food from the adult menu or the 10, 11, or 12 year old that pays for the adult rate but would rather eat mac and cheese all day.

No one is forced to pay for the dinning plan. It offers the ability for people to pay in advance for a set meal plan. If it works for people then great but just because it doesn't work for other people doesn't make the plan unfair or mean that the plan has something wrong with it.

 

[Lewisc]

The plan doesn't work very well for 9 year olds that like to eat adult meals or for 10 year olds that eat very little. For most families the plan works, the family as whole get their monies worth, even if some individuals members of the family don't get their monies worth.

I don't want to debate this point because I know very few people would agree with me. A good case can be made for Disney stopping MYW Dining guests buying meals for people not on their package. The plan says the meal credits are for use by the family and that they are not transferable. I look at the plan almost like a buffet. Some people eat more than others but we all pay the same price. Sharing your buffet meal with a non-paying guest is cheating. Disney said they want to provide a dining experience similar to what you get on a cruise. Again cruise passengers don't get to share their meals with non-passengers. Same at all-inclusive resorts.

A family that pays out of pocket for some of their kids meals will just be freeing up credits to use for breakfast or two credit meals both of which are not great deals for dining. Does Disney really lose much when parents pay for a kids dinner and use the credit for an adult breakfast?

I'll agree the bigger issue is when the "banked" credits are used to buy meals for people not on the plan.

For at least the character meals, dinner shows and signature meals Disney could follow the terms of the brochure and require all guests use the plan. A card that said 2A 2C would have to be used to purchase 2 adult meals and 2 child meals with no option to pay out of pocket for the 2 C meals. Disney wouldn't have to change any rules, would stop most of the "abuse/overuse" and would still give families some flexibility to accommodate those cases in which a child skips a meal or two.

I have no problem if you, or others, want to categorize some of the "overusers" as being greedy. I just don't think they can be called cheaters or immoral since they're following the printed rules.

I guess it bothers me because I have friends that work in the restaurants and what you described is happening. Greedy people getting the plan and using it just to get adult meals for friends and relatives not even on the plan and not even staying at Disney resorts and the kids are eating goldfish and PB&J. Hopefully none of our DISers are doing this.

Also I think they way the plan is set up is very unfair to parents who have 9 year olds that want more than is offered on the child's menu. You have these kids having to order from the kid's menu or pay OOP to supplement the plan and right next to them at another table you will have an adult chowing down on a big steak that was covered with a child's portion of the pool.

 

[Pedler]

I don't want to debate this point because I know very few people would agree with me. A good case can be made for Disney stopping MYW Dining guests buying meals for people not on their package. The plan says the meal credits are for use by the family and that they are not transferable. I look at the plan almost like a buffet. Some people eat more than others but we all pay the same price. Sharing your buffet meal with a non-paying guest is cheating. Disney said they want to provide a dining experience similar to what you get on a cruise. Again cruise passengers don't get to share their meals with non-passengers. Same at all-inclusive resorts.

I was unaware that Disney has said that they wanted to make it like a cruise. I know I thought of it has a land cruise but I didn't know Disney felt that way.

Its a bit different than an all inclusive resort. An all inclusive resort for the most part is an all you can eat buffet type of deal. The dinning plan is in essence a prepaid voucher program. You could eat them all up in the first half of your vacation where with an all inclusive resort you couldn't do that.

I agree that the credits are non transferrable. You can't give them to someone else to use, transfer them to someone elses card, sell them on ebay or whatever. What you can do is purchase food for them and give that food to someone else. There is nothing in the rules that I have seen that say you can't purchase food for yourself, your 2nd cousin visiting from the area and not staying on site or randomly buying food for people in line at the CS places. You can't transfer the credits but you can do whatever you want with the meals you purchase. This isn't just me playing semantics on this. I believe early in the plan people did contact Disney and were told that this was an acceptable use of the plan.

Personally I can't understand why the use of the plan in this manner bothers anyone. What harm is it to people if you decided to pay for the kids meals OOP so they can pay for some family members that are not on the plan but may be visiting for the day? I don't think there is any ambiguity about purchasing meals for people not on your reservation. By all accounts that is clearly allowed and there have been several posts about people spreading "pixie dust" by purchasing CS meals for others on thier last day.

 

[sweetp267]

I have another question.

I know that you can't get an adult meal for a child at a TS restaurant, but can I possibly get an adult meal at a CS restaurant for my 8 year old. I hear about paying oop for kids meals but could you get away with getting a third adult meal and not a childs meal?

Thanks

 

[mking624]

Pedler, while your explanations are good, they're not foolproof. The problem with them is that you keep referring to a single family cost. You're not looking at it on a grander scale. As more and more people discover the loophole of the credits not being tied to a specific age, more and more people will take advantage of it (and although you don't like the term, "abusing" it is really better suited. The definition of "abuse" is to misuse or use improperly...and if you know that the DDP is not meant to be used in this way - no matter how you try to justify it - then it constitutes as misuse). The cost goes up way more than just $9 a day if so many people are taking advantage of this. My thoughts are to simply not ruin a good thing. While it's possible for Disney to not change the way things are set up, why even try to tempt that fate?

Your argument would have had me if you didn't focus on just one family.

 

[Lewisc]

An individual consumer has look at the rules, which currently allow the practice, and do what works best for them. Disney isn't going to be making any changes based on what a single family does. Disney has to decide how many greedy guests it's willing to put up with before they change the plan. I do think internet sites that suggest guests "use their children as a license to print money" might contribute to the kind of behavior that might cause Disney to change the plan.

You're right Disney could seperate the credits into adult/child, raise the child rate, raise both rates or make other rule changes that reduce

Pedler, while your explanations are good, they're not foolproof. The problem with them is that you keep referring to a single family cost. You're not looking at it on a grander scale. As more and more people discover the loophole of the credits not being tied to a specific age, more and more people will take advantage of it (and although you don't like the term, "abusing" it is really better suited. The definition of "abuse" is to misuse or use improperly...and if you know that the DDP is not meant to be used in this way - no matter how you try to justify it - then it constitutes as misuse). The cost goes up way more than just $9 a day if so many people are taking advantage of this. My thoughts are to simply not ruin a good thing. While it's possible for Disney to not change the way things are set up, why even try to tempt that fate?

Your argument would have had me if you didn't focus on just one family.

 

[Pedler]

Pedler, while your explanations are good, they're not foolproof. The problem with them is that you keep referring to a single family cost. You're not looking at it on a grander scale. As more and more people discover the loophole of the credits not being tied to a specific age, more and more people will take advantage of it (and although you don't like the term, "abusing" it is really better suited. The definition of "abuse" is to misuse or use improperly...and if you know that the DDP is not meant to be used in this way - no matter how you try to justify it - then it constitutes as misuse). The cost goes up way more than just $9 a day if so many people are taking advantage of this. My thoughts are to simply not ruin a good thing. While it's possible for Disney to not change the way things are set up, why even try to tempt that fate?

Your argument would have had me if you didn't focus on just one family.

mking624,

I am not sure that I understand what you are asking for. If you mean what would happen if everyone were to do this then yes, the cost to Disney would be much larger. If there were 80,000 people going to Disney on a given day then the cost would be $180,000 (Thats $9 for per 4 guests) . Take that times 365 days then it becomes 65,700,000 for the year. Thats $65 million dollars if there were wholesale abuse. That is a lot of money looking at it as a separate line item. Then look at last years parks and resorts numbers. Sales were a bit over 9 billion dollars. An increase from the prior year of 1.27 billion dollars. It has been noted that at the same time Universal saw a drop in attendence. Part of that 1.27 billion dollar increase has been attributed to the new ticket pricing, magical express and packages that include the MYW dinning. $65 million dollars is 5% of the increase in revenue for parks and hotels. Of the total revenue it registers less than 1%.


The reason to boil it down to a per person rate is because that is the most meaninfull way to look at it. For example on metric Disney mentions in the annual report is the measurement of per capita spending. That was up this year. So if the per person cost of wholesale abuse is $2.25 per person per day but the per capita spending were to go up more than that you could determine that the cost was worth it.

 

[penguin087]

This argument comes up again and again. The bottom line is Disney does the dining plan because Disney is making money off the dining plan. Its not the cost of the meals its the draw of keeping you on the property. It is worth it to them. Before you even arrive, they have sold your family X amount of meals even if you don't use them all and I am sure a fair amount of people don't. No doubt the DDP is a great deal for us but please don't think Disney does the dining plan because they want to be nice. No matter how many ways someone can "exploit" the DDP Disney made their profit. Every loophole, every missed meal, every uneaten snack is figured in and if they missed something (which I doubt) they will change it so it is profitable.

Is Disney exploiting me when they charge me $5 for a cold pill in the gift shop? YES! but I accept that. That is not a normal mark up. Its the max they think someone will pay for a cold pill.

 

[Purrrrfecta]

This argument comes up again and again. The bottom line is Disney does the dining plan because Disney is making money off the dining plan. Its not the cost of the meals its the draw of keeping you on the property. It is worth it to them. Before you even arrive, they have sold your family X amount of meals even if you don't use them all and I am sure a fair amount of people don't. No doubt the DDP is a great deal for us but please don't think Disney does the dining plan because they want to be nice. No matter how many ways someone can "exploit" the DDP Disney made their profit. Every loophole, every missed meal, every uneaten snack is figured in and if they missed something (which I doubt) they will change it so it is profitable.

Is Disney exploiting me when they charge me $5 for a cold pill in the gift shop? YES! but I accept that. That is not a normal mark up. Its the max they think someone will pay for a cold pill.

You could not have said this better, Penguin087!
I have the dining plan for 10 nights at $900.00. That is approximately $500.00 more than they got from me last year!

 

[LoriZH]

I have another question.

I know that you can't get an adult meal for a child at a TS restaurant, but can I possibly get an adult meal at a CS restaurant for my 8 year old. I hear about paying oop for kids meals but could you get away with getting a third adult meal and not a childs meal?

Thanks

Yes we did this once at CHH in MK, my ds wanted tuna and had no problem with it. You can just order it, they didn't ask if it were for adult or child, just ordered it.

 

[PrincessPaczki]

Hi!

thanks for this info...This whole post has been very interesting and informative,

 

[keishashadow]

Agree, very helpful to hear so many different interpretations of an ambiguously worded offering.

I'm starting to switch my impression that the whole "missing" adult/child credit issue in the brochure was, in fact, an intentional (but not stated - think hidden mickey LOL) feature of the DP.

If it was an inadverdent loophole, they could have easily let it run for '05 & re-word the fine print for '06 bookings.

Will post after we return from June trip...look forward to hearing other's experiences in the meantime

 

[superdiz]

Some of you have insanely good morals. I would use the credits for adult meals. And I wouldn't think twice about doing it. Guess I'm going to hell in a handbag!

 

[fakereadhed]

Some of you have insanely good morals. I would use the credits for adult meals. And I wouldn't think twice about doing it. Guess I'm going to hell in a handbag!

Is your purse big enough for me also? I don't even have kids on the child's plan and sometimes I feel guilty for even thinking it's ok.

What I don't understand is why some are on a Disney morals crusade. If you have certain values... they are yours, not necessarily everyone elses. And that includes some CM's.

 

[keishashadow]

Don't think it's a moral issue, just an "unclear description" of the plan.

Back in Jan/Feb '05 there was no brochure & we based our usage on what we were told by WTC CM & rest. waitstaff...adults use adult credits & children use children credits -no pooling allowed, children must order from childrens menu - PERIOD!

As the year passed, people reported other usage availability...nothing in writing to contradict. Did think WDW would shore-up the plan for this year...apparently not.

I'm not looking to get over or a license to print money (I am a Disney stockholder) but, I appreciate any savings I can garner on my trips. IMO, the problems w/creative usage is people's tendency to push the envelope too far (phantom children on ressies, etc.) & ruin a good thing.

Is your purse big enough for me also? I don't even have kids on the child's plan and sometimes I feel guilty for even thinking it's ok.

What I don't understand is why some are on a Disney morals crusade. If you have certain values... they are yours, not necessarily everyone elses. And that includes some CM's.