Freedom to Marry Day Protest Planned

You would think that conservatives would want us gays to get married. Think about it we would settle down, make the property values go up be productive in the community.

I guess if we cannot have basic rights we can just go back to our drug induced ways and throw wild sex parties on the front lawn for all to see.
(seriously isnt that what you think of us?)


See, I do not get it? How do i threaten you personally? Do you think once gay marriage passes and does become law we will then just want the wives of those around us? I really do not understand. If you believe it is a religious thing fine do not do it for you, but why must I follow your god?
 
In each of those stories, God (or metaphorical equivalent) is doing the judging. Yes, we shall be judged by God. But Jesus' instructions to us is not Judge Not.
Well, technically that's not true. In John 7:24, Jesus says to judge with a righteous judgment.
That verse tends to looked over while the other one gets tossed around a lot...and usually out of context, I might add.

Take it for what it's worth...the two verses usually are anyway. :)
 
Do you want to go back to how marriage always has been... .

I don't know about basas, but I know I sure don't. Yick. I liked being able to choose my husband, thanks. And not have to fight for his attention with a dozen other wives. ;)
 
Is the new conservative mantra....."Less government.....(except when we are
trying to impose our holier than thou moral authority) ?
 

Well, technically that's not true. In John 7:24, Jesus says to judge with a righteous judgment.
That verse tends to looked over while the other one gets tossed around a lot...and usually out of context, I might add.

Take it for what it's worth...the two verses usually are anyway. :)
God left us a complicated book. I don't believe we are supposed to find the one and only interpretation - but that each of us has to find our own. So I'm not saying you are wrong here - only that I get a very different message.

To me, the context of John 7 is very clear. Jesus is addressing people who are judging him at that moment. He is specifically addressing them - not mankind.

The context of Matthew 7 to me is equally clear - he is addressing all mankind.
 
By the way we are in WDW in August do any other pinko liberals happen to be going then?

This pinko liberal will be there for his honeymoon in August. (After his Catholic wedding. And STILL a pinko liberal. ;))
 
I get it, all arguments against the religion of homosexuality are hateful.

It is not love to tell a thief to keep stealing.
It is not love to tell an alcoholic to keep drinking.
It is not love to tell someone in a homosexual relationship to stay in it.

Amen.

It is love to tell someone in a homosexual relationship you are my brother and my equal and I will defend you against all tyranny whether that tyranny is wearing the mask of Godly love or naked in its evil.

Get thee behind me kkkristian.
 
For those who say that marriage as always been between a man an women , here is a very brief history lesson :

"A History of Gay Marriage

Copyright Rictor Norton. All rights reserved. This essay may not be republished without the permission of the author.

Consulting my Grand Larousse – and the Oxford English Dictionary for good measure – I discover that the word "marry" comes from the Latin term for "a husband" (maritus), which comes from the Latin word for "a man" (mas, maris). The notion of "marriage" therefore doesn't seem to refer to "wives".

I should have realized this from listening to Francesco Cavalli's early 17th century opera La Calisto, in which the chaste and elderly nymph Linfea (played by a man) sings to the satyr Satirino (played by a woman) those immortal words:

Amore ti prego
che vago e gradito
mi trovi, mi trovi
un marito

That is:

Love find me a husband
who's madly attractive,
whose young and who's active.

Theoretically a person who gets "married" may take either a husband or a wife. But if we look at the history of "marriage" ceremonies, we will note that the most common meaning is, indeed, "to take a husband".

This provokes a number of conclusions: (1) a woman may "marry" a husband; (2) a man may "marry" a husband; and (3) a woman may not "marry" a woman. That is, lesbians cannot "marry" one another without violating the laws of linguistics, but gay men can.

Male Brides

So much for words. Let us now peruse the tarnished pages of history. Gay men seem to have frequently married one another throughout history. In fact, in some societies marriages between gay men were officially recognized by the state, as in ancient Sparta, and on the Dorian island of Thera.

Much later, in 2nd century Rome, conjugal contracts between men of about the same age were ridiculed but legally binding. Such marriages were blessed by pagan religions, particularly sects of the Mother Goddess Cybele (imported from Asia Minor). At the ceremony, the bridal party consists entirely of men, who enter the temple and deck each other with "gay fillets round the forehead . . . and strings of orient perals." They light a torch in honor of the goddess and sacrifice a pregnant swine. One man gets up and chooses a husband for himself, and dances himself into a frenzy. Then he drinks deeply from a goblet in the shape of a large *****, flings the goblet away, strips off his clothes, and "takes the stole and flammea of a bride" and the two men are married.

The "bride" is a transvestite only for the duration of this ceremony, for in a deeply religious sense he has temporarily become the goddess at these holy rites. The other men sing a hymenal drinking-song, and then pair up amongst themselves to celebrate multiple nuptials by group sex (i.e. orgies). The following day the names of all the pairs are registered in legal records as formal marriages.

Many ancient writers, such as Strabo and Athenaeus, wrote that the Gauls or Celts commonly practised homosexuality. Aristotle wrote that the Celts "openly held in honor passionate friendship (synousia) between males". Diodorus Siculus wrote that "Although the Gauls have lovely women, they scarcely pay attention to them, but strangely crave male embraces (arrenon epiplokas). Resting on the ground on beasts' skins, they are accustomed to roll about with bedfellows (parakoitois) on either side." Later, Eusebius of Caesarea, wrote that "Among the Gauls, the young men marry each other (gamountai) with complete freedom. In doing this, they do not incur any reproach or blame, since this is done according to custom amongst them." Bardaisan of Edessa wrote that "In the countries of the north — in the lands of the Germans and those of their neighbors, handsome [noble] young men assume the role of wives [women] towards other men, and they celebrate marriage feasts."

The Mollies

Let us now leap ahead to early 18th century London, where gay men also got married, but without legal sanction. In the 1720s there were about 40 "molly houses" in central London, disorderly pubs or coffee houses where gay men (called "mollies") socialized, singing bawdy songs and dancing country dances while someone played the fiddle. Many of these gay clubs had a "Marrying Room" or "Chapel", where, according to witnesses, "They would go out by couples into another room on the same floor, to be married, as they called it, and when they came back they would tell what they had been doing." These marriages were not monogamous, and 18-year-old Ned Courtney was "helped to two or three Husbands" in the Marrying Room of the Royal Oak at the corner of St James's Square, Pall Mall.

Sometimes the ceremony was more formal. One "Wedding Night" in 1728 included two men acting as "Bridesmaids" as well as the bridal couple. Though transvestism does not seem to have been practised at such ceremonies, both men, as well as most other mollies, would adopt a "Maiden Name". Men who formed such marriages included St Dunstan's Kate and Madam Blackwell; Mademoiselle Gent (alias Willian Gent) and John Whale (alias Peggy Whale); and Aunt May (an upholsterer) and Dip-Candle Mary (a tallow-chandler). In spite of these maiden names – which both partners assumed – there is no indication of male-female role playing, for both men referred to their partner as a "Husband". The term "wife" was never used among gay men.

Molly marriages didn't have the blessing of any church until the 1810s, when Rev John Church officiated as the "Chaplain" at male gay marriages at The Swan in Vere Street. Some of the members of this gay brothel were Miss Selina, a police constable; Black-Eyed Leonora, a Drummer of the Guards; and Miss Sweet Lips, a country grocer. Rev Church, a Baptist, also presided at gay funerals, for example the burial of Richard Oakden, hanged for sodomy on November 15, 1809. Church himself was sent to prison for two years in 1817.

American Indians

Let us now leap across the waters to look at gay marriages among the American Indians, particularly the Sioux and the Cheyenne. In most such marriages one of the two men was a berdache, a transvestite/medicine man who wore men's clothes only when he joined a war party, where he cared for the wounded. The berdaches were especially popular with young people, for they were excellent matchmakers – in a sense they personified the very concept of marriage – and fine love talkers. They got married to either the loafers of the village, or would become the second or third "wife" of the chieftain. Usually their husbands were more ridiculed than they themselves were, not because of homosexuality, which Indians generally tolerated, but because such husbands usually abandoned their economic status in society, and let the berdache do all the work to create the model household.

One of the more famous berdaches was Yellow Head of the Cheyenne, who became the third wife of Chief Wagetote after being rejected by the white mountaineer John Tanner. Even today there are still some berdaches, called winktes among the Sioux, or "two-spirit" persons, but most of them have disappeared, as Indians on the reservations give up their old ways and adopt the civilization of the white man.

Imitations

In all these cultures and periods there's no hard and fast evidence that gay marriages are "imitations" of heterosexual marriages. The truth of the matter may be quite different: heterosexual marriage is very likely an imitation of what is essentially a homosexual mating pattern.

The most primitive forms of marriage ceremonies (see Marie Delcourt's book Hermaphrodite, 1961) always involved transvestism and group sex, and were seldom exclusively heterosexual. In modern marriage ceremonies the bridal gown has been important precisely because it originated in the holy robe donned by a male transvestite worshipper of the Mother Goddess. The "Best Man" – who is quite unnecessary if the ceremony were essentially heterosexual – is the hold-over from the days when it was he who married the Groom. That is, the Bride and Best Man are really the same person, a symbolic split of the male spouse before and after donning the veil for the ceremony. The ring that the Best Man bears is the sublimated remains of the phallic goblet in the cult of Cybele.

Within the field of mythology – which contains memories of a prehistoric past – unions between men and women are rare or nonexistent until faily modern times, although unions between men are always a central feature of the earliest cultural sagas. (Theodor Gaster in Thespis says that marriage doesn't occur at all in ancient near-eastern myths from 3300 BC to 400 BC.) Anthropologists have discovered that the primary social bond among primates is the same-sex one between males, and usually involves actual sex (see Lionel Tiger, Men in Groups, 1969). Modern psychologists are increasingly recognizing that the most lasting and genuine emotional attachments are not between heterosexual husbands and wives, but between men and their menfriends, and women and their womenfriends.

I'm vastly amused whenever I observe a man and a woman trying to achieve between themselves that degree of intimacy that is only possible between pesons of the same gender. It's even more touching to watch their attempts to found a friendship upon the rutting instinct. It simply cannot be done. However much heterosexuals try to compensate for the failures of their own marriages by projecting their frustrations upon homosexuals, they'll never overcome the probability that heterosexual "romance" is a cultural superfluity.

CITATION: If you cite this Web page, please use the following citation:
Rictor Norton, "Taking a 'Husband': A History of Gay Marriage", Queer Culture. 21 February 2004, amended 3 February 2006 <http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/marriage.htm>."
 
People are People
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully

So we're different colors
And we're different creeds
And different people have different needs
It's obvious you hate me
Though I've done nothing wrong
I've never even met you so what could I have done

I can't understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand

Help me understand

Now you're punching
And you're kicking
And you're shouting at me
I'm relying on your common decency
So far it hasn't surfaced
But I'm sure it exists
It just takes a while to travel
From your head to your fist
:banana:

OH MY GOD! Depeche Mode, from the CD with Somebody and It Doesn't Matter, my two favorite songs in the whole wide world!
 
Exactly.

What I find funny is how Liberals blame Conservatives for wanting to ‘ban’ or disallow gay marriage as if it was once allowed (until the evil ‘Bush’ came to power, anyway), when, in reality, it’s the other way around. Liberals are the ones wanting to change the way society has functioned for hundreds of years and the union between 1 man and 1 woman that has been the definition of marriage for ever. Well, maybe I’d like to open the dictionary are pick random words I want to change the definitions of! While we’re at it, can we change the definition of divorce to include when our pets are running away from home? I mean…divorce never really meant anything of the sort, but it would only be fair to get some kind of ‘support payment’, right?


This is not about semantics and to boil this very important human rights issue down to dictionary definitions is just naive and simple.

As I mentioned before, right now it's fine for you (the general you, who voted to ban gay marriage all over the country) but someday it will be you (again, general) in the minority fighting to protect your rights from the mob. I find the tunnel vision unbelievably sad.
 
OH MY GOD! Depeche Mode, from the CD with Somebody and It Doesn't Matter, my two favorite songs in the whole wide world!

Yaaay!!! Everyone in this thread is a little gayer than they were before this song was posted. Tomorrow the men will have a confounding need to see Funny Girl, exfoliate, moisturize and buy a throw to elegantly drape over their newly purchased chaise lounge that sits in the parlor (haistily converted den) where Elton John gently sets the mood for the glamorous cocktail party that will commense around 6ish.
 
However, many Christians have also been taught that marriage is between a man and a women and that it is sacred. Many Christians also believe their religion tells them that homosexuality is wrong. How then do you expect them to turn around and support gay marriage when all their values tell them they cannot?

I really try to be tolerant of other beliefs, but I just cannot stand by and let people get by with the above nonsense. Frankly, your fairytale means absolutely nothing to me, nothing. I fail to see why your fairytale should dictate the love and sex lives of thousands and thousands of people who do not believe in your fairytale.

Remember, as I just said, it is not Christians all of a sudden trying to ban gays from marrying. In fact, they don’t want to change anything. It is the LEFT who want to change the definition of a word which has meant the same thing for hundreds of years.

Speaking of definitions, you will find that the word "marriage" has several different meanings, not all of them having to do with one man and one woman. It basically means "join together" Although it does have several entries concerning just a man and a woman, it also has several more having to do with MORE than that one narrow definition. From dictionary.com:

mar·riage /ˈmærɪdʒ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mar-ij] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.
2. the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: a happy marriage.
3. the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of a man and woman to live as husband and wife, including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage.
4. a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage; homosexual marriage.
5. any close or intimate association or union: the marriage of words and music in a hit song.
6. a formal agreement between two companies or enterprises to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger.
7. a blending or matching of different elements or components: The new lipstick is a beautiful marriage of fragrance and texture.
8. Cards. a meld of the king and queen of a suit, as in pinochle. Compare royal marriage.
9. a piece of antique furniture assembled from components of two or more authentic pieces.
10. Obsolete. the formal declaration or contract by which act a man and a woman join in wedlock.


How now, all of a sudden, in 2007, are we ‘standing in judgment of others’?

Same way that "all of a sudden" people realized that the Earth was NOT the center of the universe and that it was NOT in fact flat. We grow up as a culture, we become less steeped in superstition and we open our minds to something other than our own self interests. You are free to think whatever you want about homosexuality, but you are NOT free to impose that belief on other people.
 
i will *never* understand the opposition of government recognized gay marriage. if religious people "allow" heathen atheists like me to be married by the state, why not gay people? state recognition of gay marriage has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with religion...

i wonder how many people opposed to gay marriage feel that my husband and i should not be guaranteed government rights provided to married people because our marriage was not religiously sanctioned in any way.

i just REALLY do not get opposition to civil gay marriage.
 
Did we change the definition of 'slavery' or ‘voting’? Yes, changes happen over time. Perhaps even gay unions are created to give similar benefits; however, we should not change a definition which has remained constant for hundreds of years.

Give me a break, the history of marriage has changed and evolved and doesn't even mean the same thing from culture to culture today. Marriage is not some ancient bedrock of unchanged history.
 
God left us a complicated book. I don't believe we are supposed to find the one and only interpretation - but that each of us has to find our own. So I'm not saying you are wrong here - only that I get a very different message.

To me, the context of John 7 is very clear. Jesus is addressing people who are judging him at that moment. He is specifically addressing them - not mankind.

The context of Matthew 7 to me is equally clear - he is addressing all mankind.
Actually, in both passages, Jesus is speaking to specific people (the first passage is a multitude, but they are still a specific group of people...since Jesus was not speaking the words directly to 21st century Christians). Both texts can be applied to all mankind, however.

With the "judge not" passage, it is really referring to matters of the heart...for example, it is not my place to condemn someone to hell. I can be an example of Christ to people, but I cannot sentence them to hell. For the "judge with a righteous judgement", it is more about not judging people on outside appearances, but rather basing your opinions on what you actually know. For example, meeting someone who dresses like a "thug" doesn't automatically make them a thug. Does that make sense?

With a husband in seminary, I believe that there is only one correct interpretation...that's God's interpretation. And I say that because people take can one verse and decide what it means for whatever reason they wish to bend it for. Problem is that the are not looking at it from the context it is written...or even in the languages they were written in (which in Greek & Hebrew, the way it's written gives a BIG indication of how the verses are to be interpreted...and trust me, we're all about the languages here as DH is studying on them like crazy :scared:) However, I also believe that there are multiple applications for verses, which seems like that's what you mean more than interpretation. To give a simplified explanation...let's say a verse was written in Hebrew to say "sit in the chair." It can only be interpreted as "sit in the chair." But the application might be different. Is it sit in the chair with your legs crossed? Sit in the chair with one leg tucked under? Etc? Well, all of them can be equally fine...after all, you're still sitting in the chair.

But anyway, I think what I just said it really more of a long explanation...but it seems like you and I agree that both texts can be applied in different situations. I just think that both sides of the fence should be careful before throwing around verses. The Bible is not meant as a weapon. It is a Book proclaiming the gift Christ is giving to mankind. It is not a Book meant to be used to force people to God. Yes, I believe Christians should stand up for what they believe in, just like anyone else...but they should also remember that God is not a dictator. He wants people to choose Him, not for them to be forced or threatened into Christianity.
 
Yaaay!!! Everyone in this thread is a little gayer than they were before this song was posted. Tomorrow the men will have a confounding need to see Funny Girl, exfoliate, moisturize and buy a throw to elegantly drape over their newly purchased chaise lounge that sits in the parlor (haistily converted den) where Elton John gently sets the mood for the glamorous cocktail party that will commense around 6ish.

When my husband proposed to me, it was on a beach, after listening to me sing "somebody" to him (and not particularly well, either) so I have a very special little place in my heart for that CD. I was not being corny by singing it, it was just in my head because we were listening to it in the car on the way up the coast. :)
 
...

But anyway, I think what I just said it really more of a long explanation...but it seems like you and I agree that both texts can be applied in different situations. I just think that both sides of the fence should be careful before throwing around verses. The Bible is not meant as a weapon. It is a Book proclaiming the gift Christ is giving to mankind. It is not a Book meant to be used to force people to God. Yes, I believe Christians should stand up for what they believe in, just like anyone else...but they should also remember that God is not a dictator. He wants people to choose Him, not for them to be forced or threatened into Christianity.

Thank you - well said. I totally agree.
 
When my husband proposed to me, it was on a beach, after listening to me sing "somebody" to him (and not particularly well, either) so I have a very special little place in my heart for that CD. I was not being corny by singing it, it was just in my head because we were listening to it in the car on the way up the coast. :)

That is truly sweet. I love Depeche because they remind me of one of my best friends. We used to listen to them a lot in the lunchroom. We were soooo filled with faux teenaged angst and they were a big part of our sound track.:rolleyes:
 
Another bit :


"One of the recurring clichés of the same-sex marriage debate is that the very notion of such a thing is a radical departure from anything entertained before in human history. Nothing, however, could be further from the truth. In many cultures and in many eras, the issue has emerged-and the themes of the arguments are quirkily similar. Same-sex love, as Plato's Symposium shows, is as ancient as human love, and the question of how it is recognized and understood has bedeviled every human civilization. In most, it has never taken the form of the modern institution of marriage, but in some, surprisingly, it has. In seventeenth-century China and nineteenth-century Africa, for example, the institution seems identical to opposite-sex marriage. In other cultures (see the debate between Brent Shaw and Ralph Hexter) the meaning of same-sex unions remains opaque and complex. In Native American society, marriage between two men was commonplace, but its similarity to contemporary lesbian and gay marriages is far from evident. And today in a number of foreign countries, laws extending civil marriage to gay and lesbian couples have been or will soon be enacted. Judge for yourself what this might mean for our current convulsion. One thing emerges clearly: this issue is not a modern invention. The need to balance human dignity and social norms is as old as civilization itself. Although much of the past history of this debate has been buried until recently, it has begun to emerge again with all the passion that now crackles through modern Western culture."


from:http://www.enotalone.com/article/4358.html


and :

"But this is just not true, Governor. You invoke "History" as though it's some source of authority, but you really don't know much about it, do you? "No investigation, no right to speak," I always say, and if you want to talk about homosexual unions in recorded history you should do some study first. First I recommend you read John Boswell's fine book Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality (University of Chicago Press, 1980), in which he documents legally recognized homosexual marriage in ancient Rome extending into the Christian period, and his Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe (Villard Books, 1994), in which he discusses Church-blessed same-sex unions and even an ancient Christian same-sex nuptial liturgy. Then check out my Male Colors: The Construction of Homosexuality in Tokugawa Japan (University of California Press, 1995) in which I describe the "brotherhood-bonds" between samurai males, involving written contracts and sometimes severe punishments for infidelity, in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Check out the literature on the Azande of the southern Sudan, where for centuries warriors bonded, in all legitimacy, with "boy-wives." Or read Marjorie Topley's study of lesbian marriages in Guangdong, China into the early twentieth century. Check out Yale law professor William Eskridge's The Case for Same-Sex Marriage (1996), and other of this scholar's works, replete with many historical examples.

...

What the study of world history will really tell you, Governor, is that pretty much any kind of sexual behavior can become institutionalized somewhere, sometime. You know that polygamy remains normal and legal in many nations, as it was among your Mormon forebears in Utah. In Tibet, polyandry has a long history, and modern Chinese law seems powerless to prevent marriages between one women and two or three men. Getting back to same-sex issues, the Sambia of New Guinea have traditionally believed that for an adolescent boy to grow into a man, he absolutely must fellate an adult male and chug the semen down. I'm not making this up; see Gilbert H. Herdt, Guardians of the Flutes (Columbia University Press, 1981). Now you and I would see that as a kind of child abuse, but to the Sambians, it's just common sense. It's been that way for well over 3,000 years of their history. (You might want to ask yourself: does that 3,000 year record make it right?) Some ancient Greek tribes had a similar notion of the necessary reception of semen to make a boy a man, only with them it was an anal-routed process. (See works by Jan Bremmer, for starters, on this practice as an "initiation rite" among various Indo-European peoples.)

...Over the last 3,000 years to which you specifically allude (someone else was telling National Public Radio that the Supreme Justice Court ruling defied 5,000 years, which would make departure from precedent even more serious), there has in fact been no global marriage norm. In some societies, a man and woman, of their own free will, formed a relationship, decided to forge a life-long commitment, got the necessary permissions and ceremonial legitimacy, started having sex after that, and maintained a monogamous union thereafter until one died. That's been very unusual, though. Arranged marriages involving varying degrees of input by the couple (usually less by the female) have been more the norm. (Do you realize, Governor, how radically sections of humankind departed from the prior "history" you so validate, when we started insisting on the freedom of young couples to marry without their parent's consent, and to do so based on "love"---which is another complex and evolving historical category? You might perhaps read Friedrich Engels' still relevant book The Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State, and learn something about how capitalism and the whole notion of the free market played a positive role here.)

...

The freedom to link yourself to another, and benefit from whatever range of privileges your political and cultural environment confer on "marriage," should not be arbitrarily confined to males who are attracted to females, and to females attracted to males. Even if that premise had, in fact, as you suggest, prevailed since the dawn of civilization, it would be irrational. If history (with a capital H), has any function at all, it is to induce people, merely through cumulative experience, to get more rational, and thereby alleviate the kinds of suffering they can inflict upon themselves. Recognition of gay marriage is a step towards recognizing reality, and alleviating the oppression homophobic ignorance and hatred inevitably inflict. That's the reasoning behind the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts' ruling."


From:http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp12132003.html




...
 
He wants people to choose Him, not for them to be forced or threatened into Christianity.

Actually, I disagree with this. I think christinaity is VERY "carrot on a stick" It's believe this and get eternal life or DON'T believe it and burn in hell for eternity.


I think it's why this issue is so heated, because most honest with themselves Christians think they are doing man kind a favor by trying to force them into the religion, otherwise the heathens will go to hell.

My very, very born again brother will, with the sincerest of intentions, tell me, his mostly agnostic sister, that I am going to go to hell. He's so damn sure of it and he's so sincere in his concern for me that I just can't be mad at him for it. He really, really believes it. Let's face it, if someone believes that the bible is the word of god, what else can they believe? I just don't believe it, I really don't, and believe me, I tried to MAKE myself believe it, but it's like putting the toothpase back in the tube, once I doubted, it was all over. So, coming from it, brought up in it, I understand the fervor, but I cannot abide by blatant discrimination nor can I abide by bigots using this religion, with it's good intentions, to be so hateful.
 














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