Freedom to Marry Day Protest Planned

[Laura]

I'm aware of the context. However, Jesus was quoting the Father re: the first marriage.

Jesus said Moses gave the people divorce because they were hard-headed. It's not pleasing to the Father.

In our church, divorcees are not allowed to serve in leadership positions unless it was a case of infidelity on the part of the spouse (as designated in Scripture). It's rare that it's allowed. An openly gay member would be treated the same way. Come worship & fellowship with us, but don't expect a leadership role.

I know you're aware of why Jesus made that statement, but it doesn't say that only men and women could get married. In his day, only men and women did, and gays weren't even out or they'd be stoned. Jesus was quoting Genesis where it says God made us in his image, male and female. It didn't say in Genesis that only male and female could marry.

It still doesn't answer why some Christian churches permit divorce. I know it's not the same across denominations, but it seems every church has its own rule.

 

[jimmiej]

I know you're aware of why Jesus made that statement, but it doesn't say that only men and women could get married. In his day, only men and women did, and gays weren't even out or they'd be stoned. Jesus was quoting Genesis where it says God made us in his image, male and female. It didn't say in Genesis that only male and female could marry.

It still doesn't answer why some Christian churches permit divorce. I know it's not the same across denominations, but it seems every church has its own rule.

As I said in my earlier post, reading the Bible cover to cover will give a clear indication of God's intention for marriage.

Of course, I can't answer for ALL churches, only my own. However, each church, it's pastor/priest, other leadership, will have to answer to God for their actions. The Revelation 1-3 shows that God was pleased with some aspects of the churches, & quite angry with others. Each church, indeed each believer has to interpret the Scripture as led by the Spirit. In today's world, Study Bibles are readily available to help believers exam original intent & original language.

 

[LuvDuke]

Abba

Judy not-so-much

It must be generational.

 

[Laura]

As I said in my earlier post, reading the Bible cover to cover will give a clear indication of God's intention for marriage.

Ah, but so much of the Bible became obsolete when Jesus arrived, didn't he? I understand that's your belief. Leviticus and all its regulations don't count any more. Jewish denominations come to different conclusions, what's more (Reform says okay, Orthodox says no way). So you look to the New Testament, and its stunning lack of comment on homosexuality.

Of course, I can't answer for ALL churches, only my own. However, each church, it's pastor/priest, other leadership, will have to answer to God for their actions. The Revelation 1-3 shows that God was pleased with some aspects of the churches, & quite angry with others. Each church, indeed each believer has to interpret the Scripture as led by the Spirit. In today's world, Study Bibles are readily available to help believers exam original intent & original language.

No, I wasn't expecting you to answer necessarily. I haven't seen anyone else speak up for divorce in a Christian denomination where it didn't include infidelity. Every Christian believes his/her denomination is the right one, I guess.

I just don't see massive Christian protests requesting that divorce be outlawed in the USA.

 

[JunieJay]

I have a serious question for those who feel gays shouldn't marry because the bible says so, how do you pick and choose which parts of the bible to take to heart? I mean, there are all sorts of passages about slaves obeying their masters, wives obeying their husbands, there is even a verse that says women shouldn't wear gold jewelry or braid their hair.

Could it be, maybe, some of you just find the passages that back up your strongest personal beliefs?

Still waiting on an answer to this question I posed a while ago.

Then again it seems like I asked this question when I first joined the DIS about 8 years ago, and have yet to hear the answer......

 

[jimmiej]

So, the shaving of beards and eating of seafood -- also abominations if I recall correctly -- are lifestyle choices that should also be condemned and not given shelter under the laws of the land?

Those laws were for the Jews. They have nothing to do with living a Christian life.

Mark 7

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

I have a serious question for those who feel gays shouldn't marry because the bible says so, how do you pick and choose which parts of the bible to take to heart? I mean, there are all sorts of passages about slaves obeying their masters, wives obeying their husbands, there is even a verse that says women shouldn't wear gold jewelry or braid their hair.

Could it be, maybe, some of you just find the passages that back up your strongest personal beliefs?

Cafeteria Christians. Not good.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[MassJester]

Those laws were for the Jews. They have nothing to do with living a Christian life.

Mark 7

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")




Cafeteria Christians. Not good.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So, what about the shaving thing, or the entire old testament null and void?

 

[cardaway]

Still waiting on an answer to this question I posed a while ago.

Then again it seems like I asked this question when I first joined the DIS about 8 years ago, and have yet to hear the answer......

It appears to be entirely OK for some Christians to say one must read the entire bible in one post and then in the next point out how the OT doesn't apply.

You really can't make this stuff up.

 

[jimmiej]

Ah, but so much of the Bible became obsolete when Jesus arrived, didn't he? I understand that's your belief. Leviticus and all its regulations don't count any more. Jewish denominations come to different conclusions, what's more (Reform says okay, Orthodox says no way). So you look to the New Testament, and its stunning lack of comment on homosexuality.

Actually, only a small part. Jesus himself quoted (OT) Scripture.

Romans 1 & I Corinthians 6 refer to homosexual acts & homosexuals.

I just don't see massive Christian protests requesting that divorce be outlawed in the USA.

Scripture doesn't appear to say we should.

 

[JunieJay]

Cafeteria Christians. Not good.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So the way I am reading that passage is God's word as written in the Bible is infallible but humans are capable of misinterpretation.

Kind of boils down to picking and choosing based on personal belief, no?

 

[MassJester]

Actually, only a small part. Jesus himself quoted (OT) Scripture.

Ahh, finally, an authority. Could you let us know which parts of the Old Testament are to be ignored, and which ones are still good?

 

[jimmiej]

So, what about the shaving thing, or the entire old testament null and void?

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

 

[MassJester]

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Looks like you've quoted it accurately; so what is the point?

 

[salmoneous]

Mark 10 6"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 7'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Mark 10 talks about orphans getting married as much as it talks about gay marriage

A cover to cover reading of the Bible will give you the strong impression that God created marriage to be one man/one woman.

A cover to cover marriage will give you the impression that God is fine with polygamy, sexual surrogates, and all sorts of arrangements other than one man / one woman.

As a follower of Jesus Christ, I struggle with this issue. On one hand, I should not judge others & as an American, do I have the right to deny someone's happiness? On the flip side, I believe the Bible is clear homosexual acts are sinful. Would Christ look favorably upon me (and in a larger sense, America) giving my stamp of approval on gay marriage?

Legalizing gay marriage isn't giving your approval for gay marriage. There is no bigger sin than, say, being a Hindu. Would you vote for a law that would make being a Hindu illegal? Would you vote for a law that would ban Hindu's from marring?

Even if you find being gay to be sinful, shouldn't gays be treated like every other sinner under the law?

Note - being glad that it hasn't come up, is the same things as being glad that it's illegal - no?

Note - I've always appreciated you thoughts and the way you express them on the subject, even if I disagree.

 

[jimmiej]

So the way I am reading that passage is God's word as written in the Bible is infallible but humans are capable of misinterpretation.

Kind of boils down to picking and choosing based on personal belief, no?

Scripture tells us the Holy Spirit will help us interpret the meaning. However, as I said before, Study Bibles are readily available to all who seek them Biblical scholars have looked at the original language to show intent.

 

[salmoneous]

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

I'd be real careful with such ideas. They have to be taken in Context with Matthew 5:17-19

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall abreak one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[salmoneous]

Scripture doesn't appear to say we should.

Nor does scripture say Christians should oppose the government legalizing gay marriage.

 

[jimmiej]

Ahh, finally, an authority. Could you let us know which parts of the Old Testament are to be ignored, and which ones are still good?

Laws re: Jewish living, sanctification, sacrifices, etc. Those in the OT lived under the law & showed their faithfullness to God by living these laws out. After Jesus, we are now under grace. We believe Jesus was the ultimate & final sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin.

Course, if you're not a Christian, you can ignore it all.

 

[cardaway]

Scripture tells us the Holy Spirit will help us interpret the meaning. However, as I said before, Study Bibles are readily available to all who seek them Biblical scholars have looked at the original language to show intent.

But what about the biblical scholars that disagree with you? Or do they not count?

 

[MassJester]

Scripture tells us the Holy Spirit will help us interpret the meaning. However, as I said before, Study Bibles are readily available to all who seek them Biblical scholars have looked at the original language to show intent.

Well of course there are study bibles (and many other sources including some excellent schlarly journals) that attempt exegetic analysis of scripture. Considering that particular hobby has been ongoing since before the Council of Trent, it's a little disingenuous to pass all of this off as a simple matter of applying ones self to understand.

The great ironic historical example of how "unclear" it is can be found in the Protestant Reformation. The fundamental principle was that the Roman Church had failed to follow scripture, and by following the clear meaning of the scriptures a true path could be found. Of course, the Protestant sects couldn't agree on what the clear meaning is and so they split and formed different chruches.

In a vain attempt to get back on topic:

The laws of the Christian faith, diversely interpreted as they are, make for a pretty unstable platform upon which to buid policy on any issue.