Food for Thought - Political Thread

[WillyJ]

O'Neal was a stooge for Nixon and Chuck Colson and has been out to get Kerry for 30-years. . .



Maggie (Saffron) posted the entire transcript of Kerry's senate testimony here . It's about the middle of the page. .


It's long but when you get the chance you might read what he actually said and compare it to what these people and the Right-wing talking-heads claim he said. .

I've heard Beck and Ingram and Linmbaugh play exerpts of the testimony which make it sound like Kerry is accusing other soldiers of atrocities. . but as you can see he is clearly relaying testimony he heard from other vets at a hearing in Detroit months earlier. . .

Of course the talk-show hosts leave the beginning out. Why? Because they know they can't convince anyone of their viewpoint with the truth so they have to lie. . .


Kbeverina,

I think the most accurate way to phrase it would be to say that the men who served with Kerry on the same boat support what the military records say about Kerry's service. .


Some of the SBV who served in the same area and the rest who served during the same time period claim the records are false.. except they have no proof of their claims, and some have already changed their origiinal statements.

And I think since the majority waited until Kerry was in the middle of a Presidential campaign to come forward, it is without a doubt about politics. .

 

[Bobbles]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
My vacation to Disney World is just too close for me to bother with debating. I gave my opinion, why don't you just give yours?

Have fun!

Oh sorry! I thought I did.
Perhaps you just missed it in your visit to WDW clouding your vision.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by Bobbles
Oh sorry! I thought I did.
Perhaps you just missed it in your visit to WDW clouding your vision.

Maybe but it did appear to me that instead of answering the OP's question with your opinion on the matter, you decided to comment on my opinion. Whatever. I really do not care! I'm on cloud 9 today!

Carry on!

 

[Teejay32]

Originally posted by WillyJ
It's long but when you get the chance you might read what he actually said and compare it to what these people and the Right-wing talking-heads claim he said. .

I've heard Beck and Ingram and Linmbaugh play exerpts of the testimony which make it sound like Kerry is accusing other soldiers of atrocities. . but as you can see he is clearly relaying testimony he heard from other vets at a hearing in Detroit months earlier. . .

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/25/hughes.kerry.vietnam/

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50-caliber machine guns which were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages," Kerry said in 1971.

That's from CNN.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Teejay32
That's from CNN.

He's talking about the atrocities of war, teejay, not "war crimes". He's saying that the practice of burning villages...the "free fire" zones...those were things that he considered to be atrocities, as would anyone that participated in them, I would think. Hell, even if he was talking only of the man he chased down and killed that was pointing an RPG at his boat, that in itself would be enough to affect a lot of people in a very negative way. It's a VERY long way from your quote to saying he committed "war crimes", as Kendra has been doing for the past few days.

 

[peachgirl]

It would be much more honest to post the entire portion of that statement that is relevent.

First, WilliJ was referring to the sworn testimony Kerry gave and as you know, your "sound bite" is not in the sworn testimony. It comes from a Meet The Press interview done in 1971.

Here's the entire portion that deals with the sound bite you posted:

"In an interview on NBC's "Meet The Press" last Sunday, Kerry was asked about statements he made about Vietnam War atrocities during an interview with the same program in 1971, when he was a leader in the antiwar movement:

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50-caliber machine guns which were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages," Kerry said in 1971.



Kerry told NBC last week that his use of the word "atrocity" was "inappropriate" and that the language he had used "reflected an anger. It was honest, but it was in anger. It was a little bit excessive."

He also said he never intended to cast a negative light on the soldiers with whom he served.

In 1971, Kerry also testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and recited a litany of atrocities and war crimes he said had been reported to him by other soldiers.
He said those included rapes, mutilations, torture and random shootings of civilians. He did not claim to have personally witnessed or been involved in such acts."


So, it's just as WilliJ said. Never in his testimony did he ever claim to have engaged in or personally witnessed true war "atrocities" that rise to the level of being war crimes.

There are all kinds of atrocities

This part is key. Of course there are all kinds of atrocities and they aren't all war crimes. Personally, I think posting bits and pieces in an effort to mislead is atrocious...but it's not a war crime.

The "atrocities" that Kerry spoke of on Meet the Press are not the types of "atrocities" that are considered war crimes.

Nice try, but the point still stands. As someone else asked, I'd love for anyone who has claimed Kerry said he engaged in atrocities that rise to the level of war crimes to point out exactly where he ever said it.

It's just another lie in a long line of lies.

When are the Republicans going to stop with the smear campaign and actually address the issues???
<center><IMG width="200" SRC=http://www.seeyageorge.com/shop/images/11.jpg></center> He did not claim to have personally witnessed or been involved in such acts."

 

[wvrevy]

More about the Lying Swifties for Bush:
(From a Salon.com article)
--------------
"Unfit for Command" and the veterans group behind it are facing questions Thursday after the Washington Post torpedoed the veracity of one of its key members. Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has insisted Kerry lied about the circumstances surrounding his Bronze Star award, claiming Kerry's boat never came under enemy fire on March 13, 1969, the day an injured Kerry leaned overboard to scoop wounded Green Beret Larry Rassmann out of the river. But contrary to Thurlow's claim, the Washington Post has reported today that according to his own military files, which recorded the events of March 13, 1969, "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" were directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla, including Kerry's.

Earlier, Retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, chairman and co-founder of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, flip-flopped on a key element of his Kerry story. In May, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported, "Hoffmann acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally." But with the pending publication of "Unfit for Command," Hoffmann changed his story, insisting he "knew [Kerry] well."

Hoffmann wasn't alone in reversing his story on the Kerry attack. In 1968, Grant Hibbard, a lieutenant commander in Vietnam during Kerry's tour, described Kerry favorably: "One of the top few in his willingness to seek and accept responsibility." But now he claims Kerry lied about his service. Another vocal Kerry critic, Capt. George Elliot, who served in Vietnam at the same time Kerry did, praised Kerry both in a 1968 evaluation ("In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, Lieutenant Junior Grade Kerry was unsurpassed") and as recently as 1996 when Elliot publicly praised Kerry for charging after the enemy.
-------------------------------
Hmmm....Wonder when we can expect an apology from the Bush camp for funding these lying scumbags? Kerry ought to sue them AND their Bush supporting financiers for slander.

 

[peachgirl]

.Wonder when we can expect an apology from the Bush camp for funding these lying scumbags? Kerry ought to sue them AND their Bush supporting financiers for slander.

They don't have time to apologize. They're too busy scouring around trying to find their next pack of lies since these aren't working out.


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[faithinkarma]

The NY Times ran a story this morning doing an excellent job of outing the lies, and the ties of these swift boat vets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?pagewanted=4&th

 

[Teejay32]

Originally posted by wvrevy
It's a VERY long way from your quote to saying he committed "war crimes", as Kendra has been doing for the past few days.

I am not Kendra, and I said just a few posts ago that Kerry implicated his own men in those actions along with himself. We're discussing why a bunch of Vietnam vets would have a grudge against Kerry. Kerry makes those statements about things he participated in. Other guys were saying, essentially, "oh we did? What? Where?"

Kerry's about 60 years old, he's been a Senator for umpteen years, he's worth about 600 million dollars...he's a big boy now, and doesn't need a roving pack of hysterical Democrats protecting him from questions about a mess of his own making. Deal with it already.

 

[faithinkarma]

ROFL sorry, But the president is criss crossing the country holding rallies where only supporters and bussed in people are allowed in. Where "questions" from this partisan audience are statements of praise for the president, and you want Kerry to act like a big boy and deal with things. Whatever !

 

[peachgirl]

Kerry's about 60 years old, he's been a Senator for umpteen years, he's worth about 600 million dollars...he's a big boy now, and doesn't need a roving pack of hysterical Democrats protecting him from questions about a mess of his own making. Deal with it already.

My, my, Republicans get testy when they're painted into a corner.

How about addressing the post where you were so misleading in your quote?

Why do you post things that you know are misleading and then once they're disputed you never respond?

I find it disgusting that for weeks we have had to sit back while Kerry was being called everything from a war criminal to a coward by a roving pack of hysterical Republicans and now that it's being proven to be just the lie we said it was, we're the ones who aren't dealing with it???

I suggest that you are the one who needs to deal with the fact that the Republicans will stoop as low as they have to go to win and that Bush will, by his refusal to denounce them, allow it to go on.

That's a much tougher fact to deal with than any accusation thrown at Kerry.

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[Teejay32]

Neither Bush nor Kerry has ANY right to tell anyone to sit down and shut up.

I haven't been misleading. No idea what you're talking about.

 

[peachgirl]

I haven't been misleading. No idea what you're talking about.

Oh sure you do, TeeJay.

WilliJ posted this:

"Originally posted by WillyJ
It's long but when you get the chance you might read what he actually said and compare it to what these people and the Right-wing talking-heads claim he said. .

I've heard Beck and Ingram and Linmbaugh play exerpts of the testimony which make it sound like Kerry is accusing other soldiers of atrocities. . but as you can see he is clearly relaying testimony he heard from other vets at a hearing in Detroit months earlier. . ."

And you responded with this:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/25/hughes.kerry.vietnam/

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50-caliber machine guns which were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages," Kerry said in 1971.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's from CNN.

You posted that to disprove WilliJ's claim but you knew full well that it wasn't from the transcripts of Kerry's testimony.

That was misleading...but then Republicans are good at that, aren't they?
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[Teejay32]

And....why do I care what is actual testimony and what isn't. He said "I participated." On TV, I guess. Meaning, that's what he, his unit, thousands of other soldiers did. You don't think he should be called on to explain it isn't true, or if God forbid some fellow soldier has a little problem with his interpretation?

I did miss something of yours earlier:

"He also said he never intended to cast a negative light on the soldiers with whom he served."

That's a lie, the most obnoxious one yet and I almost missed it. He went way out of his way to cast a negative light on soldiers in general - his comments, his stupid little "New Soldier" book, his Winter Soldier Investigation performance...and even in his actual testimony I think, going on about "misfits." How dumb does he think people are.

 

[peachgirl]

And....why do I care what is actual testimony and what isn't.

Obviously, you don't.

He said "I participated."

Oh excellent, now not only do you want to post just little snippets of what he says, you want to narrow it down to 2 words.

Gee, I think I'll go hunting for a sentence where Bush says "I took" and accuse him of being a thief.

How dumb does he think people are.

Not nearly as stupid as those veterans who thought they could pull this one over without being outed.

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[captin fink]

By faithinkarma
The problem with the swift boat vets money is that it comes mostly in one lump sum from one person...hardly the same as the nickle and diming done by move on

SBVT Major contributors

A return filed with the Internal Revenue Service by SBVT states that between April 23, when it was formed, and June 30 it had raised $158,750. Of this amount Bob Perry, described by the Houston Chronicle last year as the single largest Texas donor to the Republican Party, contributed $100,000. O’Neill and Harlan Crow, the owner of Crow Realty Investors, both contributed $25,000.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth#Funding

Moveon.org Major contributors


George Soros
Contributions to 527 Committees
2004 Election Cycle
Recipient Total Contributions

America Coming Together $5,000,000
Joint Victory Campaign 2004 $4,550,000
MoveOn.org $2,500,000
Campaign for America's Future $300,000
Democracy for America $250,000



http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527indivsdetail.asp?ID=11001147458&Cycle=2004


Peter Lewis
Contributions to 527 Committees
2004 Election Cycle
Recipient Total Contributions

Joint Victory Campaign 2004 $7,750,000
America Coming Together $2,995,000
MoveOn.org $2,500,000
Marijuana Policy Project $485,000
Young Democrats of America $250,000
PunkVoter Inc $50,000


http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527indivsdetail.asp?ID=11001513807&Cycle=2004

Quite a few nickels and dimes from just two contributors

 

[kbeverina]

peachgirl, you've got it wrong and are accusing TeeJay of something she didn't do.

Yes,

Originally posted by peachgirl
WilliJ posted this:

"Originally posted by WillyJ
It's long but when you get the chance you might read what he actually said and compare it to what these people and the Right-wing talking-heads claim he said. .

And yes,

And you responded with this:

But WillyJ's post was responding to TeeJay's post that said this:

Kerry made statements to the press back then in which he described atrocities that he actually took part in...destroying villages, killing civilians, etc.

Teejay never said anything about the testimony, that wasn't part of her post. WillyJ's response referred her to the testimony. She responded with the quote she was talking about.

Nothing misleading, no need to be "more honest".

You said:

You posted that to disprove WilliJ's claim but you knew full well that it wasn't from the transcripts of Kerry's testimony.

That was misleading...but then Republicans are good at that, aren't they?

Wrong. She was never trying to disprove WillyJ's claim. Teejay made a statement, WillyJ said she should look at sworn testimony rather than what other people were saying, Teejay posted the clip that showed she was talking about things he himself said.

 

[peachgirl]

kbeverina

peachgirl, you've got it wrong and are accusing TeeJay of something she didn't do.

Thanks for the input, but I would guess that Teejay is perfectly capable of explaining her own posts so I'll argue with her if she wants to make that argument.


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[Teejay32]

I'm not capable of much at this hour, so, thank you Kbev.