Food for Thought - Political Thread

Originally posted by Teejay32
Two down, one hundred eighty-seven to go. Good luck.

Actually your math is just a bit off. While they have that many signatures, only a small handful can actually claim to have served WITH Kerry, and those are precisely the ones who are being discredited.

And SCUM refers to the lying scum, not all republicans, as you well know. See how easy it is to start a fight....just a word left out here and there, and voila, we have called all republicans scum and deserve treatment in kind.
 
It's an old issue, what's new is that because it's an election year they are immediately dismissed as "scum." Or "Republicans." (Same thing? lol)

Don't put words in my mouth. If I wanted to call Republicans "scum" I would. I didn't, so don't start with the whine about Democrats calling names.

As for this particular individual, since they claim no Republican loyalty:rotfl: , I don't see how whatever I call him is any reflection on Republicans in general.

And, anyone who would lie as he has to destroy the reputation of a man who put his life on the line for this country is pure, unadulterated scum.

Were there 187 other vets who were there that signed affidavits swearing they saw the incidents involving Kerry?

Btw, you would do well to read those letters of the supposed 250...A vast majority have nothing to do with Kerry's Vietnam service, but rather their opposition to his activities at home once he returned.

Now, want to discuss this particular one who lied? This would be #2 btw.

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I apologize...I thought the reference was made toward people who happened to not like John Kerry and since everything here is Democrat and Republican, I assumed it was made toward Republicans. So, I apologize for taking the word out of context.

Of course, someone who would lie like that is "scum." If he had issued with Kerry's action AFTER the war, he didn't have to make stuff up. That's simply wrong and I hope there is some sort of punishment for that.
 
...the name-calling has to go

You directed your complaint to the right person, because Teejay32 is the only one who referred to Republicans as scum. I suppose it's understandable since he can't defend the lies that this man has told.

This is exactly the kind of trashy mudslinging Republicans are known for. I said nothing about Republicans being scum, but Teejay32 comes in and infers that I did, then you come back with it as though it was a fact. When in reality, the only one who said Republican and scum in the same sentence, was Teejay32.


Nice try, won't work.


I don't care if he single-handedly saved every soldier who returned from Vietnam.

Finally! An honest statement. You could care less what Kerry did or didn't do. Whether it's true, whether it's a lie....makes no difference to you at all.


Edited to add...I see you've posted regarding the scum comment, so while I don't delete what I say, I appreciate your comments straightening things out.


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Originally posted by peachgirl


Now, want to discuss this particular one who lied? This would be #2 btw.

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Yeah.... anyone? I'm on the edge of my seat waiting......:wave2:
 
Who's financing MoveOn.org's flaming criticism's of Bush? I don't believe there has been any complaints from the Kerry camp about their money coming from Democratic supporters.

How about the propaganda movie of Michael Moore's. Last I looked he was a Democratic supporter as well.

Why would Kerry wait until he was criticised to try to condemn these types of organizations speaking out?

Duh? All of the above supported him -- the Swift Boat Vets are the first one's to attack him on an issue that he (Kerry) put out as the major reason he would make a good president!!!

Kerry thinks we are suppose to believe him and him only.

If he can't stand the heat, he shouldn't have brought it up in the first place ... but since he has, why doesn't he address and answer the charges made against him. I don't know of anyone else who received so many purple heart medals in so short of time (4 months) and lived to tell about it.

What about him and his movie camera ... I know lots of Vietnam vets and have yet to see any home movies of them in combat!!!

Politics aside, it just doesn't add up!!
 
Originally posted by Teejay32
By tone-deafness I meant that I feel like a bearer of bad news in telling people that a lot of vets hold grudges against Kerry.

Why on earth did you think that no one knew about this? I'm very confused by your comments. That's why I didn't get the tone deaf comment. Honestly. It might be me (and many times it is!) , but I'm really having a hard time following you! I doubt if anybody on these boards didn't know about the vets who held grudges against Kerry. That would be inevitable. It was an emotional time and people are still emotional about it. I'm sure there are lots of people who feel betrayed -- and want revenge -- because Kerry went anti-war.
 
Originally posted by peachgirl
Finally! An honest statement. You could care less what Kerry did or didn't do. Whether it's true, whether it's a lie....makes no difference to you at all. > [/B]


It really doesn't make a difference. I'm basing it on his senate voting record - or lack thereof recently. It's nothing personal, but for someone who insists on raising MY taxes, I find it interesting that he doesn't voluntarily to pay the higher income tax (MA state income tax form). I shouldn't drive MY SUV, but he can have his (not really his, his family's...apparently, he can't buy his own car, he has to borrow theirs; not to mention his plane and his yacht). He still collects his senate pay, despite not showing up for hearings, meetings and votes. It's not fair. If I missed that percentage of work, not only would I not get paid, I'd get fired and this guy is looking for a promotion. It's unacceptable to me. The big story on the front page of the Boston Herald about some girl's heart he broke...that's the FRONT page?!?! Who cares?? So, he had a girlfriend and he acted like a jerk. Gee....let's not vote for him because of THAT. Whomever you're going to vote for or against, have a real reason.

I'm also not exactly a big George Bush fan, but unfortunately, this election seems to be the lesser of the two evils. For me, the evil is Kerry, for you it's Bush. I guess our votes will just cancel each other out!

:D
 
Originally posted by VAN
Who's financing MoveOn.org's flaming criticism's of Bush? I don't believe there has been any complaints from the Kerry camp about their money coming from Democratic supporters.


The problem with the swift boat vets money is that it comes mostly in one lump sum from one person...hardly the same as the nickle and diming done by move on

How about the propaganda movie of Michael Moore's. Last I looked he was a Democratic supporter as well.
Perhaps you should look again my friend, you assume too much.
Duh? All of the above supported him -- the Swift Boat Vets are the first one's to attack him on an issue that he (Kerry) put out as the major reason he would make a good president!!!
DUH...the swift vets started their attack last May, they just went public in a big way recently. Kerry was responding, not attacking.
Kerry thinks we are suppose to believe him and him only.
Assuming again?
If he can't stand the heat, he shouldn't have brought it up in the first place ... but since he has, why doesn't he address and answer the charges made against him. I don't know of anyone else who received so many purple heart medals in so short of time (4 months) and lived to tell about it.
That statement is just plain shameful.
What about him and his movie camera ... I know lots of Vietnam vets and have yet to see any home movies of them in combat!!!
already been debunked earlier...pay attention, and you will eliminate the need for repition.
Politics aside, it just doesn't add up!!
Why not try Bush's fuzzy math...the one that says we are doing well economically.
 
AllyandJack


Please link me to where Kerry has said he will raise your taxes?

Please show me where he has not shown up for meetings other than what you heard in a republican ad? You do know that Kerry/Edwards have asked the senate to release attendance records to debunk this? Or did you just take the ad at its word?
 
Originally posted by AllyandJack
I agree about it being old news. I grew up in MA and the only thing I knew about Kerry's war service was how he declared himself a war criminal when he got back.

Me too! :D

Originally posted by peachgirl
You directed your complaint to the right person, because Teejay32 is the only one who referred to Republicans as scum. I suppose it's understandable since he can't defend the lies that this man has told.

1. I'm a "she".

2. 189 veterans signed the letter against Kerry, which follows.

May 4, 2004

Senator Kerry,

We write from our common heritage as veterans of duty aboard Swift Boats in the Vietnam War. Indeed, you should note that a substantial number of those men who served directly with you during your four month tour in Vietnam have signed this letter.

It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.

We believe you continue this conduct today, albeit by changing from an anti-war to a "war hero" status. You now seek to clad yourself in the very medals that you disdainfully threw away in the early years of your political career. In the process, we believe you continue a deception as to your own conduct through such tactics as the disclosure of only carefully screened portions of your military records. Both then and now, we have concluded that you have deceived the public, and in the process have betrayed honorable men, to further your personal political goals.

Your conduct is such as to raise substantive concerns as to your honesty and your ability to serve, as you currently seek, as Commander-in-Chief of the military services.

It is vital that the American public have as much information as possible about candidates for President of the United States. In various ways, you have rightly called upon President Bush to be fully accountable and to provide full disclosure. In the same spirit, now that you are the presumptive nominee of your Party, we believe it is incumbent upon you to make your total military record open to the American people.

Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam. Permit the American public the opportunity to assess your military performance upon the record, and not upon campaign rhetoric.

Senator Kerry, we were there. We know the truth. We have been silent long enough. The stakes are too great, not only for America in general but, most importantly, for those who have followed us into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. We call upon you to provide a full, accurate accounting of your conduct in Vietnam.

Respectfully,

3. I read the piece in the Post about Mr. Thurlow, and can't find any solid evidence that he lied. Yet. There may be, but right now it's simply saying that Thurlow's accounts and the accounts of paperwork don't match.

4. You're saying Thurlow lied, and "one by one, they'll be proven for the scum that they are." So clear it up for me, approximately how many of these people do you personally believe to be lying scum, and based on what, exactly. I'll wait.

I'll be way surprised if the thread survives another 10 minutes, but still....
 
189 veterans signed the letter against Kerry, which follows.

AGAIN I say to you it has only been claimed that a small handfull of thse men actually served with Kerry. The ones who did are the ones who are being proven to be liars.

Well, perhaps not to you....but Thurlow sat there and claimed that there was absolutely no gunfire that day, and now that his records ( which the post had to sue to see ) are public, these records state he was undef fire at the precise time he claims there was no fire. Either he is lying now or he lied then...either way he is a liar.
 
I read the piece in the Post about Mr. Thurlow, and can't find any solid evidence that he lied. Yet. There may be, but right now it's simply saying that Thurlow's accounts and the accounts of paperwork don't match.

Actually, it says a bit more. It says that the records for Kerry's medal agree with the records for Thurlow. So, we have Thurlow saying one thing and his records, Kerry's records and Kerry saying another.

That's 3 to 1.


I'm a "she".

Yeah, that's what's important about the cheap shot you took.:rolleyes:




So clear it up for me, approximately how many of these people do you personally believe to be lying scum, and based on what, exactly. I'll wait.

Well, you said there were 187 who were like Thurlow. First, that's not true. Secondly every single one of them who signed an affidavit that is proven to have lied, is scum. Writing a letter is not the same as an affidavit and they don't have 187 affidavits. Of the 250, a vast majority have nothing to do with knowledge of Kerry's Vietnam service. You misrepresented the facts.

Wait's over.
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Originally posted by faithinkarma
AllyandJack


Please link me to where Kerry has said he will raise your taxes?

Please show me where he has not shown up for meetings other than what you heard in a republican ad? You do know that Kerry/Edwards have asked the senate to release attendance records to debunk this? Or did you just take the ad at its word?


Look back at Kerry's voting record....he's voted to raise taxes (including .50 on gas) many, many times. He SAYS he's only going raise taxes for people over $200,000 (actually, not raise, repeal the cut, which is more or less the same), but he is so inconsistent that I don't trust him to lower that amount. I didn't hear it on an ad, I got to read it in the local papers when MA missed out on a chance for school funding by one vote - if Kerry was there to vote, maybe some of these towns wouldn't have to raise property taxes on working people.

If they are having those records released, I'll gladly look at them and take back what I said about him getting paid for not working. But, as of last month, the record shows that there were 163 votes and Kerry missed 145. Obviously, I got that from a site that leans more Republican because it's not going to be posted on Kerry's site. But, those are statistics. They're not people I've never heard of talking about stuff that happened 30 years ago. If the stats are wrong, they can be proven wrong and I'll take it back.
 
and in case you missed yesterday's lie:

Retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, chairman and co-founder of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, has changed his story about whether or not he actually knew Senator John Kerry in Vietnam.

May 6: "Hoffman acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally." [Milwaukee Journal Sentinel]http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/may04/227671.asp?format=print

August 4: "'I knew him well enough to know him," Hoffman said. 'He's the most vain individual I've ever met - aloof and arrogant.'" [Scripps Howard News Service]http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=KERRY-MEDALS-08-04-04

August 5: Hoffman said, "We were on the same operations, we were operating within 25-50 yards of him all the time, and for them to suggest we don't know John Kerry is pure old bull." [The New York Times]http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70612FB3E580C768CDDA10894DC404482

August 5: In response to Senator John McCain's (R-AZ) denunciation of the ad, Hoffman "said they respected McCain's 'right to express his opinion and we hope he extends to us the same respect and courtesy, particularly since we served with John Kerry, we knew him well and Sen. McCain did not.'" [Associated Press]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/08/05/politics1020EDT0544.DTL&type=printable

August 5: Hoffman said, "I knew him well, because I operated very closely with him and, uh, many of the operations, uh, most of the operations were-were conducted with multiple boats" - a dramatic shift from admitting no personal knowledge of Kerry three months earlier; it went unchallenged by his host. [ABC Radio's Sean Hannity Show]http://mediamatters.org/items/%20/search.html?string=sean+hannity
 
Originally posted by peachgirl







Well, you said there were 187 who were like Thurlow. First, that's not true. Secondly every single one of them who signed an affidavit that is proven to have lied, is scum. Writing a letter is not the same as an affidavit and they don't have 187 affidavits. Of the 250, a vast majority have nothing to do with knowledge of Kerry's Vietnam service. You misrepresented the facts.

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Teejay's perfectly aware of this - she's just having "fun with words and numbers" and I gotta say I admire you Peachgirl. When the discussion goes like this, with the word twisting, I just get a headache and find it hard to keep going!
 
Originally posted by peachgirl
Actually, it says a bit more. It says that the records for Kerry's medal agree with the records for Thurlow. So, we have Thurlow saying one thing and his records, Kerry's records and Kerry saying another. That's 3 to 1.

Not necessarily:

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

If Kerry was the source of the report for the awards, then it's one person's word against another.

I haven't read any Hoffman stories yet, and I'm not sure if we're supposed to be saying 189 or 250, or how many have sworn affadavits....I'll go find out. Don't go away.
 
If Kerry was the source of the report for the awards,


Kerry was not a source for the awards he received, and they don't use just one persons account of what happened to issue silver/bronze stars.

So, while you may want to dismiss any portions that Kerry may or may not have contributed, there will still be others that remain.



I just get a headache and find it hard to keep going!

You're doing just fine. It does get a little fast and furious at times. The right really doesn't like it when they get cornered on an issue, but it's all good....:D
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okay, this is from the SBVT's own letter:

As described in the attached affidavits, Al French (Exhibit 2), Bob Elder (Exhibit 3), Jack Chenoweth (Exhibit 7), Larry Thurlow (Exhibit 10), and Bob Hildreth (Exhibit 14) were all officers in charge of Swift boats in Vietnam in Coastal Division 11 with John Kerry. Coastal Division 11 was a small naval unit with about one hundred sailors and fifteen or sixteen boats which operated in groups of two to six boats. Each of these boat officers operated directly with John Kerry on numerous occasions. Van Odell (Exhibit 6) is a retired Navy enlisted man who also served in Coastal Division 11 on the Chenoweth boat, a few yards from John Kerry during Kerry's March 13, 1969 Bronze Star action.

Captain George Elliott, USN (retired), (Exhibit 4) was John Kerry's direct commander in Coastal Division 11, while Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired), (Exhibit 9) was Kerry's administrative commander. Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann, USN (retired), (Exhibit 8) commanded all Swift boats (including Kerry's) in Vietnam.

Dr. Louis Letson (Exhibit 5) was the doctor in Cam Rahn Bay who treated Kerry's first Purple Heart "wound," while Commander Grant Hibbard (Exhibit 11) was John Kerry's commander at Coastal Division 14 where Kerry claimed to have suffered the wound. Finally, Joe Ponder (Exhibit 13) and Shelton White (Exhibit 12) are veterans of Coastal Division 11 who were badly wounded near the Song Bo De River where Kerry served most of his short tour.

I count 13 affidavits accompanying the original letter. Forget everyone else. Rear Admiral Hoffman is already discredited for not knowing Kerry personally, or something, and now Thurlow is discredited for his account of the incident that resulted in awards for several of them.

Thurlow is not proven a liar yet (we'll hear more about the source for the citations I'm sure); Hoffmann, I don't think, needs to be in a position of knowing Kerry personally to put his two cents in. People will see what they want to see in all this. I think it is interesting that Kerry, personally, has discredited and maligned the whole group, which so far looks like a good chunk of the people he did serve with. ::shrugs::

This is messy.
 












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