Flu shots - why not?

[DebbieB]

I don't buy it..sorry I don't. I got the flu in 2005 and was told the flu shot was useless that year and the strain going around was NOT in the shot and they were being bombarded with cases of the flu..many of the people with having received the vaccine.

The problem is you know if it didn't work (you got the flu) but you really don't know if it did work (you were exposed and didn't get sick because of the shot).

It's really up to every individual, no one is forcing anyone to get it. My doctor recommended it so I got it. I've never had any reactions so I don't see the harm, plus I get it free at work. Even if it's not 100%, I'll take the chance that it may help me.

 

[Coconut36]

The problem is you know if it didn't work (you got the flu) but you really don't know if it did work (you were exposed and didn't get sick because of the shot).

It's really up to every individual, no one is forcing anyone to get it. My doctor recommended it so I got it. I've never had any reactions so I don't see the harm, plus I get it free at work. Even if it's not 100%, I'll take the chance that it may help me.

I am basing my comments on those of my Dr, the Dr who that year indicated very clearly to me they were seeing a huge number of cases of flu and the majority of those ill had RECEIVED the flu shot. I am not basing it on me not getting the shot and getting sick but on the experience of my physician who was treating the people sick with the flu and was tracking vaccine status to report to the CDC. She was very clear when she indicated that the strains she was seeing were NOT matching the shot that year (and maybe it was 2004..I remember my oldest son was young but that could have been 2004 or 2005) and that most of her flu cases were vaccinated people.

 

[Coconut36]

I agree with both of these comments. Oddly enough, my friend whose conversation started this thread has a 4 month old and a fragile-health 2 year old. She won't explain why she thinks the vaccine is 'full of crap', she just believes that it is.

If you don't know why the 2 year old has fragile health that could be a factor in why she feels the vaccines are damaging. Children with mitochondiral disease for example often have fragile health but the flu shot is also often not safe for them either. If her 2 year old has a health issue you are not aware of it could easily influence her feelings regarding the safety of the shot.

 

[charming23]

No shot for me... last time I had one I broke out in a rash from my knees to my shoulders... they don't know WHAT in the shot did it... but the Doctor said that was my last flu shot- ever.

That happened to me the on time I got it a few years ago. I also managed to get the flu that year as well.

 

[NikitaZee]

If you don't know why the 2 year old has fragile health that could be a factor in why she feels the vaccines are damaging. Children with mitochondiral disease for example often have fragile health but the flu shot is also often not safe for them either. If her 2 year old has a health issue you are not aware of it could easily influence her feelings regarding the safety of the shot.

He doesn't eat - uses a g-tube for feeding, and catches colds, respiratory infections etc quite easily.

 

[Coconut36]

He doesn't eat - uses a g-tube for feeding, and catches colds, respiratory infections etc quite easily.

Wow..sounds like my friends son right down to the g-tube. He has mitochondrial disease and the flu shot is contradicted for him based on his mito problems (as I understand it from my friend). She is NOT vaccine friendly and is against them after doing research regarding them for her children (in relation to their disease).

 

[Octoberbride03]

For me, it's because it's such a crapshoot on which strain goes in the shot. It isn't always the one that ends up being prevalent.

My children have both had influenza (dr tested) and my DD ended up in the hopsital for dehydration from the flu when she was 2 years old.

We still choose not to get them the flu shots (which drives my RN Mom and RN Public Health Nurse sister crazy ).

I know. I work at Target and for the 2nd year in a row they are offering free flu shots to team members and their families. Nice, but really...how do you you know which strain of flu is going to be going around this year Cause not all flu shots cover all strains. I read in the paper that they are working on it, but until then I'm a relatively healthy person who hasn't had the flu since high school. I think I'll skip it

 

[NikitaZee]

Wow..sounds like my friends son right down to the g-tube. He has mitochondrial disease and the flu shot is contradicted for him based on his mito problems (as I understand it from my friend). She is NOT vaccine friendly and is against them after doing research regarding them for her children (in relation to their disease).

I don't know about mito problems - but she has never mentioned that as a cause for his non-eating. She's not anti-vaccine, just anti-flu shot. For herself as well.

 

[Coconut36]

I don't know about mito problems - but she has never mentioned that as a cause for his non-eating. She's not anti-vaccine, just anti-flu shot. For herself as well.

I don't mean to imply that is what her son has..simply that my friend has a mito child and he also has a g tube (part of his mito and other issues impact his ability to digest food as well as impacts the muscles involved in swallowing..he aspirates food/liquid into his lungs) and can catch illnesses easily and because of the mito the flu shot is not safe for him.

My thought however is that if he has some existing health issues there may be a strong reason for her to feel the flu shot is unsafe for him based on whatever conditions he is dealing with and that one might be a bigger concern than other vaccines.

In my friends case based on her children she has become very anti vaccine because of the damage she has learned it could cause in her case.

 

[NikitaZee]

I don't mean to imply that is what her son has..simply that my friend has a mito child and he also has a g tube (part of his mito and other issues impact his ability to digest food as well as impacts the muscles involved in swallowing..he aspirates food/liquid into his lungs) and can catch illnesses easily and because of the mito the flu shot is not safe for him.

My thought however is that if he has some existing health issues there may be a strong reason for her to feel the flu shot is unsafe for him based on whatever conditions he is dealing with and that one might be a bigger concern than other vaccines.

In my friends case based on her children she has become very anti vaccine because of the damage she has learned it could cause in her case.

Very possible. I try not to judge (not always successfully), but to understand.

 

[DebbieB]

I am basing my comments on those of my Dr, the Dr who that year indicated very clearly to me they were seeing a huge number of cases of flu and the majority of those ill had RECEIVED the flu shot. I am not basing it on me not getting the shot and getting sick but on the experience of my physician who was treating the people sick with the flu and was tracking vaccine status to report to the CDC. She was very clear when she indicated that the strains she was seeing were NOT matching the shot that year (and maybe it was 2004..I remember my oldest son was young but that could have been 2004 or 2005) and that most of her flu cases were vaccinated people.

So you are saying that getting shot makes you more likely to get the flu? Or that the shot isn't effective? Earlier you quoted that it's about 50% effective on average. I'll take the chance that I'll get 50% protection vs 0% without the shot.

 

[Geoff_M]

Nice, but really...how do you you know which strain of flu is going to be going around this year

The answer lies East. Seasonal flu viruses normally follow a predictable route around the globe. By studying what strains pop up in Asia earlier in the year, health authorities here had a pretty good idea of which ones are headed our way.

 

[Coconut36]

So you are saying that getting shot makes you more likely to get the flu? Or that the shot isn't effective? Earlier you quoted that it's about 50% effective on average. I'll take the chance that I'll get 50% protection vs 0% without the shot.

I never said you are more likely to get the flu if you get the shot. I did however state (and CDC confirms this) that the getting the flu shot does NOT guarantee you will not contract the flu. It is entirely possible for someone who received the flu vaccine to contract a different flu strain and pass that on.

I believe it has a low effectiveness and it is useless in years where the strains do not match (and the CDC confirms that). There is also increasing data showing that it is ineffective for 65+ year old people..the ones told they "must" get the shot.

A 50% effective rate is not high enough to make me feel it is a necessary vaccine for myself or my children.

 

[hambirg]

I never said you are more likely to get the flu if you get the shot. I did however state (and CDC confirms this) that the getting the flu shot does NOT guarantee you will not contract the flu. It is entirely possible for someone who received the flu vaccine to contract a different flu strain and pass that on.

I believe it has a low effectiveness and it is useless in years where the strains do not match (and the CDC confirms that). There is also increasing data showing that it is ineffective for 65+ year old people..the ones told they "must" get the shot.

A 50% effective rate is not high enough to make me feel it is a necessary vaccine for myself or my children.

It's not even a 50% effectiveness rate. The meta-analysis shows a 25% reduction if you get the vaccine. Btw. . .placebo effect is higher than that. . .you might be better off taking a tic tac.

 

[Geoff_M]

I think what she is saying is that she isn't going to base her medical decisions on the immune systems of 6-month olds that aren't her's or the immune systems of her kid's classmates.

None of those things even cross my mind when I decide on what I put into my body and they have absolutely zero effect on what my decision will be.

No, I understand your and the other poster's comments and your primary interests perfectly clearly. What I was trying to make clear was the degree which such decisions can impact others as well as dispel the notion that it's not just a simple matter of the "other people" needing to make sure they're vaccinated.

 

[cornflake]

What placebo effect? A flu vaccine placebo effect? What?

Yes, I do know what efficacy means. The .... Wiki stuff you quoted notes 'flu-like illness.' was not so much reduced. Why would it be?

I find it disturbing that people put such blind faith in a shot that covers a teeny tiny fraction of all the flu strains we can be exposed to.

Speaking of knowing what something means... I think you might want to look up 'blind faith,' as you've used it in two threads accusing people who are discussion science and facts of having 'blind faith' and then explaining that you just think the opposite. Huh?

 

[shinysparklybubbles]

We get it. My husband works with the dirty public and we have an asthmatic toddler, so flu shots all around for us. DS is allergic to eggs (thankfully it's not awful like his peanut/treenut) so he gets his shot at the allergist and we have to sit there for an hour afterwards to make sure he is fine.

I stood in line for 3 hours the year of swine flu to get my son a vaccine. It was insane but a few people died in this area so I was scared. I did only get him 1/2 of the shot because of supply issues.

 

[Geoff_M]

I never said you are more likely to get the flu if you get the shot. I did however state (and CDC confirms this) that the getting the flu shot does NOT guarantee you will not contract the flu. It is entirely possible for someone who received the flu vaccine to contract a different flu strain and pass that on.

I believe it has a low effectiveness and it is useless in years where the strains do not match (and the CDC confirms that). There is also increasing data showing that it is ineffective for 65+ year old people..the ones told they "must" get the shot.

A 50% effective rate is not high enough to make me feel it is a necessary vaccine for myself or my children.

The issue of seasonal flu vaccines is a little more complicated than "works" or "doesn't work". Mark Crislip a couple of years ago wrote up a very good summary of what the medical literature does, and doesn't say about seasonal flu vaccines. You can read it here. He looks at the good, and not so good, findings and does a pretty good job of explaining why you can't easily make binary decisions about such vaccines. His summary is worth restating:

In my mind that is the true benefit of the influenza vaccines: decreasing the morbidity and mortality of populations. The benefit for populations is derived through vaccinating individuals. That requires a bit of altruism on the part of those receiving the vaccine, as they may be getting vaccinated more for the benefit of others than for themselves. However, at least in the US, a premium is currently placed on being a self centered narcissist; indirectly helping others, even for MD’s and RN’s, is apparently not on the to do list.

Do flu vaccines work? It depends on what the meaning of is is. If you are simplistic and like binary answers, yes or no, then you can pick yes or pick no, and find studies to support your contention that the vaccine doesn’t work.

If you realize that medicine is subtle and nuanced, and often the answers are filled with qualifiers and uncertainty, that the practice of medicine is messy, I think the answer is that the flu vaccine is of benefit. And that the more people who get the vaccine, the greater the benefit for everyone. You do not know how much it pains me to quote Donald Rumsfeld , but he was partly right when he said “You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.”

It is true in medicine as well. My army is the vaccine and the data used to support it. You can conclude that neither the vaccine nor the data is perfect, and decide the vaccine is not useful.

Or you can look at the preponderance of data, with all the flaws, nuance, subtleties and qualifiers, and conclude the flu vaccine is of benefit. The vaccine decreases the probability of morbidity and mortality. It is a good thing.

 

[hambirg]

What placebo effect? A flu vaccine placebo effect? What?

Yes, I do know what efficacy means. The .... Wiki stuff you quoted notes 'flu-like illness.' was not so much reduced. Why would it be?

That was only referring to children. Here is the synopsis of the actual study if you like:

Main Results

Fifty-one studies involving 263,987 children were included. Seventeen papers were translated from Russian. Fourteen RCTs and 11 cohort studies were included in the analysis of vaccine efficacy and effectiveness. From RCTs, live vaccines showed an efficacy of 79% (95% confidence interval (CI) 48% to 92%) and an effectiveness of 33% (95% CI 28% to 38%) in children older than two years compared with placebo or no intervention. Inactivated vaccines had a lower efficacy of 59% (95% CI 41% to 71%) than live vaccines but similar effectiveness: 36% (95% CI 24% to 46%). In children under two, the efficacy of inactivated vaccine was similar to placebo. Thirty-four reports containing safety outcomes were included, 22 including live vaccines, 8 inactivated vaccines and 4 both types. The most commonly presented short-term outcomes were temperature and local reactions. The variability in design of studies and presentation of data was such that meta-analysis of safety outcome data was not feasible.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...+3+Sep+from+10-12+BST+for+monthly+maintenance

 

[Deb in IA]

Some definitions:

Effectiveness
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Effectiveness means the capability of producing an effect, and is most frequently used in connection with the degree to which something is capable of producing a specific, desired effect.

In mathematics, effective is sometimes used as a synonym of algorithmically computable.

In physics, an effective theory is, similar to a phenomenological theory, a framework intended to explain certain (observed) effects without the claim that the theory correctly models the underlying (unobserved) processes. An example is an effective field theory that "pretends" that certain effects are caused by a field even if it is known that this is not actually the case. In a way, any theory of Physics is fundamentally an effective theory, since there is no meaningful distinction of observables and reality within the scope of Physics (see also FAPP, cogito ergo sum, Phenomenalism, Pragmatism).

In heat transfer, effectiveness is a measure of the performance of a heat exchanger when using the NTU method.

In medicine, effectiveness relates to how well a treatment works in practice, as opposed to efficacy, which measures how well it works in clinical trials or laboratory studies.

In management, effectiveness relates to getting the right things done. Peter Drucker reminds us that effectiveness can and must be learned.”[1].

In human–computer interaction, effectiveness is defined as “the accuracy and completeness of users’ tasks while using a system”[2].

Efficacy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Efficacy is the capacity to produce an effect. It has different specific meanings in different fields.

1 ef·fi·ca·cy /ˈɛfɪkəsi/ noun [noncount] formal : the power to produce a desired result or effect ▪ The efficacy [=effectiveness] of this treatment has not yet been proved. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/efficacy

2 efficacy /ef·fi·ca·cy/ (ef´ĭ-kah-se) 1. the ability of an intervention to produce the desired beneficial effect in expert hands and under ideal circumstances. 2. the ability of a drug to produce the desired therapeutic effect. [1]