Flight Prices - OMGeesh

I think they've changed the schedule...not sure of the effective dates...which I just noticed.

GRRR.

So..now our flight out is 10:55 AM.
Flight back is 2:35 PM.

Not quite as nice....but it looks like Jet Blue is either redoing their schedule OR cutting down on their flights between BDL and MCO (which I find hard to believe).

Did they notify you? I had an issue with them last year for our flight home day after Thanksgiving . . .I was supposed to leave MCO at 8:25 and they changed it to 6:20 and didn't even notify me. I only realized it when checking it 2 weeks prior to our trip . . .it made me kind of ticked off especially since they didn't notify me (not that I would of changed airlines) but it took away 2 hours of my short vacation . . .:crazy2:
 
Of course, it is all relative.

We are going about that time frame, and our tickets are a nice reasonable $457 out of Portland, OR on Delta. No driving from here, though, DD would not survive the trip :lmao:. While United was a bit lower ($369?), the service is much better on DL.

See, I'm so cheap that I wouldn't want to pay that . . .OMG!:scared:
 
Did they notify you? I had an issue with them last year for our flight home day after Thanksgiving . . .I was supposed to leave MCO at 8:25 and they changed it to 6:20 and didn't even notify me. I only realized it when checking it 2 weeks prior to our trip . . .it made me kind of ticked off especially since they didn't notify me (not that I would of changed airlines) but it took away 2 hours of my short vacation . . .:crazy2:

Yup, made the change on the 20th.

The email update (no phone call or text) went out that day...to my wife's email addy. She didn't notice it til I mentioned it yesterday (last week was a little nuts).

She's going to call and see if we have other options (like, taking a flight the next day and extending our stay one day). The flight out is annoying, but doable.

The flight back interferes with some plans that we'd made, already. That would kill any time in the parks that day, and a family tradition that we really don't want to end.
 
$200 R/T PP. We've been going down yearly since 2006 and I tell myself, "Self, you will NOT pay more than $200 each for flights!!" So far, I have not had to go over that and a couple of times, paid significantly less. My best deal was $69 flights for DD and I to MCO on Delta that were upgraded to First Class at the gate in 2009!

I would also suggest the Southwest Rapid Rewards Visa to anyone so inclined. I signed up last year and got 2 free RT flights. Signed DH this year and he received 50,000 points. We were able to get 4 RT flights to MCO from that with about 3600 points left over. I get RR points from my electricity supplier and participate in a site called "E-Rewards" which pays you to complete on-line surveys & I take mine in RR points. Between all that, I get about 1500 points a month and a RT flight runs about 12,000. All told we used 2 free flights last year, 5 used/booked this year with enough left for another trip & a half.
 

See, I'm so cheap that I wouldn't want to pay that . . .OMG!:scared:

Well, I think your outlook would be a bit different from here ;) It is either pay or make a 4-5 day car trip (one way). However, I grew up in Tallahassee, where flights out would be about $500-$1000+ depending on destination, and that was in the 1980s.
 
See, I'm so cheap that I wouldn't want to pay that . . .OMG!:scared:
I don't think you're being realistic regarding the cost to fly a plane and passengers across the country (north/south or east/west, it doesn't matter), or to operate an airline.

eta: in 2003 (the most current information I could find quickly) it cost between 7.5 and 12 cents per passenger per mile http://askville.amazon.com/cost-air...Los-Angeles/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2593308
That's nine to fifteen cents today - just for the flight. Doesn't account for the spike in fuel costs or other supplies, salary increases, fees, rent hikes, higher insurance premiums...
 
Wish Upon A Star said:
See, I'm so cheap that I wouldn't want to pay that . . .OMG!:scared:

Did you not see where they are coming from? Portland, Oregon. Can you imagine car rental, gas, hotels, meals on the road for a round trip flight?

I would trade 5 days on the road round trip, with that airfare any day.
 
$200 R/T PP. We've been going down yearly since 2006 and I tell myself, "Self, you will NOT pay more than $200 each for flights!!" So far, I have not had to go over that and a couple of times, paid significantly less. My best deal was $69 flights for DD and I to MCO on Delta that were upgraded to First Class at the gate in 2009!

I would also suggest the Southwest Rapid Rewards Visa to anyone so inclined. I signed up last year and got 2 free RT flights. Signed DH this year and he received 50,000 points. We were able to get 4 RT flights to MCO from that with about 3600 points left over. I get RR points from my electricity supplier and participate in a site called "E-Rewards" which pays you to complete on-line surveys & I take mine in RR points. Between all that, I get about 1500 points a month and a RT flight runs about 12,000. All told we used 2 free flights last year, 5 used/booked this year with enough left for another trip & a half.

I have a RT flight credit to use by May . . .but it doesn't want me to fly on the days I want . . .LOL I haven't applied for the RR Visa because I wasn't sure if it worked the same way my RR points worked . . .I was so excited to have a free flight, but not so much after it basically isn't accomodating to the days I want . . .but I'm willing to work with it until I can find a happy compromise . . .;)

I used to say I wouldn't pay more that 200/rt too . . .but lately . . .not so much . . .the most I'm willing to part with is around 275, but of course, that is just normal travel times . . .I got really lucky with our New Year's trip . . .those flights are now 485/pp . . :faint:
 
I don't think you're being realistic regarding the cost to fly a plane and passengers across the country (north/south or east/west, it doesn't matter), or to operate an airline.

eta: in 2003 (the most current information I could find quickly) it cost between 7.5 and 12 cents per passenger per mile http://askville.amazon.com/cost-air...Los-Angeles/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2593308
That's nine to fifteen cents today - just for the flight. Doesn't account for the spike in fuel costs or other supplies, salary increases, fees, rent hikes, higher insurance premiums...

Sure, I am . . .I'm completely realistic, I know what things cost; gas, groceries, taxes, oil, etc . . .it is unrealistic that airlines price gauge, but they aren't the only ones, I live in a very high taxed State . . .everything has gone up in price, but, if you watch the airline pricing, you will see them go up and down, then go way up, then come down . . .its a bunch of bull . . .just like when a hurricane is predicted, what happens at the gas station before the hurricane even happens? YUP, prices go up . . .I'd be happier if the airlines would come out with a set price and leave it like that . . .that way you know ok, I'm paying 275, 375, 475 pp and that's it . . .instead of . . oh hey, it's Tuesday oh look prices are down 30 one way . . . oh hey it's Friday, prices are up 50 one way . . .
So, IMHO, I'm more than realistic, just playing the air game like everyone else trying to get the best price . . .and glad I only have to purchase 2 tickets . . .:thumbsup2
 
I don't think you're being realistic regarding the cost to fly a plane and passengers across the country (north/south or east/west, it doesn't matter), or to operate an airline.

eta: in 2003 (the most current information I could find quickly) it cost between 7.5 and 12 cents per passenger per mile http://askville.amazon.com/cost-air...Los-Angeles/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2593308
That's nine to fifteen cents today - just for the flight. Doesn't account for the spike in fuel costs or other supplies, salary increases, fees, rent hikes, higher insurance premiums...

See...but again, that's the point.

No consumer HAS to fly. They can have any expectation of value that they want (or price point). They don't have to consider what it costs the airline to operate...it's ultimately irrelevant. They have to consider what they can afford, and what they find reasonable.

If the consumer can't find fare at the price they want, they make other choices.

If the airline can't operate at a margin where they can meet most customers expectation of cost...then they can't/shouldn't operate. It's that simple.

And yes, I know full well what that would mean.
 
$200 R/T PP. We've been going down yearly since 2006 and I tell myself, "Self, you will NOT pay more than $200 each for flights!!" So far, I have not had to go over that and a couple of times, paid significantly less. My best deal was $69 flights for DD and I to MCO on Delta that were upgraded to First Class at the gate in 2009!

We've been traveling down for president's week for 13 years now. The best I did was right after 9/11 and everyone was afraid to fly. I got NS RT PP tickets into MCO from LGA for $147 for President's week 2002!!! Now I'm happy if I come in around $250 but I have to shop 9 months in advance.
 
I feel your pain.

We are flying AirTran from Indy to MCO in October and I just bought our airfare this week. We weren't planning on going to Disney this year so this 5-night trip is really last minute for us. I would normally have purchased airfare way back in March when the schedule was first released.

This year we paid $408/person. :scared1:
The flight down is non-stop but the flight home stops in Atlanta.

Last year we paid $295/person.
Both flights were non-stop.

We don't have time to drive; our DD is a sophomore in HS and we are going over her Fall Break. We'll be in Disney Wed night - Mon afternoon.
 
Did you not see where they are coming from? Portland, Oregon. Can you imagine car rental, gas, hotels, meals on the road for a round trip flight?

I would trade 5 days on the road round trip, with that airfare any day.
Kind reminds you of the Griswold family, huh :rotfl:

Sure, I am . . .I'm completely realistic, I know what things cost; gas, groceries, taxes, oil, etc . . .it is unrealistic that airlines price gauge, but they aren't the only ones, I live in a very high taxed State . . .everything has gone up in price, but, if you watch the airline pricing, you will see them go up and down, then go way up, then come down . . .its a bunch of bull . . .just like when a hurricane is predicted, what happens at the gas station before the hurricane even happens? YUP, prices go up . . .I'd be happier if the airlines would come out with a set price and leave it like that . . .that way you know ok, I'm paying 275, 375, 475 pp and that's it . . .instead of . . oh hey, it's Tuesday oh look prices are down 30 one way . . . oh hey it's Friday, prices are up 50 one way . . .
So, IMHO, I'm more than realistic, just playing the air game like everyone else trying to get the best price . . .and glad I only have to purchase 2 tickets . . .:thumbsup2
With respect, I'm not sure the dynamics of the airline industry can be fully understood without a deep dive of all the variables involved, and insinuating the airline industry is purposely gouging their customers is fairly disingenuous.

Prices fluctuate to accommodate vacation travelers (such as yourself) with the lowest fare possible, while still being able to afford the flight. Usually, this means business travelers take the largest price hit. To facilitate this, airlines determine how many seats they can sell below margin, at margin, and above margin to still make the trip break even in costs. In the end, it is very very thin. See below a link to a recent report on airline profitability.

No consumer HAS to fly. They can have any expectation of value that they want (or price point). They don't have to consider what it costs the airline to operate...it's ultimately irrelevant. They have to consider what they can afford, and what they find reasonable.

If the consumer can't find fare at the price they want, they make other choices.

This is true, to a point. We are exiting a pretty severe price war between Southwest airlines and the legacy carriers. During the war, prices were excessively low, even below sustainability in many cases. Unfortunately during this time, the American public's perception of airfares were lowered to levels far lower than the airlines can afford. Now that this is normalizing again, airfares are beginning to get to the point they should be. Have you noticed Southwest's prices equating to the legacy carriers?

Also keep in mind, current airfares are equivalent (or less than) those 20-30 years ago, unlike most other service and commodities. In addition, salaries are higher, which in general permit a much larger portion of the American public to experience air travel.

If the airline can't operate at a margin where they can meet most customers expectation of cost...then they can't/shouldn't operate. It's that simple.

And yes, I know full well what that would mean.
I disagree, and feel this is also disingenuous. First, the airline (like all businesses) only needs to meet the expectation of the owners.

In addition, unlike the infrequent travelers who fill the bulk of the aircraft economy seats, the airlines are sustained by business travel, who are willing to pay the higher rates to get their staff to the meeting/client. Why should American business suffer because Joe America can't afford (or doesn't want to afford) the additional $200 to take his family to Disney World at the time Joe wants to go? This dynamic is also why airlines cater to their frequent fliers and why threats of "never flying that airline again" by a standard passenger usually holds no weight to the bottom line.

Here is a report that was released two days ago (Thurs, Aug 29) regarding the profitability of US airlines:

http://atwonline.com/airline-financ...ID=darren@frequentlyflying.com&YM_MID=1336380

The 10 largest US airlines incurred a $1.07 billion net loss in the first half operating on a net negative profit margin of 1.5%, deteriorating from a 0.4% negative margin in the 2011 first half, according to Airlines for America (A4A).

...Excluding American Airlines, which is operating under Chapter 11 protection (ATW Daily News, Aug. 28), US airlines earned $835 million in net income in the first half, A4A said.
As katie said, margins are very thin,
US airlines earned just $0.77 per enplanement in 2011...

“When we say razor-thin margins, I think it’s fair to characterize $0.77 as razor thin,” Heimlich said. “Taxes are in the ballpark of $25 per passenger.”
Remember, previously bundled fees (baggage, food, etc) are not taxed as airfare now that they have been broken out, which helps the airlines a lot, while keeping the actual charges to passengers relatively the same.

$.077 times 400 passengers = $308 profit per flight. If oil, labor, or other variable increase slightly, many airlines could end up like Direct Air, Eastern, Pan Am, or TWA. This is especially true of Southwest, as they have very labor-friendly agreements, which may not be sustainable in the long-term.
 
I feel your pain.

We are flying AirTran from Indy to MCO in October and I just bought our airfare this week. We weren't planning on going to Disney this year so this 5-night trip is really last minute for us. I would normally have purchased airfare way back in March when the schedule was first released.

This year we paid $408/person. :scared1:
The flight down is non-stop but the flight home stops in Atlanta.

Last year we paid $295/person.
Both flights were non-stop.

We don't have time to drive; our DD is a sophomore in HS and we are going over her Fall Break. We'll be in Disney Wed night - Mon afternoon.

Wow, the ITA Matrix (http://matrix.itasoftware.com/) is showing airfare in the $200s, with a high of $286 and low of $220 per person during the month of October for a 5 night stay (IND - MCO). Mostly on United, AirTran, and US Air with a connection.
 
This is true, to a point. We are exiting a pretty severe price war between Southwest airlines and the legacy carriers. During the war, prices were excessively low, even below sustainability in many cases. Unfortunately during this time, the American public's perception of airfares were lowered to levels far lower than the airlines can afford. Now that this is normalizing again, airfares are beginning to get to the point they should be. Have you noticed Southwest's prices equating to the legacy carriers?


Also keep in mind, current airfares are equivalent or less than those 20-30 years ago, unlike most other service and commodities. In addition, salaries are higher, which in general permit a much larger portion of the American public to experience air travel.

More than "to a point". It's the market at work. Airlines can WANT to raise prices til the cows come home. But the market has to bear them. It doesn't matter whether that market has "realistic" expectations.

Notice, I'm not accusing them of gouging.

If the carriers can't cater to the market,they should shutter.

Or find a way to operate (reduced schedules, etc) strictly off those willing to pay their prices.

I disagree, and feel this is also disingenuous. First, the airline (like all businesses) only needs to meet the expectation of the owners.

I don't disagree.

But the only way to do that is to stay in business.

And the only way they can do THAT is to convince people to use their service/equipment.

They can do that via price or offering benefits (expanded schedule, no checked bag fees, etc). They can build brand loyalty or expand their business clientele (who, largely, aren't as concerned with price.

But they have to get people on their planes.

If they can't find a way to do that, because their prices are too high (or it costs them too much to operate at a price point acceptable to "most" consumers)..they should shutter.


In addition, unlike the infrequent travelers who fill the bulk of the aircraft economy seats, the airlines are sustained by business travel, who are willing to pay the higher rates to get their staff to the meeting/client. Why should American business suffer because Joe America can't afford (or doesn't want to afford) the additional $200 to take his family to Disney World at the time Joe wants to go? This dynamic is also why airlines cater to their frequent fliers and why threats of "never flying that airline again" by a standard passenger usually holds no weight to the bottom line.

You're essentially implying people should fly no matter what because it's their civic duty.

I disagree.

The specific airlines can operate or not. They can operate at the level they are now, or not. They can reduce schedules or not. There are other options out there. And for the infrequent flyer...they'll work within those options/value to find something that works for them...or not.

Besides which, my point was directed toward a specific individual who was telling another individual they should change their price point because it was "unrealistic". I don't think you can tell an individual their price point is unrealistic because "they're not considering the airlines costs". They're an individual. They know what they can afford, and what they find value in.

If enough individuals feel the same way, the airline has to adapt or cease to exist.

Again, that's the market.

Here is a report that was released two days ago (Turs, Aug 29) regarding the profitability of US airlines:

http://atwonline.com/airline-financ...ID=darren@frequentlyflying.com&YM_MID=1336380

As katie said, margins are very thin,
$.077 times 400 passengers = $308 profit per flight. If oil, labor, or other variable increase slightly, many airlines could end up like Direct Air, Eastern, Pan Am, or TWA. This is especially true of Southwest, as they have very labor-friendly agreements, which may not be sustainable in the long-term.

Again, as the individual consumer...I don't care. It sounds harsh, but it's true. I don't care if they make a profit. I care if they offer a product or service I can (or want) to consume. Meaning they have to meet my expectation of price, value, and/or service. Or they don't get my business.

That's "my" place in the market.

Theirs is to supply it. Or not.

Theirs is to be able to make money, or shutter.
 
Sure, I am . . .I'm completely realistic, I know what things cost; gas, groceries, taxes, oil, etc . . .it is unrealistic that airlines price gauge, but they aren't the only ones, I live in a very high taxed State . . .everything has gone up in price, but, if you watch the airline pricing, you will see them go up and down, then go way up, then come down . . .its a bunch of bull . . .just like when a hurricane is predicted, what happens at the gas station before the hurricane even happens? YUP, prices go up . . .I'd be happier if the airlines would come out with a set price and leave it like that . . .that way you know ok, I'm paying 275, 375, 475 pp and that's it . . .instead of . . oh hey, it's Tuesday oh look prices are down 30 one way . . . oh hey it's Friday, prices are up 50 one way . . .
So, IMHO, I'm more than realistic, just playing the air game like everyone else trying to get the best price . . .and glad I only have to purchase 2 tickets . . .:thumbsup2

You know what things cost? Jet fuel, landing fees, maintenance on jets, new planes, insurance.

:rotfl2::rotfl2:
 
Again, as the individual consumer...I don't care. It sounds harsh, but it's true.
This is a great place to start, as it actually makes any further discussion with you about this mute :) However, I will continue, in case others do care about why airfare is greater than historical values, and by default, their expectations.

To be honest, the airlines also know that a large portion of infrequent flyers feel this way (which is why Spirit Airlines is still around), and that is why it is humorous to hear people threaten airline staff to take their business somewhere else, as these travelers are governed by the price and not service/amenities. It also means these consumers have no real foundation to lodge a service or price complaint, the reason this thread and others were started on the topic, as even if the airline makes a concession, the person will just jump to the next (perceived) lower cost ticket.

Notice, I'm not accusing them of gouging.
I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement. I read the word :gauge" out of context, and determined it was likely mispelled,
it is unrealistic that airlines price gauge, but they aren't the only ones,
as the definition of gauge is to measure:

added for clarity:

gauge
   [geyj] Show IPA verb, gauged, gaug·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to determine the exact dimensions, capacity, quantity, or force of; measure.
2.
to appraise, estimate, or judge.
3.
to make conformable to a standard.
4.
to mark or measure off; delineate.

and appeared you went on to note the fluctuation in airline fees. What were you saying?

You're essentially implying people should fly no matter what because it's their civic duty.
This is interesting, as it was not my intention to imply this in any way. What I was hoping to do was make the argument that airlines currently operate on a very thin margin per flight. While the tickets may be increasing at a rate that causes infrequent travelers pause, it isn't simply to increase their margin; rather, it is to cover the cost of doing business. Profit margins have remained relatively the same, and in some cases, decreased.

On the other hand, it sounded to me like some argue that the airlines should set a base rate, regardless of cost, and stick with it to appease the infrequent flying public? This does seem unrealistic, as katie stated, since the cost of operating a flight fluctuates with fuel, labor, maintenance, and other forces as the day of travel approaches.

More than "to a point". It's the market at work. Airlines can WANT to raise prices til the cows come home. But the market has to bear them. It doesn't matter whether that market has "realistic" expectations.

If the carriers can't cater to the market,they should shutter.

Or find a way to operate (reduced schedules, etc) strictly off those willing to pay their prices.
I was trying to understand what was being communicated, beyond the basic economics lesson of supply and demand. Of course, I agree with basic market forces, and really enjoy seeing them in action.

I was hoping to ask for additional clarification of these points, within the context of vacation travel to/from Orlando. Would it be best to go to pre-deregulation pricing matrices? That way most of America would be priced out of the market, and they would know it. (one of the Boarding Area blogs makes mention of bringing back high service airlines)

Thanks for your time! :thumbsup2
 
Wow, the ITA Matrix (http://matrix.itasoftware.com/) is showing airfare in the $200s, with a high of $286 and low of $220 per person during the month of October for a 5 night stay (IND - MCO). Mostly on United, AirTran, and US Air with a connection.
I love ITA. it's my first source for searching airfare - even before Kayak. It's also how I determine when (and whether) I can afford a vacation :teeth:
 
Greysword said:
To be honest, the airlines also know that a large portion of infrequent flyers feel this way (which is why Spirit Airlines is still around), and that is why it is humorous to hear people threaten airline staff to take their business somewhere else, as these travelers are governed by the price and not service/amenities.

I'm not always ecstatic about jetBlue, but I'm loyal to the company. Barring an absolute emergency - which, knock wood, hasn't occurred - I won't fly another airline. When something goes wrong, I'll let them know. I get exactly what I want the rare times this happens: an apology :).

But I digress. "I'm never patronizing this business again if you don't meet my demands" doesn't give the company any incentive to comply.

I'm curious. The people who think airfare is too high (which obviously Greysword and I don't, given what you get). Do you make the same argument for all consumer goods and services? For example, I paid $10,000 for a new car nine and a half years ago. That same model is over $18,000 for the 2012 version - but the Consumer Price Index calculator shows that what cost $10,000 then should cost $12,835 now. How far do you think I'll get negotiating with a dealer?

Costs increase. No, that's not your problem, but if you want to avail yourself of the service, you need to understand that the business is a business, in existence to earn money. Yes, there are alternatives. I just priced Amtrak from Boston to Orlando in December. $268 round trip for a coach seat. Thirty hours each way IF there are no delays. Then I checked the ITASoftware Matrix. Four airlines offer nonstop flights, three hours each way, with jetBlue and it's one free checked bag ultimately being cheapest for me at $220 round trip. Delta's $195 would be a better deal for someone who doesn't check bags.
 
You know what things cost? Jet fuel, landing fees, maintenance on jets, new planes, insurance.

:rotfl2::rotfl2:

Obvi you didn't read what I wrote . . .I basically said food, oil, gas never said I knew what it "cost" to run and operate an airline. :rolleyes: Never said I would only fly if it was like 89 . . .while that would be awesome, I'm not unrealistic.

Like I said, I rather they come out with a set price from the get go, instead of fluctuating back and forth for different days of the week.
 














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