Flag removal

[dinolounger]

What is really sad about Disney's action is in treating the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia as if it contained a swastika, they are actively enabling zealots like Catvondita who are seeking to reduce it to a one-dimensional symbol of “hate.”

 

[dinolounger]

the fact people are trying to almost ignore and blur out one of the darkest hours in our nations history is disturbing

Actually, what I think they are trying to do is continue the war. The flag thing is just a proxy for a larger agenda: isolating and diminishing the cultural and political influence of the south.

 

[KYMickey]

Being PC about certain things is okay but when being PC to hide part of American history it starts becoming ridiculous!
It's our history and we should learn from it not hide it. Nobody alive today was part of this part of history yet we're still punishing people because of it. If we forget our history it will happen again!

 

[3Gsandme]

So, here's the thing. If you're so culturally tone deaf that you don't understand why it would be offensive or hurtful for people for that flag to fly over state buildings in an official capacity, I'm kind of out of words for you.

I love history. I love the south. I cut my teeth on "Gone with the Wind". I understand the deep sense of pride of place and history the south has. But, the meaning of the battle flag has been preverted just as the swastika has been perverted. If you want to celebrate your southern history, why aren't your flying the Stars and Bars? Are you all celebrating North Virginia? Because that's not anyone's argument. They're arguing that the battle flag is their heritage. Unless your relatives fought with Lee in the army of northern Virginia, shut up.

Anyone who has actually read any history understands that the civil war was mostly a matter of economics and, frankly, Lincoln wasn't an
Abolishionist and he didn't believe in equal rights. He came down on the right side of history and that's what we need to do. You can fly the stars and bars to remind everyone of what happens.

 

[umichigan10]

So, here's the thing. If you're so culturally tone deaf that you don't understand why it would be offensive or hurtful for people for that flag to fly over state buildings in an official capacity, I'm kind of out of words for you.

I love history. I love the south. I cut my teeth on "Gone with the Wind". I understand the deep sense of pride of place and history the south has. But, the meaning of the battle flag has been preverted just as the swastika has been perverted. If you want to celebrate your southern history, why aren't your flying the Stars and Bars? Are you all celebrating North Virginia? Because that's not anyone's argument. They're arguing that the battle flag is their heritage. Unless your relatives fought with Lee in the army of northern Virginia, shut up.

Anyone who has actually read any history understands that the civil war was mostly a matter of economics and, frankly, Lincoln wasn't an
Abolishionist and he didn't believe in equal rights. He came down on the right side of history and that's what we need to do. You can fly the stars and bars to remind everyone of what happens.

See i was all in about the state buildings thing because clearly that's over the line. But it's turned into a media circus and gotten a little excessive. I agree about the stars and bars though. I bet a lot of people who are creating an outcry over the battle flag wouldn't even know the stars and bars was the official flag

 

[Planogirl]

So, here's the thing. If you're so culturally tone deaf that you don't understand why it would be offensive or hurtful for people for that flag to fly over state buildings in an official capacity, I'm kind of out of words for you.

I love history. I love the south. I cut my teeth on "Gone with the Wind". I understand the deep sense of pride of place and history the south has. But, the meaning of the battle flag has been preverted just as the swastika has been perverted. If you want to celebrate your southern history, why aren't your flying the Stars and Bars? Are you all celebrating North Virginia? Because that's not anyone's argument. They're arguing that the battle flag is their heritage. Unless your relatives fought with Lee in the army of northern Virginia, shut up.

Anyone who has actually read any history understands that the civil war was mostly a matter of economics and, frankly, Lincoln wasn't an
Abolishionist and he didn't believe in equal rights. He came down on the right side of history and that's what we need to do. You can fly the stars and bars to remind everyone of what happens.

I agree that it's fine to remove the flag from government buildings. However removing it from something which is supposed to be about history is going too far. If Disney reacts like this then I hope that they never build their historical themepark.

Also, I don't agree that anyone has to shut up.

 

[peg110]

See i was all in about the state buildings thing because clearly that's over the line. But it's turned into a media circus and gotten a little excessive.

AMEN (So now we can complain about religion too! )

I don't care if people have them up or down, but it seems like everyone wants to ban them from existence. Why? Because some fanatic did awful things and he had one of these flags (Maybe even worshiped it). The point is, the guy was whacked with or without the flag. If we take what this guy did, then Jack Daniels should be banned too. Apparently it was one of his Drinks of choice.

I don't think the flag should be displayed in an official capacity of government UNLESS it's part of a Historical display. It's not the current (Active) flag (that I am aware of) of any State or Nation, so I don't feel it needs to fly over any governmental buildings. The current State flag and the US Flag are appropriate for such things.

 

[kiltclan]

OK, so, here's my stance.

The current media hubub over the confederate flag, is all about a flag that did NOT exist historically and was created in the 20th century by combining 2 flags that did exist during the civil war era. The flag we see today is an amalgam of the "battle flag" of the confederate (which would have been a square piece of cloth, not rectangular at all) and the confederate's 2nd naval jack. This flag came to creation almost 100 years after the civil war ended and was created so that extremist groups could inform others that their belief about race reflected that of the 'old south'

In the end, the decision to remove the flag was Disney's prerogative. They WERE using a historically accurate flag known as the "blood stained banner" which is why I think this has become a hot button issue because its the first historically accurate flag to be removed.

I'm not for a ban of the flag, and persons and businesses are free to choose what to display and sell themselves, BUT no one has forced a singular person other than a government entity to remove the flag. However, on that note, if there were someone who truly told me that they wanted to fly a confederate flag because of "southern pride" or "historical remembrance" I would neatly insist that they use an accurate flag.

As for the subject of other flag removal because of PC issues, no other country is using an out-dated 'defeated' model. I'm certain that if some of those descendants of Japanese Americans were to walk in and see the 'rising sun' flag, they would be offended. Much the same to any descendants of Holocaust survivors on a Nazi flag. The simple fact is, however, neither of those countries at Epcot display the flags that were used historically during those horrible things.

And when it comes to 'removing presidents from money' That is no where near the same thing. The movement is to replace 1 or 2 presidents with women who contributed greatly to society. Its a movement for equal representation, not oppression because they did something bad in the past.

ONTOP of that, to anyone complaining about the swastika, yes, this is exactly the same. An extremist group (nazis, racists) took an item with real historical significance, (a real swastika is a Buddhist symbol for peace but it looks different. the real confederate flag meant something, but the way it looks was changed) and changed it to be something intended for hate and hoped that people would never look to history to find the truth.

 

[tjevans]

Disney is often accused of whitewashing (no pun intended) history--showing only the good and ignoring the bad. By removing that flag from what was--I feel at least--an appropriate historical context, just because some find it offensive (rightly, in my opinion), isn't it again whitewashing history?

 

[kiltclan]

Disney is often accused of whitewashing (no pun intended) history--showing only the good and ignoring the bad. By removing that flag from what was--I feel at least--an appropriate historical context, just because some find it offensive (rightly, in my opinion), isn't it again whitewashing history?

I don't see it so much as that as they have only removed the flag and not the "two brothers" portion of the show within the American Adventure that deals with the civil war and slavery. They're not so much whitewashing it, as removing a portion that, when viewed without context, can be misunderstood.

 

[peg110]

Disney is often accused of whitewashing (no pun intended) history--showing only the good and ignoring the bad. By removing that flag from what was--I feel at least--an appropriate historical context, just because some find it offensive (rightly, in my opinion), isn't it again whitewashing history?

I don't fault Disney per se, rather it's a societal thing. The sad part is, is that it's not all of society and probably not even the majority of society as much as it the VOCAL society.

 

[Fauntleroy]

I don't see it so much as that as they have only removed the flag and not the "two brothers" portion of the show within the American Adventure that deals with the civil war and slavery. They're not so much whitewashing it, as removing a portion that, when viewed without context, can be misunderstood.

Well said. Putting on my "Disney" hat- I would make the same call (despite my family's Confederate history, Disney assumedly not wanting to completely alienate southerners, etc.). I do think the First National Flag (i.e. "Stars and Bars") is a good eventual "middle ground" on the issue- though probably a few years down the line as anything Confederate is under the microscope right now...

 

[Whatsthegoodword]

Every flag in that display has presided over some sort of tyranny. I guess we should take 'em all down and go hide our heads in the sand.

That flag once flew over Florida - over a large part of America. Their history display is now incomplete.

 

[Fauntleroy]

Every flag in that display has presided over some sort of tyranny. I guess we should take 'em all down and go hide our heads in the sand.

That flag once flew over Florida - over a large part of America. Their history display is now incomplete.

I agree about the history display now being "incomplete" in a certain sense. That's why I'd like to see the First National Flag ("Stars and Bars") flown as a replacement for The Blood-Stained Banner (which was incidentally only the flag for all of 90 days at the close of the war) at some point.

As far as your other point- I can't really fault Disney here. At the end of the day- it's not their job to "fight for"/defend Confederate symbols in the court of public opinion- and that's exactly what they would be forced to do here (that's really the job of the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy, The Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond, local southern historical societies, etc.). They would get shredded for continuing to fly The Blood-Stained Banner (with the Battle Flag in the canton) in this environment. Fails all kinds of cost/benefit analyses. Whatever the crimes and misdemeanors of the other flags- those aren't in the docket right now. Is what it is.

 

[Dznefreek]

Never mind read it wrong . . . .

 

[GXIncognto]

To everybody arguing that removing the flag is terrible because you're ignoring history...this is Epcot, not the Smithsonian. The former location of the flag was within walking distance of a ride about an imaginary talking purple dragon.

WDW is a business, if there's something that really makes no difference whether it's there or not (like this flag or the Bill Cosby statue) and it's going to startle/offend a certain amount of people, what's the reason for them to keep it? And with recent events/publicity the number of people that would be startled/offended by these two items was rising by the day.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

What is really sad about Disney's action is in treating the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia as if it contained a swastika, they are actively enabling zealots like Catvondita who are seeking to reduce it to a one-dimensional symbol of “hate.”

No one has more respect for the Army of North Virginia and General Lee then I do. He was a fine Christian gentleman and was anti slavery.

That said, the ones making the Battle Flag (not an confederate political flag per say) a flag of hate are the cowardly fools running around hidden under bed sheets and sicko hate filled people who walk into a church and Murder 8 innocent people or others blowing up buildings. Those people of evil wave the flag like it was theirs, which it surely is not. They are the ones that turned the Stars and Bars into a *hate* flag.

Not Disney or the other Americans that understand the history.

AKK

 

[Fauntleroy]

No one has more respect for the Army of North Virginia and General Lee then I do. He was a fine Christian gentleman and was anti slavery.

That said, the ones making the Battle Flag (not an confederate political flag per say) a flag of hate are the cowardly fools running around hidden under bed sheets and sicko hate filled people who walk into a church and Murder 8 innocent people or others blowing up buildings. Those people of evil wave the flag like it was theirs, which it surely is not. They are the ones that turned the Stars and Bars into a *hate* flag.

AKK

Well said. Agreed. Though it isn't the "Stars and Bars" (i.e. First National Flag) that the sickos have poisoned/abused but rather the ANV Battle Flag (and later "modern" variations thereof).

Incidentally- with everything on R.E. Lee's plate at the time- I somehow don't think he spent much time dwelling on flags (especially when it was changed/altered 3-4 times in the space of 4 years). I think even the whole idea of celebrating "central government" was somewhat taboo in the actual Confederacy. It was State first. Heck- GA even considered seceding from the Confederacy when they thought Jeff Davis was being too tyrannical/centralized.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Well said. Agreed. Though it isn't the "Stars and Bars" (i.e. First National Flag) that they have poisoned/distorted but rather the ANV Battle Flag.

OK.......I was always of the understanding the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia .was called the *Stars and Bars*......I am in error?

 

[Fauntleroy]

OK.......I was always of the understanding the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia .was called the *Stars and Bars*......I am in error?

Yeah. No worries. It's a common mistake- b/c there's obviously a way of looking at the ANV Battle Flag as being comprised of "stars and bars". It's the actual First National Flag that is/was the "Stars and Bars" though. When you see it side-by-side to the "Stars and Stripes" it makes sense.