Fixing VMK: CL Program, Report button, Dictionary etc

[Peri]

I like the suggestions, mostly! (lol). I must say I have NEVER seen a rude or improper CL but I know they are out there from stories read here. Perhaps on the initial application the prospective CL's should have to get references from VMK'ers before being appointed - and have to renew every now and then, with a comment period so people could say how great (or not) they are?

 

[Sparkle_Cherry]

Nobody is perfect

I know , I'm sorry if that sounded like I was bashing you. I liked all of your other suggestions, I just think that that one and a couple others could use some modifications. However, your ideas are all really good and have a point.

~C.B.

 

[Laurabearz]

"The Gold Star program doesn't exist as far as I've seen. I mean, I know it exists but I just haven't seen a gold star. Then again, I've never seen Push so I still believe that doesn't exist!"

I saw one on a suckup during Hula's last teleporter game room. He said he got it for "Helping Hula out" which is in direct contradiction to what the intentions of the program were stated. And if he reads this, he knows EXACTLY who I am talking about.

First of all he may have said that is how he got it, but we dont know if that is true or not... I highly doubt Hula would issue a gold star mearly for helping her... she just doesnt seem the type to hand out such an important thing so frivouleously (of however you spell it)hmmm on a whim....

 

[darkacre]

but...noone ever sees some of the best rooms or the best people on VMK becuase they do not stick 10 of their mules into a room to bump it up the list.

Is that something people really do? I've never figured out how to get more than one mule on with me at once.

 

[qruthie]

Is that something people really do? I've never figured out how to get more than one mule on with me at once.

I'm sure some people manage to do pack a room with mules but the way I purposely packed a room in the past was by contacting my DIS friends and asking them to come to my room. It works!

 

[mtlhddoc2]

I know , I'm sorry if that sounded like I was bashing you. I liked all of your other suggestions, I just think that that one and a couple others could use some modifications. However, your ideas are all really good and have a point.

~C.B.

Oh, dont worry about it

I would love to hear you, and everyone elses, modifications, comments, bad and good and what not. This thread is NOT intended to bash CLs (although the program I have no problem "bashing"), it is intended to give VMK a piece of my (our) mind. We know there are alot of issues in VMK, alot of frustration when we report someone and then cannot, within the dictionary, actually tell VMK what is bothering us. The CL program itself is a cause of concern (we see it here on the board) because I do believe that most people that want to be CLs want it only to get the title and badge and do not really care about what the title is supposed to entail. Plus, I have seen more than my fair share of "bad" CLs. I have reported them and gotten that lovely canned "use ignore" response. But really, how do you report someone for simply being a jerk?- The dictionary is a major cause of concern as well since we cannot communicate effectively and it is really HELPING dumb people down.

Oh crud, I ranted again lol


Dark, yes they do. Most of the "popular" room are mule villages.

 

[LittleDragonErin]

I have some issues with what you brought up, but the only one I really want to respond to right now.

Lets face it, the whole CL thing is a joke. 80% of the CLs are not helpful at all, and then a good percentage of those are either rude or abusive of their title, or both!

Okay, where does this figure come from? I look at the lists on various boards of all the CL's and those aren't even halfway complete. So I have a hard time believing any single player has met/encountered/gotten to know all (or even enough to pull a figure like this) CL's.

I'd really like to know where and how you get this kind of a figure. Or anybody else who continually makes arguments about the CL program. 80%/75% type figures always seem to be the number they pull out.

If this is truly the case, then you are in essence saying that the staff who review the applications and determine who the CLs are (and no, they are not in game staff), have a 75-80% error rate in their evaluations and judgement.

Furthermore, by giving this figure you are also speaking for at least 75% of the VMK population and their disappointment in these CLs. Again, I don't know any player who has that kind of connections.

EDIT: Oh let me add something before this response is taken the wrong way. I agree, the CL program could use some improvements. But I do not agree that it is that drastically a failure. I've witnessed (long before I became a CL) many helpful CLs. Many CLs helped me get where I am now.

In addition, I DO NOT TAKE THIS PERSONALLY as a CL. I just don't like figures thrown out that are not reasonably supported.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

I spend alot of time in newbie areas and have alot of newbies come into my room. I see what these CLs do. the 80% figure I get is because what I see is 4 out of 5 CLs either ignore,are outright rude to, or try to scam new players. 4 out of 5, thats 80% to me.

And you talk about the staff who "approve" the applications? all you have to do is pass that silly test and then it is first come first serve - no approval nessecary, just pass a test to which the answers have been posted on every VMK message board from here to HKDL.

Lets think about this here a little bit. CLs typically dominate the high scores on JC, Pirates and Fireworks within the first 5 minutes the game is open. CLs, almost every high score is a CL, yes, that is helpful to new players. Immediately fill up the high score board with hard to reach scores so that people of median or low skill level have zero chance. You have admitted to doing that yourself. LDE, you really act as if you want me to name names, and I can if nessecary. Lets not go there though. I speak for me and what I see and what I see is a bunch of little kids running around thinking they are staff and treating other people the way the hall monitors treated everyone in 4th grade.

 

[AdioSkater]

Yes I see your point that many leaders are not very helpful and they can be rude to players.

I also agree that the CL title has become a status symbol. Back when I applied and was accepted this was not the case, and still to this day I do not use it to my advantage in any way.

I would like to think of myself as a helpful leader and a person that is not abusing the position.


If you feel this is not true, please do not be affraid to pm me about it.

 

[Acesurfercarter]

I totally have to agree with you, I hate their automated email system, and I know hundreds of people everyday report something to them. I Have applied to be a CL more then five times, of course I got the message saying sorry, we're not taking in applications.

 

[LittleDragonErin]

I spend alot of time in newbie areas and have alot of newbies come into my room. I see what these CLs do. the 80% figure I get is because what I see is 4 out of 5 CLs either ignore,are outright rude to, or try to scam new players. 4 out of 5, thats 80% to me.

And you talk about the staff who "approve" the applications? all you have to do is pass that silly test and then it is first come first serve - no approval nessecary, just pass a test to which the answers have been posted on every VMK message board from here to HKDL.

Lets think about this here a little bit. CLs typically dominate the high scores on JC, Pirates and Fireworks within the first 5 minutes the game is open. CLs, almost every high score is a CL, yes, that is helpful to new players. Immediately fill up the high score board with hard to reach scores so that people of median or low skill level have zero chance. You have admitted to doing that yourself. LDE, you really act as if you want me to name names, and I can if nessecary. Lets not go there though. I speak for me and what I see and what I see is a bunch of little kids running around thinking they are staff and treating other people the way the hall monitors treated everyone in 4th grade.

Playing devil's advocate here, as I'm still not seeing any reasonable support for your figure of 80%. 4/5 out of how many? There's at least 100 CL's. Probably more. But let's use 100 for now. You would need to have run across 75 of them with that 4/5 figure to have sufficient "test data".

From what I understand of your reasoning, I can do the same and say 4/5 Dis members are jerks. But I know that's not true because I've only come across 25-30 or so of you.

Can you honestly say that you know the exact process that goes on in regards to approving of CLs? Not all of us were given these so called "standard" questions you refer to. I know for a fact because some of the questions given to me could definitely not have applied to anybody else. And that applies to 3 of my other friends (2 of which were rejected and 1 also approved later).

In regards to the high scores...I look at the lists and see about 3-5 CL's who regularly make the top ten on Fireworks. These same 3-5 were making the list long before they were CLs. In the Pirate lists, I have yet to see any CL truly be consistently on there. I'm consistently on Jungle Cruise because as of yet, nobody can get the range of scores I can. I play in the first hour and last hour because I work during the day. I need credits as well.

But regardless, VMK's definition of a community leader is "experienced and enthusiastic players, who help out." When I got my e-mail saying I had become a leader, it said nothing about sitting on the sidelines during minigames. In my book enthusiastic means you go all out when you play. So are leaders not allowed to excel in these games?

Keep in mind also that CL's are supposed to be experienced players. We are supposed to know how to play these minigames and are supposed to have been playing for some time. I can't count how many times I've spent time teaching other players (new or experienced) how to play Jungle Cruise or improve their Fireworks scores or catch more ghosts. You've seen me post detailed guides on those mini games as well. You can't very well give advice to others if you yourself are no good at it.

Final note...again I'm not taking it personal (so don't think of this as me defending myself...rather just trying to present both sides). I agree there are some CLs who do not live up to their status. But at the same time, I've seen so many of these complaints about CLs and the system where all the CLs are basically lumped into the same category as bad. Before I became a CL I met close to 100 CLs (it happens when you do a lot of big trading) and had a chance to spend time with almost all of them, enough to get to know them. Out of that 100 or so, I've only found about 10 to be undeserving. So I find it hard to believe that so many CLs could be bad. Maybe I'm wrong. After all, for all I know, there could be 300 CLs and the 200 I have not met could all be jerks.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

LDE, I would say there is closer to 500 CLs or so - I lurk alot during the day, I do not "spend time" with them, rather, I often just watch from the sidelines, I would say 80% out of, oh, I dont know, 300? 350? I have also watched them in the host rooms (yes, the hosts let them get away with behavior they would not tolerate from an "average" player.) I have seen CLs multiple CLs do everything from ignore other players while chatting, to outright ridiculing new players for simple questions. I have seen browbeating, scamming, cheating etc. I have also found that this type of behavior is much more common from CLs and Guests than from regularly named player. I would say that I spend 10 hours a day cruising VMK (mostly from work)and by your own admission, you spend only about 2 hours and play JC the whole time so how do you see what is going on?

The high score thing should also be changed, I probably should have put this in my oiriginal post - such as, only the highest of the high scores actually counts, something along those lines, meaning, if you do not beat yourself, you do not get another high - something along those lines. The high score thing and the "well, I need credits too" statement, smacks of arrogance actually - seriously, I can get about 40k on JC, but first thing in the morning, I only get enough to get a high score and thats it. I do not go for broke on 40k each and every time. But seriously, if I do not play by 10:15, even my 40k wont make it because of, tops, 3 players with 50k plus. So, within 15 minutes of VMK opening, noone else has even a chance of getting a high score. Nobody said anything about sitting on the sidelines, but is it really nessecary for one player to fill up the high score board with tiptop scores within the first 15 minutes of the day? Fireworks is a joke, I do not even bother to play unless it is for a quest. I am not that good, can only get about 220k, but most of the time I do not even make it to round 3. I am however, on the high score board in Mansion rather often, but with Mansion, you DO get only one (because it is number of games won, not highest ghost total) and you get NOTHING for being on the board.

 

[BriarRosie]

I would like to point out that the rudeness I see most often comes from
players with Guest in front of their titles.

Do I think they are all new players? No. I think some of them are on mules
trying to be as rude as possible to get their rocks off.

There are genuine Guests who are really nice, but I'm sure some of the rude
ones are those who will find themselves banned sooner than later.

 

[LittleDragonErin]

LDE, I would say there is closer to 500 CLs or so - I lurk alot during the day, I do not "spend time" with them, rather, I often just watch from the sidelines, I would say 80% out of, oh, I dont know, 300? 350?

First, perhaps you are right and all these CLs you've come across really are like this. However, if you don't spend time with them, how do you know it wasn't a single occurance? An inside joke situation? 300-350 players you only "observe" in a single situation seems thin to me as being able to draw a reasonable conclusion.

I would say that I spend 10 hours a day cruising VMK (mostly from work)and by your own admission, you spend only about 2 hours and play JC the whole time so how do you see what is going on?

OT: I wish I could play that long at work. Where do you work and how do I apply? Lol!

Anyway, the 2 hours a day is only recently as my work is busy during holiday season. Before mid-November I spent an average of 5 1/2 hours on VMK, only 30 minutes to an hour of which playing mini-games. And before I became a CL (before August) I was on much more than that and spent most of my time just hanging out in public rooms where I would also observe CLs (among other players) and maybe only 5% of the time encountered the situations you describe. Maybe CLs have declined in behaviour since then.

Back to the mini games... If you think back, I only started dominating the JC when it changed on November 1st. Before that there were a number of players who could hit the top ten list with ease including several Dis members here. Only myself and Doc are CLs. And I was topping that list before I became a CL. So staying on topic about the CLs, how is that a reason for the CL program being a failure? So it's okay for normal players to dominate, but once they become a CL, they are no longer allowed to, so they can "help" others get on the list? Not to sound like a jerk, but rather just bring about the reality of it, the next best scorer will just take that place. So again, I don't see this as a reason for the CL program being a failure but rather that is a failure in the way the minigame system is set up. And yes, I agree that the reward system on JC is very flawed. Going from 20 credits to 750 credits is ridiculous.

I could respond to your other comments in that last, but it would take this off topic and become more personal. So if you want to discuss that further, I'll be happy to do it in PMs. Speaking of which, if you or any other member has issues with me as a CL, I do not mind discussing it over PMs.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

I am not saying that you shouldn't dominate the game, I guess, what I failed to transfer into text was the fact that: You shouldn't be ALLOWED to. As a CL, you should be required to be held to a higher standard, which means not ruining Jungle Cruise for everyone else the rest of the day right from the very beginning. (But I do believe that Yavn had said JC was next up for a major overhaul). I did not purposely single you out, only used you as an example simply because you used yourself as an example.

For your other comments, it is not a one time thing, it is a frequent thing, often the same CLs with the same behavior towards anyone, not "inside jokes" - if I thought it could be that, then I would not have even mentioned it. It is not an "inside joke" it is pure meanness. nothing more. Try going "undercover" some time and see how everyones attitude towards you changes. I do not use a widely known name for most of my gameplay during the day, which is when I do the most observing - I would note that the best behavior I see is between 11am and 2pm EST. After the schools let out, for at least the next 2 hours, is when the absolute worst behavior occurs, and then again between 6 and 8 pm. Try it one day: purposely sit undercover in a normally high traffic public room or go play pirates, make sure you play with a CL and then do very badly in the game. I have done it, not pretty. I will not play pirates any more, mainly because of the sheer rudeness of pirates players, and this transfers over to CLs as well. I do believe that some of them feel like they get a free pass because of that tag, and they probably do, they would be less likely to be reported because most new players think they are staff.

LDE, I am not a kid, I am a full grown adult, lol. I have kids of my own, and guess what? My 9 year old is not allowed to play VMK because I feel it is too vulgar for him and people are too rude. Go figure. (and for the record, I am NOT Born Again, or any other type of Christian, Muslim or Jewish person - I follow a, umm, different path - very little offends me)

 

[LittleDragonErin]

I am not saying that you shouldn't dominate the game, I guess, what I failed to transfer into text was the fact that: You shouldn't be ALLOWED to. As a CL, you should be required to be held to a higher standard, which means not ruining Jungle Cruise for everyone else the rest of the day right from the very beginning. (But I do believe that Yavn had said JC was next up for a major overhaul). I did not purposely single you out, only used you as an example simply because you used yourself as an example.

No offense taken. I used myself as an example since I'm the most obvious. So no worries there. And, this explains your view much better now. Thanks.

For your other comments, it is not a one time thing, it is a frequent thing, often the same CLs with the same behavior towards anyone, not "inside jokes" - if I thought it could be that, then I would not have even mentioned it. It is not an "inside joke" it is pure meanness. nothing more. Try going "undercover" some time and see how everyones attitude towards you changes. I do not use a widely known name for most of my gameplay during the day, which is when I do the most observing - I would note that the best behavior I see is between 11am and 2pm EST. After the schools let out, for at least the next 2 hours, is when the absolute worst behavior occurs, and then again between 6 and 8 pm. Try it one day: purposely sit undercover in a normally high traffic public room or go play pirates, make sure you play with a CL and then do very badly in the game. I have done it, not pretty. I will not play pirates any more, mainly because of the sheer rudeness of pirates players, and this transfers over to CLs as well. I do believe that some of them feel like they get a free pass because of that tag, and they probably do, they would be less likely to be reported because most new players think they are staff.

LDE, I am not a kid, I am a full grown adult, lol. I have kids of my own, and guess what? My 9 year old is not allowed to play VMK because I feel it is too vulgar for him and people are too rude. Go figure. (and for the record, I am NOT Born Again, or any other type of Christian, Muslim or Jewish person - I follow a, umm, different path - very little offends me)

I do not doubt that at all, I just wanted to be sure there was good reason and support. I've seen so many threads complaining about CLs. And 98% of the time they are completely unsupported or use really bad research data to support their arguments. Call it a pet peeve of mine when it comes to those things.

I am not a kid either. And perhaps I've been lucky enough to have only encountered CLs who are everything they should be. Or perhaps they make sure they are "nice" around me. Who knows? But either way, as I stated before, if it wasn't for CL's, I probably wouldn't be where I am today. They've helped me through trades, scams, teaching me games and more. That's why I became a leader. Because of those that I've encountered.

 

[darkacre]

I am not saying that you shouldn't dominate the game, I guess, what I failed to transfer into text was the fact that: You shouldn't be ALLOWED to. As a CL, you should be required to be held to a higher standard, which means not ruining Jungle Cruise for everyone else the rest of the day right from the very beginning. (But I do believe that Yavn had said JC was next up for a major overhaul). I did not purposely single you out, only used you as an example simply because you used yourself as an example.

I would love to see a policy where the top 10 is not scores, but players, for the day. So if someone (no names mentioned, ahem) gets 9 of the top 10 scores, she is listed once, with her best score.

I don't even begrudge her the 750 points (though I hope that whole point system is completely redone) if she betters her previous high score. But I do agree that most good players -- and I'm pretty good at that game, regularly scoring 45K to 50K -- have no chance at the list and bonus points after 7:45 a.m. I get one, maybe two cracks at it, and if I mess up just once, fuggedaboudit.

 

[cteddiesgirl]

I would love to see a policy where the top 10 is not scores, but players, for the day. So if someone (no names mentioned, ahem) gets 9 of the top 10 scores, she is listed once, with her best score.

I don't even begrudge her the 750 points (though I hope that whole point system is completely redone) if she betters her previous high score. But I do agree that most good players -- and I'm pretty good at that game, regularly scoring 45K to 50K -- have no chance at the list and bonus points after 7:45 a.m. I get one, maybe two cracks at it, and if I mess up just once, fuggedaboudit.

I would love to see this. I can even get 55k and up sometimes, but, by the time I get home, I really can't even try to get a top 10 score. And I'm one that used to regularly be on that top 10 list.

As long as you can still get the big credits, I would love to see where a player is only listed once.

I would like to see the credits given out on a point basis. Like 0-10,000 get 20 (or better ), 10,001-20,000 get more, and so forth.
It would go far to encouraging people to keep working at getting better.

 

[birdmom]

Just fyi a Cl_ tried to scam me on my first day, but on the other hand cl_darasue helped me on my firs day, so it goes both ways

 

[qruthie]

I have no problem with CLs or anyone else dominating the top ten lists for any of the mini-games. From this thread, I get the feeling that it would be just fine for LDE to quietly dominate the Jungle Cruise top ten list as an undercover player yet it's not okay for her to do it overtly. I'm not about to argue the ethics of a CL using an undercover character, that topic was recently beaten to death and then some.

I do believe CLs should be held to a higher standard when it comes to helping others and following VMK values. For example, I cringe when I see CLs doing major dictionary dancing. I don't see dominating a top ten list as being against VMK values. I'm not about to argue the ethics of it, that dead horse has been beaten far too many times.

I think in this specific case, the real issue is the flawed pay out system for Jungle Cruise. To be blunt, it sucks! The only good comment I can make about the Jungle Cruise scoring system is you get 20 credits just for playing. I sure do hope the upcoming revamp is for Jungle Cruise!