Financial disaster

[Fritochips4u]

Sorry if this has been posted before, the thread is moving too quickly for me to keep up!

The pool and any other extravagances purchased in the time right before a bankruptcy filing are viewed differently. If they were groceries that might be one thing - but a pool and a vacation will be seen as stealing, since they knew they were on the verge of filing.

People like this really get to me. They are the cases that the lobbyists used to convince Congress to pass tougher bankruptcy legislation. That legislation traps people with medical debts, criminal spouses and other legitimate reasons for bakruptcy into a unwinnable situation.

Sorry for your situation, OP. I must say that I would not have been as patient as you have been, given her history with your dad.

Just wanted to say that the above is not necessarily so. I am a member of bkforum.com and there was a member that charged a vacation 3 months prior to filing and they were just discharged a few weeks back with no problems. The general rule is 60 days prior to filing. Normally, a bankruptcy attorney will make you wait if there are any "suspicious" charges, just to be safe.

To the OP, I really think your friends only option is bankruptcy. Why don't they want to file? Chances are their credit is already in the toilet, so bankruptcy really won't hurt it much more.

To answer your question Princess April, bankruptcy isn't as "taboo" as it used to be. If you file, you can go get credit the day after discharge...sometimes with rates better than those who haven't filed because your debt to income ratio is now lower.

Good luck to the OP's friend!

 

[kellia]

I am pretty sure that you can only file bancrupcy once. THAT is why cc companies LOVE those who have filed and give them so much credit, there is no way they can get out of paying it back!

 

[hinodis]

It really is making me mad that she is just not paying all that debt. we, like many others, work so hard to pay our bills. I told her she needs to learn how to live with in her means. She blames her DH. About 5 or 6 years ago they inherited a house and $40,000. It was all blown! They will never learn. I am not giveing her any warnings or advice. She called today to see if I knew where she could get discount tickets for her trip to cedar point.

 

[CarolA]

I was going to say the same thing, people are always critical of people that stiff the CC companies.. It takes two to tango, these companies have chosen to lend money to people with a bad credit history, I say they are getting what they deserve!

So you don't think that you should be responsible for your own actions?

What's the "line in the sand"? Is the person killed by drunk drive "liable" because "they were out driving late when drunks are out"? (And yes, someone on the DIS once posted that "you wouldn't be hit by a drunk driver if you weren't out too late") Is it OK to take illegal drugs becuse the cops didn't stop anyone from selling them to me? Is it OK to steal because "the store charges to much"?

Sorry, but this lack of personal responsiblity just amazes me. It's the "I don't have to accept responsiblity for my actions, someone "let me" do something. If you are an adult, it's YOUR responsiblity to act like one. Blaming a company because you can't behave doesn't cut it.

 

[ceecee]

So you don't think that you should be responsible for your own actions?

What's the "line in the sand"? Is the person killed by drunk drive "liable" because "they were out driving late when drunks are out"? (And yes, someone on the DIS once posted that "you wouldn't be hit by a drunk driver if you weren't out too late") Is it OK to take illegal drugs becuse the cops didn't stop anyone from selling them to me? Is it OK to steal because "the store charges to much"?

Sorry, but this lack of personal responsiblity just amazes me. It's the "I don't have to accept responsiblity for my actions, someone "let me" do something. If you are an adult, it's YOUR responsiblity to act like one. Blaming a company because you can't behave doesn't cut it.

I couldn't have said it better myself!!! It's not their fault because they buy something they can't afford?

 

[MyGoofy26]

But once that debt gets sold to a collections agency, the game changes.

A friend of mine dug herself a deep financial hole and now she's paying for it, literally. One guy, whose company must have had an old check, called her and told her that unless she paid $2200 immediately, they were going to go ahead and withdraw the funds from her account. She panicked, told the guy she didn't have that kind of money. He didn't care; he wanted the money and he wanted it NOW. She finally made arrangements to take a loan from her pension plan. Yes, I know; not ideal but she had little alternative. She's still getting calls about her old credit card debt. And she had no house to foreclose on.

While cc companies once wrote down the debt, I don't think they can afford to now.

What fascinates me is that these people feel entitled to accummulate this kind of debt and feel exempt from paying for it. And what a horrible example to establish for her children.

OP, it's time for your "friend" to pull up her big girl panties and grow up.

I haven't read through the whole thread to see if anyone has responded yet, but what that collector did is HIGHLY illegal. HIGHLY. Once it gets to a collection agency, it's sort of better for the consumer. There are significantly more detailed and stricter laws governing collectors than original creditors. The collector is not allowed to threaten action he can't take, and he can't legally just take money from her account. He has to have a judgment first. And my guess is he didn't, because if he did he wouldn't call. . . he'd just let the courts take.

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

So you don't think that you should be responsible for your own actions?

What's the "line in the sand"? Is the person killed by drunk drive "liable" because "they were out driving late when drunks are out"? (And yes, someone on the DIS once posted that "you wouldn't be hit by a drunk driver if you weren't out too late") Is it OK to take illegal drugs becuse the cops didn't stop anyone from selling them to me? Is it OK to steal because "the store charges to much"?

Sorry, but this lack of personal responsiblity just amazes me. It's the "I don't have to accept responsiblity for my actions, someone "let me" do something. If you are an adult, it's YOUR responsiblity to act like one. Blaming a company because you can't behave doesn't cut it.

I think the two to tango points to the "lack of personal responsibility" on the behalf of credit card companies. They can afford to lose on individuals of a similar bent because they can stick it to people who have the personal responsibility to pay their debts even if for some reason they have run them up. Our banking laws have let lenders more and more off the hook in this regard. If they didn't think the government was going to bail them out they would be more careful with their lending practices...and the same thinking applies to individuals who solve their problems through bankruptcy. Thus two, really icky, entities to tango.

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

Point your friend toward the sources people have indicated...even daveramsey.com if need be. Some people just need to hit bottom before they bounce. Unfortunately for her friend the fact that her parents can apparently afford to bail her out means her bottom is probably well past where she is now. Hopefully her parents will stick by their guns.

 

[mskayjay]

So you don't think that you should be responsible for your own actions?

What's the "line in the sand"? Is the person killed by drunk drive "liable" because "they were out driving late when drunks are out"? (And yes, someone on the DIS once posted that "you wouldn't be hit by a drunk driver if you weren't out too late") Is it OK to take illegal drugs becuse the cops didn't stop anyone from selling them to me? Is it OK to steal because "the store charges to much"?

Sorry, but this lack of personal responsiblity just amazes me. It's the "I don't have to accept responsiblity for my actions, someone "let me" do something. If you are an adult, it's YOUR responsiblity to act like one. Blaming a company because you can't behave doesn't cut it.

I haven't read through all of the posts but I'm sure there are some really good thoughts and points throughout. This one in particular did catch my eye and is very well stated.

I also have to say that I see absolutely no benefit in this friendship for you and I don't know how you can look her in the eye after knowing that she is continuing to spend money that she in no way can repay. The reason that so many things are as expensive as the are from clothing to taxes is because of the folks who choose to take the easy way (read that lazy, cheater, slacker, fill in your own adjective) out and expect the rest of society to pay their way. We have always worked and even when we barely made the bills, we made them even if it meant we ate peanut butter sandwiches for a week.

There is this overwhelming attitude of entitlement and need to possess everything in our society today and I'm about at my breaking point with these folks who just spend like crazy and then say "oops sorry....can't pay for it". I'm all for public work programs for people who bail on their bills and responsibilities. Sorry but something needs to make this society have a real gut check!

 

[Kim in SPR]

Along with rising fuel costs, unpaid debt is one of the major contributors to the downturn in this economy. Banks are closing and borrowing from other banks because so many people are not paying their debt. Indymac just went under and the FDIC is covering their shortfall. Guess who pays that?

Granted there are tons of people who got caught up in the lending frenzy of the housing market bubble and because they didn't educate themselves or prepare for the future are now going through foreclosure. But bankruptcy filings are the highest they've ever been and most of it is unsecured debt from situations just like this.

Sooo, my hard earned portfolio and 401(k) is in the toilet, but at least people like your friend are getting the vacations and pools they so deserve.

 

[Allison]

I am pretty sure that you can only file bancrupcy once. THAT is why cc companies LOVE those who have filed and give them so much credit, there is no way they can get out of paying it back!

The person being discussed has already declared bankruptcy twice and is heading towards the third.

 

[Princess April]

so basically one can run up all kinds of bills and just say to heck with it, I don't feel like paying... I'm gonna declare bankruptcy. Well that stinks. Seriously. I can fully understand that under special circumstances one might need to do this (unexpected death of a spouse, grave medical illness, etc.) ya know things like that, but as far a pure greed and laziness? PUUUULLLLEEEEEEEZZZZEEEE, give me a break. What a great thing that they are teaching their children. The Lord has blessed me with the ability to go to work everyday and make a living and I am happy to say that I pay my bills. It just infuriates me that some people don't feel the same way.... I think there should be more then just the proverbial "slap on the wrist" for doing this, especially 2+ times!!!!! What America needs is a good dose of personal responsibility....if everyone had to fend for themselves instead of taking the easy way out (you know what I'm talking about) this country would be a lot different !!!!!

(just sayin'.... there I feel better now, getting down off my soap box and putting on my flame proof suit)

 

[Fritochips4u]

So you don't think that you should be responsible for your own actions?

What's the "line in the sand"? Is the person killed by drunk drive "liable" because "they were out driving late when drunks are out"? (And yes, someone on the DIS once posted that "you wouldn't be hit by a drunk driver if you weren't out too late") Is it OK to take illegal drugs becuse the cops didn't stop anyone from selling them to me? Is it OK to steal because "the store charges to much"?

Sorry, but this lack of personal responsiblity just amazes me. It's the "I don't have to accept responsiblity for my actions, someone "let me" do something. If you are an adult, it's YOUR responsiblity to act like one. Blaming a company because you can't behave doesn't cut it.

All of your "line in the sand" examples are all things that are ILLEGAL. What you have to realize is declaring bankruptcy, no matter how much you disagree with the people filing, is not an ILLEGAL action. It's perfectly legal. If there's a case of fraud, that's what the trustee is there for...to make sure that there was no fraudulent actions.

Unfortunately, with the way this economy is, I'm sure bankruptcies will only increase.

Bankruptcies aren't just available due to medical bills, loss of job...although in a perfect world, that's what everyone on this board would like them to be for. Bankruptcies are also for people that make mistakes and who get in over their heads. Sometimes, by the time people "wake up" to be responsible, they're in so deep and they can't get out.

Just my 2 cents~

 

[MrsPete]

Just wanted to say that the above is not necessarily so. I am a member of bkforum.com and there was a member that charged a vacation 3 months prior to filing and they were just discharged a few weeks back with no problems. The general rule is 60 days prior to filing. Normally, a bankruptcy attorney will make you wait if there are any "suspicious" charges, just to be safe.

To the OP, I really think your friends only option is bankruptcy. Why don't they want to file? Chances are their credit is already in the toilet, so bankruptcy really won't hurt it much more.

To answer your question Princess April, bankruptcy isn't as "taboo" as it used to be. If you file, you can go get credit the day after discharge...sometimes with rates better than those who haven't filed because your debt to income ratio is now lower.

Good luck to the OP's friend!

People on a bankruptcy board might not see the concept as "taboo", but the general public does! The general public understands that when individuals don't pay their bills -- regardless of the reasons involved -- society as a whole suffers. While most of us have sympathy for those people who fall behind for medical reasons that were genuinely beyond their control, most of us are less understanding of people who "made mistakes" or "just let things get out of control" -- those are euphamisms that try to make bankruptcy sound acceptable. Adults must take responsibility for their own choices.

All of your "line in the sand" examples are all things that are ILLEGAL. What you have to realize is declaring bankruptcy, no matter how much you disagree with the people filing, is not an ILLEGAL action. It's perfectly legal. If there's a case of fraud, that's what the trustee is there for...to make sure that there was no fraudulent actions.

There's legal, and then there's moral. The terms are sometimes very different -- especially when a person's going down that road for the THIRD TIME.

 

[Fritochips4u]

People on a bankruptcy board might not see the concept as "taboo", but the general public does! The general public understands that when individuals don't pay their bills -- regardless of the reasons involved -- society as a whole suffers. While most of us have sympathy for those people who fall behind for medical reasons that were genuinely beyond their control, most of us are less understanding of people who "made mistakes" or "just let things get out of control" -- those are euphamisms that try to make bankruptcy sound acceptable. Adults must take responsibility for their own choices.There's legal, and then there's moral. The terms are sometimes very different -- especially when a person's going down that road for the THIRD TIME.

Believe me, even for people that file bankruptcy, the majority of them realize who ends up paying for their mistakes.

Regardless if you're sympathetic or not, people that make mistakes and get over their heads CAN and will continue to file for bankruptcy. It's not illegal. If you and others choose to judge, so be it. At the end of the day, even people that make mistakes can file bankruptcy and end up discharging thousands of dollars of debt. That's just the way it is.

I think the majority of people get so in over their heads and to protect their homes/cars they end up filing. For some people, they just don't have a choice once their debt snowballs.

 

[mskayjay]

All of your "line in the sand" examples are all things that are ILLEGAL. What you have to realize is declaring bankruptcy, no matter how much you disagree with the people filing, is not an ILLEGAL action. It's perfectly legal. If there's a case of fraud, that's what the trustee is there for...to make sure that there was no fraudulent actions.

Unfortunately, with the way this economy is, I'm sure bankruptcies will only increase.

Bankruptcies aren't just available due to medical bills, loss of job...although in a perfect world, that's what everyone on this board would like them to be for. Bankruptcies are also for people that make mistakes and who get in over their heads. Sometimes, by the time people "wake up" to be responsible, they're in so deep and they can't get out.

Just my 2 cents~

Sorry but I'm right there with MrsPete and CarolA. There is a HUGE difference between people who have an unfortunate job loss or medical crisis that makes it impossible for them to meet their bills but who nonetheless try to keep up vs. people like the OP is discribing....they KNOW they are in dire straits, KNOW they cannot possibly take care of their regular expenses let alone "extras" and yet continue to spend like it means nothing! For those of us who have spent our lives being responsible, its painful to see this happen and realize that the trickle down does in fact impact us! I'm tired of my tax dollars that squeeze our wallets every year, being directed to programs to help folks who take no responsibility for what they are doing! I would champion the cause of anyone who had a true crisis that brought them to this sad state of affairs, but there are too many folks who see the writing on the wall and simply say "oh well I'm going down so lets have another big party before we lose it all!". Nope....doesn't work in my book.

And as far as the "legal" versus "illegal" point you make, wow..... Where does that moral responsibility ever come into the picture?

 

[mskayjay]

They are charging with the cards that are in his name only. I just wish there was something I could say to make her see whaere she is heaeded.

Now seriously....at this point do you honestly believe she does not know where this is headed? These "friends" know exactly what they are doing and playing the system to their full benefit. As I read back over your personal postings on this, I think a light is starting to go off and you're realizing this needs to come to an end. A very special family member, long since passed, had a saying that we often repeated to our children and still use even today......"Show me who your friend are and I'll tell you who you are". Do you want this to be how people view you as well? Cut the ties and distance yourself from this trainwreck now and don't look back.

 

[bouncycat]

I've been keeping up with this thread for a while, and for the most part have kept quiet, but, there was a PP that mentioned something about the FDIC, and wondered who paid that? Well, actually the taxpayers have NOTHING to do with FDIC, it's the banks that are covered who pay in premiums to the FDIC, and that's where the money comes from. So, please don't blame the banks, some of them have done some shady lending practices, mostly the bigger banks, but they're paying for that now due to all the foreclosures going on in this country. Please please don't blame FDIC, they are there to help consumers, and they do NOT take ANY tax payer money. Thanks...off my soapbox!!

 

[crisi]

So you don't think that you should be responsible for your own actions?

I think BOTH parties should be responsible for their own actions - the people who take out credit, buy things they can't afford, and declare bankruptcy - AND the credit card companies who charge usurious interest rates to people who are high risk - and to those of us that are low risk to make up for the defaults. When credit card companies make the stupid decision to loan to these people, they should take on some of the burden for their own decision.

Capping credit card interest rates and fees - so that credit card companies cannot pass the cost on to the rest of us, would help.

 

[Justthe8ofus]

I'm not urprised that she has all the unsecured debt. My best friend is a stay at home mom who has not worked outside the home for $$ for about 12 years now. Her husband has avery good job and it works well for their family. They just bought her a brand new Toyota Sienna minivan. It is in HER name. It was almost $40,000. She has no income. Crazy!

Don't misunderstand. They can afford it and will pay for the loan. I was just amazed that they would give it to her exclusively in her name with no income!

I don't see how this has anything to do with the topic at hand. You stated that husband makes good money and they can afford the van. What am I missing? IMO it sounds like you are just a little jealous of your friend. I am a SAHM and I have a truck and a car in my name. I think your ideas about SAHMs and single income households are a little out of date.