Fastpass Enforcement coming?

[Senator Tressel]

The policy has always been to allow late fastpasses. Period. The current policy on parties is that you can get in at 4PM. If you want to argue that isn't the real policy, you're being ridiculous. It clearly is the policy.

The policy for one is being changed. It's clearly due to the upcoming changes in the fastpass system, not due to "abuse". I don't see how anyone could view it any differently who isn't being completely biased.

 

[pigby]

We have been to WDW many times, DLP 'quite a few times' and DLR twice.

It was only in the last few years that we realised you could use the FP's past their return time - at WDW and DLR only and it must be said, we have worked this to our own advantage ie building the FP's up in the morning and using them lunchtime onwards (usually). We have regarded this as a huge benefit of going ot the American parks.

On the other hand, DLP have only a half hour window and they are very strict about enforcing the return time - even when a ride has been previously 'broken down'. The rides that do FP's are more spread out at DLR so it really messes with your schedule - in addition, the lines to get FP are huge at the highliners and a big scramble - DLP is no fun to us anymore mainly because of these reasons.

I don't think that the American parks will turn into the 'French scramble' but what I am saying is, it could be a lot worse - but we will see...

 

[magicbob]

What is the point you're getting at here? Since they've always printed return times on tickets and on signs above the ride, does any of this really matter...?

Of course it matters. Because the issue being debated is whether using a FP outside of that window was "breaking the rules." The fact is that Disney allowed FP to be used outside of the time window displayed on the sign and printed on the ticket. They ALLOWED it. Hence, no rule was broken. Some posters have maintained that we were "getting away with" using them late. That falls apart logically. For that to be true, it would mean that if we were "caught" then the CM would refuse entry. The opposite was true. The CM welcomed us because we presented a valid FP. Compare this to another favorite topic, cutting in line. True, some people "get away with" cutting in line. However, if they are caught by a CM, they are NOT permitted to do so. They are sent to the end of the line, not welcomed on to the ride with a smile. See the difference? One action is prohibited and the other is allowed.

And regardless of anyone's arbitrary definition of "policy" THAT was the procedure that Disney put into PRACTICE for years.

 

[TLSnell1981]

It makes perfect sense if you are willing to let go of your bias and approach the statement objectively.

Conspicously missing from Disney's website is any statement prohibiting using FP after the window.

They list specific limitations/requirements such as each rider MUST [emphasis added] have a FP ticket, FP tickets are ONLY [emphasis added] valid on the DAY [emphasis added] of issue, etc. They could have easily added one more bullet that states "FP MUST be used within the window printed on the ticket." But for SOME reason, they chose to omit this from their list of restrictions. hmmmm....

Sledgehammer or brick wall....your choice.

 

[vacationclub]

Of course it matters. Because the issue being debated is whether using a FP outside of that window was "breaking the rules." The fact is that Disney allowed FP to be used outside of the time window displayed on the sign and printed on the ticket. They ALLOWED it. Hence, no rule was broken. Some posters have maintained that we were "getting away with" using them late. That falls apart logically. For that to be true, it would mean that if we were "caught" then the CM would refuse entry. The opposite was true. The CM welcomed us because we presented a valid FP. Compare this to another favorite topic, cutting in line. True, some people "get away with" cutting in line. However, if they are caught by a CM, they are NOT permitted to do so. They are sent to the end of the line, not welcomed on to the ride with a smile. See the difference? One action is prohibited and the other is allowed.

And regardless of anyone's arbitrary definition of "policy" THAT was the procedure that Disney put into PRACTICE for years.

Ah, OK, in terms of what was allowed, then of course you are correct.

Yes, practice is the key word. Policy can be debated considering they state publicly what it is. But I've never thought anyone is breaking a rule, or "getting away" with something that Disney essentially let them do. Had I known I would have done it too with no guilt. I didn't realize that was what you were defending. (the morals of it all, and not the definition of "policy" that you spent considerable time defining) This thread is very long and I didn't make the connection to your post and that particular point, since there are so many conversations intertwined here.

 

[magicbob]

Sledgehammer or rick all....your choice.

...or rick all? I'm not familiar with that phrase (and not afraid to admit when I don't know something). But we HAVE had to resort to sledgehammers on occasion to get through thick skulls! EDIT: I'm not impuning anyone's intelligence, just noting their stubbornness to accept facts and reality.

 

[origin62]

The policy has always been to allow late fastpasses. Period. The current policy on parties is that you can get in at 4PM. If you want to argue that isn't the real policy, you're being ridiculous. It clearly is the policy.

The policy for one is being changed. It's clearly due to the upcoming changes in the fastpass system, not due to "abuse". I don't see how anyone could view it any differently who isn't being completely biased.

Well, the debate is finally over. Senator Tressel has spoken.

 

[vacationclub]

The policy for one is being changed. It's clearly due to the upcoming changes in the fastpass system, not due to "abuse". I don't see how anyone could view it any differently who isn't being completely biased.

What are you basing this on? (other than intuition)

I'm just curious because so far it's only been a rumor, and some have suggested that, while a new system may be coming someday, it's not for a while and this is not directly related. Some have also shared info about direct discussions with CMs about xpass, etc, which revealed that the change to FP on March 7 is more about controlling line flows, and less about a new system that is a long ways off.

What is the evidence that would make the view of abuse a biased view?

 

[TLSnell1981]

...or rick all? I'm not familiar with that phrase (and not afraid to admit when I don't know something). But we HAVE had to resort to sledgehammers on occasion to get through thick skulls!

Brick wall! I have no feeling in my fingertips on my left hand. Sometimes, they drop letters on my iPad. You posted, before I corrected...sorry.

 

[origin62]

It makes perfect sense if you are willing to let go of your bias and approach the statement objectively.



Conspicously missing from Disney's website is any statement prohibiting using FP after the window. Here's the exact verbiage:

Please keep in mind:

•FASTPASS tickets are only valid on the day of issue.
•Everyone in your party using the FASTPASS ticketholder entrance must have a FASTPASS ticket.
•There's a limit to the number of FASTPASS tickets you may have at one time. On your ticket will be printed the time at which you can get your next one. Disney's FASTPASS Service machines won't issue another ticket until the time stated on your current one.

They list specific limitations/requirements such as each rider MUST [emphasis added] have a FP ticket, FP tickets are ONLY [emphasis added] valid on the DAY [emphasis added] of issue, etc. They could have easily added one more bullet that states "FP MUST be used within the window printed on the ticket." But for SOME reason, they chose to omit this from their list of restrictions. hmmmm....

You, and everyone else on this board know how Disney intends for you to use FP. You choose to do otherwise. I don't think you're immoral, nor do I think you are breaking any rules. I'm just pointing out that you make a deliberate decision to disregard the intent of the system, and it seems that you want everyone to think/say that's ok.

 

[magicbob]

What is the evidence that would make the view of abuse a biased view?

I can't speak for the PP, but I think that "abuse" is a loaded word. I don't know all of Disney's reasons for making this change and I will concede that it COULD be because they've determined that allowing late FPs has caused imbalance in the distribution of lines throughout the day (that's called being objective). That said, many people's experiences and observations (which are admittedly anecdotal) contradict that theory. Additionally, even if the change were being made solely to distribute lines more evenly throughout the day, that would NOT imply that late use was "abuse" of the system. That is merely conjecture from people who are convinced we abused the system for no other reason than that THEY consider it abuse (that's called being biased).

You, and everyone else on this board know how Disney intends for you to use FP. You choose to do otherwise. I don't think you're immoral, nor do I think you are breaking any rules. I'm just pointing out that you make a deliberate decision to disregard the intent of the system, and it seems that you want everyone to think/say that's ok.

Your statement is the pinnacle of contradiction. You say it's not rule breaking or immoral, but you accuse us of disregarding the intent and choosing to do what we want even though we know better. How is that NOT making a moral judgment?

As far as wanting everyone to think/say it's ok... I know I can't convince those who are unwilling to objectively look at facts. It WAS by definition "ok" because Disney considered it to be "ok" regardless of how some on these boards believe.

 

[doconeill]

I'm just curious because so far it's only been a rumor, and some have suggested that, while a new system may be coming someday, it's not for a while and this is not directly related. Some have also shared info about direct discussions with CMs about xpass, etc, which revealed that the change to FP on March 7 is more about controlling line flows, and less about a new system that is a long ways off.

CMs have posted that they were told that it was due to other coming changes...so we've got both reasons specified. No real reason to believe one statement of the other. But a LOT of the buzz about the changes going back over 6 months was to prepare for the upcoming system, and not about "abuse".

Note that "controlling line flows" also does not imply that there was abuse going on that they wanted to end, but that better controls were needed for some reason...and one of the obvious upcoming reasons is the new system, which as previously stated would need rigid controls to be useful. And you might as well get people used to the idea before you through a giant curveball at them...

 

[ftballfan7]

My 2 cents for what it is worth (likely less than 2 cents). No one was getting away with anything when they used their fastpasses past the printed times, nor were they doing anything immoral or even questionable. When one does research or acquires knowledge it inherently gives them an advantage over those who do not or have not. That is the way it should be. In my opinion, this practice was absolutely reasonable. Disney (up until March 7th) has condoned the use of fastpasses after the printed times through both policy and practice. Disney policy clearly allowed this and no one was being deceptive while using the fastpasses in this manner. For those who are being judgmental, I would say you are way overreacting.

As far as the upcoming change, I am disappointed but recognize Disney's right to adjust their policies and practices in this regard. It will affect my family's vacations somewhat, although we were not fastpass collectors. We knew we could use them after the printed time frame and this created additional flexibility for us. It is not the end of the world and will not cause us to no longer travel to WDW.

I do not believe that this change was brought on by abusing the system. I believe it has more to do with the reported changes that are forthcoming (ie xpass, next gen, whatever). I am hopeful that when these changes are implemented they will improve our vacation experience, but there is no way to know until they are officially rolled out. In the end, it is what it is. I will continue to research vacations and use past experience in order to maximize my families enjoyment within the policies and practices in effect at the time.

Good day.

I Said Good Day!!!!!

 

[origin62]

I can't speak for the PP, but I think that "abuse" is a loaded word. I don't know all of Disney's reasons for making this change and I will concede that it COULD be because they've determined that allowing late FPs has caused imbalance in the distribution of lines throughout the day (that's called being objective). That said, many people's experiences and observations (which are admittedly anecdotal) contradict that theory. Additionally, even if the change were being made solely to distribute lines more evenly throughout the day, that would NOT imply that late use was "abuse" of the system. That is merely conjecture from people who are convinced we abused the system for no other reason than that THEY consider it abuse (that's called being biased).



Your statement is the pinnacle of contradiction. You say it's not rule breaking or immoral, but you accuse us of disregarding the intent and choosing to do what we want even though we know better. How is that NOT making a moral judgment?

As far as wanting everyone to think/say it's ok... I know I can't convince those who are unwilling to objectively look at facts. It WAS by definition "ok" because Disney considered it to be "ok" regardless of how some on these boards believe.

Ok then, if a moral judgement is being made, it is by you, not me.

Also, just because I disagree with you does not mean that I am not objective, that I disregard facts, or that I need convincing. I just disagree with you.

 

[vacationclub]

I can't speak for the PP, but I think that "abuse" is a loaded word. I don't know all of Disney's reasons for making this change and I will concede that it COULD be because they've determined that allowing late FPs has caused imbalance in the distribution of lines throughout the day (that's called being objective). That said, many people's experiences and observations (which are admittedly anecdotal) contradict that theory. Additionally, even if the change were being made solely to distribute lines more evenly throughout the day, that would NOT imply that late use was "abuse" of the system. That is merely conjecture from people who are convinced we abused the system for no other reason than that THEY consider it abuse (that's called being biased).

I get that your position (and not Senator Tressel's) is that the use of the term "abuse" is a semantics issue.

I think the term "abuse" could also be interchanged with "overuse" from Disney's point of view, if that makes people feel better about being called abusers. If they were being allowed, and don't feel they were "abusing" anything, I've got no problem with that.

The question I was posing to Senatortressel was, what evidence is there that Disney is only doing this because of a new system coming, and not because of simple excessive "later returners". I won't call them "abusers".

Note that "controlling line flows" also does not imply that there was abuse going on that they wanted to end, but that better controls were needed for some reason...and one of the obvious upcoming reasons is the new system,

And the other obvious reason is that the overuse (not "abuse") caused the FP line flows to be out of the expected range. Either is possible...even both can be possible at the same time.

 

[origin62]

I can't speak for the PP, but I think that "abuse" is a loaded word. I don't know all of Disney's reasons for making this change and I will concede that it COULD be because they've determined that allowing late FPs has caused imbalance in the distribution of lines throughout the day (that's called being objective). That said, many people's experiences and observations (which are admittedly anecdotal) contradict that theory. Additionally, even if the change were being made solely to distribute lines more evenly throughout the day, that would NOT imply that late use was "abuse" of the system. That is merely conjecture from people who are convinced we abused the system for no other reason than that THEY consider it abuse (that's called being biased).



Your statement is the pinnacle of contradiction. You say it's not rule breaking or immoral, but you accuse us of disregarding the intent and choosing to do what we want even though we know better. How is that NOT making a moral judgment?

As far as wanting everyone to think/say it's ok... I know I can't convince those who are unwilling to objectively look at facts. It WAS by definition "ok" because Disney considered it to be "ok" regardless of how some on these boards believe.

Also, I'm not accusing you of doing what suits you when you know what's actually expected. You're advocating/admitting that yourself.

 

[nytimez]

For all of you who maintain that only information presented to the public on Disney's website constitutes official policy, I submit the following:

The information on Disney's website is NOT a policy statement. The purpose of the website is to serve as promotional material to present the highlights of the program to the public at large. It is not intended to describe in detail every policy pertaining to the program. "Policy" is typically what you would find in the fine print under "terms and conditions." To include all of the policies on the public website meant simply to promote the program would make the site tedious and mundane... poor marketing.

Also, there are pages of the website (such as attraction/ride descriptions) that have specifically labelled "Guest Policies" and state things such as children under 7 must be accompanied by a person 14 years or older. The Fastpass page on the website has NO "Guest Policies" label, ergo the website is NOT policy.

What's that you say? My definition of what constitutes policy is arbitrary? Then you have to admit that to state the opposite (that ONLY what is printed on the website is policy) is equally arbitrary.

Only a lunatic would argue with that!

It's like the cable company was giving you HBO for free for years and finally stopped.

Still trying to turn gibberish into analogy, I see. It's like the moon is made of stripper pasties, so Congress is trying to regulate it.

Nope. Still doesn't work. Unless this is more "pretend," in which case I applaud your effort.

 

[mesaboy2]

We mostly agree on everything, although I think you left out a key word in the 2nd sentence.

What you're trying to say, 1:is that you believe that a printed time isn't always the letter of the law, its the spirit of the law. Yes, I agree; that's exactly what Disney was doing...in fact doing it to a fault.

Also, you're trying to say that 2a:cutting off people exactly at the end of the window will be hurt some travelers and create confrontations. I agree. Disney anticipated that some will not make it on time. So instead of initially coming up with a buffer for lateness...they had a much more loosely written directive for the CMs: If they "miss it", let them in. I understand why they would allowed this; there were trying to avoid confrontations and keep the peace. I can also understand how, over time, with the help of the internet, and CM's that for whatever reason were actually openly discussing this with some guests, this very liberal return exception may have gotten out of hand. Again, a guess, I don't know for sure.
And 2b
allowing these later returners doesn't distract (not benefit, the word you used) from another guests experience. I don't really know..I don't have access to Disney FP return data or line flow. Without real data I can't accept that premise. I can only guess that there was some reason why Disney posted, and thus encouraged, return times, and that most people actually did adhere to them. Without some verifiable data we're all just guessing at how the late returners were potentially affecting their system.


And finally, what you're trying to say 3: is that upcoming enforcement will change the way some people use it. Yes, I agree here too. I think that's the one thing everyone here agrees on.....that some will not be able to do it the way they did before. And that for some it will force them to choose between doing 2 popular things at the same time (like many others have always done). So,there's no doubt some will be affected.

I think the further argument to point 3 above, something I've discussed, is that those losing this secret benefit have no shoulders to cry on except others in their same boat. It's like the cable company was giving you HBO for free for years and finally stopped.

I have no issues with this post. You're right, benefit is not the right word here--I meant to say detract.

 

[doconeill]

And the other obvious reason is that the overuse (not "abuse") caused the FP line flows to be out of the expected range. Either is possible...even both can be possible at the same time.

My only problem with that is that there hasn't been much in the way of evidence that it was overused and warranted correction. Far more of the, "See, they are changing it so therefore it must have been abused!" statements from some here on the boards, as if that could be the only reason. Which makes it less obvious as a reason. Not discounting it completely, though. It's just in my mind, given all of the evidence, statements, etc. of what's been said over the past several months, the most likely explanation is that xPASS is the driving force behind it.

 

[vacationclub]

My only problem with that is that there hasn't been much in the way of evidence that it was overused and warranted correction. Far more of the, "See, they are changing it so therefore it must have been abused!" statements from some here on the boards, as if that could be the only reason. Which makes it less obvious as a reason. Not discounting it completely, though. It's just in my mind, given all of the evidence, statements, etc. of what's been said over the past several months, the most likely explanation is that xPASS is the driving force behind it.

You're saying that because more people (from your count) on boards think its one thing and not another, that constitutes evidence? I was talking about actual evidence.

The amount of people stating their opinion have nothing to do with how obvious the reason is. A lot of people once thought that it was obvious the world is flat.

Either is possible, and the amount of people pushing their pure conjecture for one or the other isn't evidence that either is true.