Fastpass Enforcement coming?

[vacationclub]

It's only a hypothetical story to prove my point. It's meant to parallel some of the arguments against late FP use.

But, let's pretend the store entrance is the entrance to a queue. Instead of a waiting in a queue, I'm shopping instead. I might take a while. Meanwhile, someone else enters the store after park close, shops briefly and then checks out in front of me, and takes the last whatzit to boot (that I wanted but hadn't gotten to yet). They came in after the store officially closed, got something I wanted, and left before me. Kinda stinks if I'm a sacrosanct rule-follower. But if I understand that an extremely literal set of rules is not what Disney's all about, then I leave maybe disappointed but smarter for next time.

By no means a perfect analogy, but I think you get my point.

Not really. That could have happened anytime, not just at the end of the day. It also presumes that you had private access exclusive to others...but why would you? Did you really go into the store after hours just to be sure someone else doesn't compete with you for the last whatzit? Also, why do you say the store was officially closed if you're in it?
I think you're really stretching here....but what was the point you were going for here? It's possible that I already agree with you on that point, but I'm not sure where this is going.

 

[WillAustin]

There is no opinion on what FP and Disney site says as well. It is pretty clear and available to everyone, unlike meeting the right CM or comming across info accidentally. So saying it was allowed, fine with me, saying it was meant to be this way and not the way it was presented to everyone, nope, not IMO.

Sure, but my point all along has been that whether it was presented to everyone ultimately makes no difference on its propriety, at least in the eyes of Disney, which were the only ones that matter.

 

[KellyNY]

Sure, but my point all along has been that whether it was presented to everyone ultimately makes no difference on its propriety, at least in the eyes of Disney, which were the only ones that matter.

Actually the way it was presented makes all the difference here since what was allowed contradicts what was printed and this is what makes it IMO an exception.

BTW, we are on round #103, congrats.

 

[sweet angel]

I think it would've been easier to just post a poll.

 

[DeaverTex]

Blaargh. Reading this thread is like watching a three sided ping pong match.

I'm disappointed that I'll never get the chance to have a leisurely evening using the fast passes I've gathered the rest of the day. That sounded like such a cool, laid-back way to approach the World.

I'm curious about the "real" reason that the accommodation for late FP returns was discontinued. I doubt I'll ever really know. (And yes, I saw the "official" reason. Twenty years in the Army taught me that there is always the "official" reason and the "real" reason, and that they aren't necessarily even similar.)

I'm curious about what will shake out as the most efficient way to work in the new reality, but I'm certain that keeping my eyes open on these forums will show me how.

I think I'll go slam my head in the refrigerator door now. You kids play nice, ya hear?

 

[mesaboy2]

Not really. That could have happened anytime, not just at the end of the day. It also presumes that you had private access exclusive to others...but why would you? Did you really go into the store after hours just to be sure someone else doesn't compete with you for the last whatzit? Also, why do you say the store was officially closed if you're in it?
I think you're really stretching here....but what was the point you were going for here? It's possible that I already agree with you on that point, but I'm not sure where this is going.

I'm trying to say, probably in a convoluted way, that not everything is as black-and-white as a printed return time. There are cases where adhering to a strict return time detracts from a guest experience, and does not benefit another guest's experience in any significant way. I believe that is the case for FastPass in its current form, but upcoming changes to the system may upend that reality.

Oh well, on to another day.

 

[Cheesehead9]

I can't read this whole thread, but I wonder what % of Disney guests were aware late FPs were allowed. Anytime my family leaves a park and has extra FPs, we always give them to random families. They thank us, followed by the inevitable, "Wait, these are expired!"

My guess is ~60% of guests were unaware of the policy. I can't imagine all of the late FP's that have been tossed by people assuming they were no longer valid.

IMO the new changes now make it fair for all (the ignorant and those who were in the know)... however, I'm all in favor of a longer return window (120 mins or so).

 

[magicbob]

For all of you who maintain that only information presented to the public on Disney's website constitutes official policy, I submit the following:

The information on Disney's website is NOT a policy statement. The purpose of the website is to serve as promotional material to present the highlights of the program to the public at large. It is not intended to describe in detail every policy pertaining to the program. "Policy" is typically what you would find in the fine print under "terms and conditions." To include all of the policies on the public website meant simply to promote the program would make the site tedious and mundane... poor marketing.

Also, there are pages of the website (such as attraction/ride descriptions) that have specifically labelled "Guest Policies" and state things such as children under 7 must be accompanied by a person 14 years or older. The Fastpass page on the website has NO "Guest Policies" label, ergo the website is NOT policy.

What's that you say? My definition of what constitutes policy is arbitrary? Then you have to admit that to state the opposite (that ONLY what is printed on the website is policy) is equally arbitrary.

 

[KellyNY]

For all of you who maintain that only information presented to the public on Disney's website constitutes official policy, I submit the following:

The information on Disney's website is NOT a policy statement. The purpose of the website is to serve as promotional material to present the highlights of the program to the public at large. It is not intended to describe in detail every policy pertaining to the program. "Policy" is typically what you would find in the fine print under "terms and conditions." To include all of the policies on the public website meant simply to promote the program would make the site tedious and mundane... poor marketing.

Also, there are pages of the website (such as attraction/ride descriptions) that have specifically labelled "Guest Policies" and state things such as children under 7 must be accompanied by a person 14 years or older. The Fastpass page on the website has NO "Guest Policies" label, ergo the website is NOT policy.

What's that you say? My definition of what constitutes policy is arbitrary? Then you have to admit that to state the opposite (that ONLY what is printed on the website is policy) is equally arbitrary.

Good Lord, so how many drinks we suppose to have so this ^ would make any sence.

 

[ChildAtHeart82]

I can't read this whole thread, but I wonder what % of Disney guests were aware late FPs were allowed. Anytime my family leaves a park and has extra FPs, we always give them to random families. They thank us, followed by the inevitable, "Wait, these are expired!"

My guess is ~60% of guests were unaware of the policy. I can't imagine all of the late FP's that have been tossed by people assuming they were no longer valid.

IMO the new changes now make it fair for all (the ignorant and those who were in the know)... however, I'm all in favor of a longer return window (120 mins or so).

Apparently the percentage of guests was simultaneously high enough to significantly affect other people's fastpass wait times make the FP queue at the end of the day really long but low enough to create empty FP queues at the end of the day and make FP use after the window a super-secret policy (I mean procedure, I mean practice, or loophole, or oh forget it!).

As far as fairness goes, another perspective might say that the fair policy is one that gives a benefit to the people who were willing to do a limited amount of research for their vacation since as people on both sides of this issue have argued that knowledge of this policy was readily available.

For all of you who maintain that only information presented to the public on Disney's website constitutes official policy, I submit the following:

The information on Disney's website is NOT a policy statement. The purpose of the website is to serve as promotional material to present the highlights of the program to the public at large. It is not intended to describe in detail every policy pertaining to the program. "Policy" is typically what you would find in the fine print under "terms and conditions." To include all of the policies on the public website meant simply to promote the program would make the site tedious and mundane... poor marketing.

Also, there are pages of the website (such as attraction/ride descriptions) that have specifically labelled "Guest Policies" and state things such as children under 7 must be accompanied by a person 14 years or older. The Fastpass page on the website has NO "Guest Policies" label, ergo the website is NOT policy.

What's that you say? My definition of what constitutes policy is arbitrary? Then you have to admit that to state the opposite (that ONLY what is printed on the website is policy) is equally arbitrary.

You sir, have fallen victim to the classic blunder of trying to use logic in an emotional debate. It doesn't matter if something makes sense if I don't feel like it should be true.


On the analogy front, there's another comparison that was brought up much earlier in the thread that I don't remember being adequately addressed. If you have a ticket to MNSSHP or MVMCP the printed policy says that you're allowed in at 7pm, but in practice you're allowed in at 4pm, right? If that's the case, is this a moral issue? Are the people entering the MK at 4pm with only their party ticket immoral or breaking the rules? Regardless, should they be stopped? I mean, they're affecting other guests by crowding the park and getting in line before they should be in the park and it's not fair that other party guests might not have known that they could get in earlier. The web site and the printed ticket, after all, say that the party starts at 7pm.

 

[maxiesmom]

On the analogy front, there's another comparison that was brought up much earlier in the thread that I don't remember being adequately addressed. If you have a ticket to MNSSHP or MVMCP the printed policy says that you're allowed in at 7pm, but in practice you're allowed in at 4pm, right? If that's the case, is this a moral issue? Are the people entering the MK at 4pm with only their party ticket immoral or breaking the rules? Regardless, should they be stopped? I mean, they're affecting other guests by crowding the park and getting in line before they should be in the park and it's not fair that other party guests might not have known that they could get in earlier. The web site and the printed ticket, after all, say that the party starts at 7pm.

True. However if the day comes where Disney decides to not allow people in early, I would expect people to follow that rule. After a huge uprising on the Dis, and thousands of posts about how their vacations are being ruined and they plan on going somewhere else on vacation. After their next trip, of course.

 

[DRDISNEYMD]

Blaargh. Reading this thread is like watching a three sided ping pong match.

I'm disappointed that I'll never get the chance to have a leisurely evening using the fast passes I've gathered the rest of the day. That sounded like such a cool, laid-back way to approach the World.

I'm curious about the "real" reason that the accommodation for late FP returns was discontinued. I doubt I'll ever really know. (And yes, I saw the "official" reason. Twenty years in the Army taught me that there is always the "official" reason and the "real" reason, and that they aren't necessarily even similar.)

I'm curious about what will shake out as the most efficient way to work in the new reality, but I'm certain that keeping my eyes open on these forums will show me how.

I think I'll go slam my head in the refrigerator door now. You kids play nice, ya hear?

Honestly, it really doesn't take twenty years anywhere to figure that out. It's pretty much common knowledge, I think most people learn this by their first internship or job. I learned the difference between "official" and "real" in Sunday school. This is no different than my desire to know the "real" reason behind the wacky monorail hours, there's a ton of speculation surrounding this. I don't know if Disney even offered an official reason or explanation for the short and inconsistent hours. Just like the airlines, most will never tell you the real reason for a delay. I'm okay with Disney's official internal response, for now at least.

That said, I hope you get your "real" reason soon.

 

[Wadecool]

For all of you who maintain that only information presented to the public on Disney's website constitutes official policy, I submit the following:

The information on Disney's website is NOT a policy statement. The purpose of the website is to serve as promotional material to present the highlights of the program to the public at large. It is not intended to describe in detail every policy pertaining to the program. "Policy" is typically what you would find in the fine print under "terms and conditions." To include all of the policies on the public website meant simply to promote the program would make the site tedious and mundane... poor marketing.

Also, there are pages of the website (such as attraction/ride descriptions) that have specifically labelled "Guest Policies" and state things such as children under 7 must be accompanied by a person 14 years or older. The Fastpass page on the website has NO "Guest Policies" label, ergo the website is NOT policy.

What's that you say? My definition of what constitutes policy is arbitrary? Then you have to admit that to state the opposite (that ONLY what is printed on the website is policy) is equally arbitrary.

Still fighting the good fight, I applaud you sir.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

On the analogy front, there's another comparison that was brought up much earlier in the thread that I don't remember being adequately addressed. If you have a ticket to MNSSHP or MVMCP the printed policy says that you're allowed in at 7pm, but in practice you're allowed in at 4pm, right? If that's the case, is this a moral issue? Are the people entering the MK at 4pm with only their party ticket immoral or breaking the rules? Regardless, should they be stopped? I mean, they're affecting other guests by crowding the park and getting in line before they should be in the park and it's not fair that other party guests might not have known that they could get in earlier. The web site and the printed ticket, after all, say that the party starts at 7pm.

Unfortunately Disney only states, in all published material (both internal and public), that the Party is 7:00pm until Midnight. I have never seen anything that states the tickets are valid only during that period.

I do not know what the people at the Call Centers have been telling people. I do know that for about the last nine months the Call Centers have been telling people that they cannot pick up Package Tickets prior to check-in day, but I have seen internally published information which gives the procedures to allow Guests to pick up their Package Tickets up to three days prior to their Resort Check-in date.

And I do know I have seen it published internally that there will be strict enforcement of Fastpass return times starting March 7.

 

[origin62]

For all of you who maintain that only information presented to the public on Disney's website constitutes official policy, I submit the following:

The information on Disney's website is NOT a policy statement. The purpose of the website is to serve as promotional material to present the highlights of the program to the public at large. It is not intended to describe in detail every policy pertaining to the program. "Policy" is typically what you would find in the fine print under "terms and conditions." To include all of the policies on the public website meant simply to promote the program would make the site tedious and mundane... poor marketing.

Also, there are pages of the website (such as attraction/ride descriptions) that have specifically labelled "Guest Policies" and state things such as children under 7 must be accompanied by a person 14 years or older. The Fastpass page on the website has NO "Guest Policies" label, ergo the website is NOT policy.

What's that you say? My definition of what constitutes policy is arbitrary? Then you have to admit that to state the opposite (that ONLY what is printed on the website is policy) is equally arbitrary.

Conspicuously missing from the Disney website (and all published guest materials) is the fact that they will admit late-return FP holders. This is because their expectation is that you will use your FP during the time shown on your ticket.

 

[vacationclub]

I'm trying to say, probably in a convoluted way, that
1:not everything is as black-and-white as a printed return time.
2:There are cases where adhering to a strict return time detracts from a guest experience, and does not benefit another guest's experience in any significant way.
3:I believe that is the case for FastPass in its current form, but upcoming changes to the system may upend that reality.

Oh well, on to another day.

We mostly agree on everything, although I think you left out a key word in the 2nd sentence.

What you're trying to say, 1:is that you believe that a printed time isn't always the letter of the law, its the spirit of the law. Yes, I agree; that's exactly what Disney was doing...in fact doing it to a fault.

Also, you're trying to say that 2a:cutting off people exactly at the end of the window will be hurt some travelers and create confrontations. I agree. Disney anticipated that some will not make it on time. So instead of initially coming up with a buffer for lateness...they had a much more loosely written directive for the CMs: If they "miss it", let them in. I understand why they would allowed this; there were trying to avoid confrontations and keep the peace. I can also understand how, over time, with the help of the internet, and CM's that for whatever reason were actually openly discussing this with some guests, this very liberal return exception may have gotten out of hand. Again, a guess, I don't know for sure.
And 2b
allowing these later returners doesn't distract (not benefit, the word you used) from another guests experience. I don't really know..I don't have access to Disney FP return data or line flow. Without real data I can't accept that premise. I can only guess that there was some reason why Disney posted, and thus encouraged, return times, and that most people actually did adhere to them. Without some verifiable data we're all just guessing at how the late returners were potentially affecting their system.


And finally, what you're trying to say 3: is that upcoming enforcement will change the way some people use it. Yes, I agree here too. I think that's the one thing everyone here agrees on.....that some will not be able to do it the way they did before. And that for some it will force them to choose between doing 2 popular things at the same time (like many others have always done). So,there's no doubt some will be affected.

I think the further argument to point 3 above, something I've discussed, is that those losing this secret benefit have no shoulders to cry on except others in their same boat. It's like the cable company was giving you HBO for free for years and finally stopped.

 

[magicbob]

Good Lord, so how many drinks we suppose to have so this ^ would make any sence.

It makes perfect sense if you are willing to let go of your bias and approach the statement objectively.

Conspicuously missing from the Disney website (and all published guest materials) is the fact that they will admit late-return FP holders. This is because their expectation is that you will use your FP during the time shown on your ticket.

Conspicously missing from Disney's website is any statement prohibiting using FP after the window. Here's the exact verbiage:

Please keep in mind:

•FASTPASS tickets are only valid on the day of issue.
•Everyone in your party using the FASTPASS ticketholder entrance must have a FASTPASS ticket.
•There's a limit to the number of FASTPASS tickets you may have at one time. On your ticket will be printed the time at which you can get your next one. Disney's FASTPASS Service machines won't issue another ticket until the time stated on your current one.

They list specific limitations/requirements such as each rider MUST [emphasis added] have a FP ticket, FP tickets are ONLY [emphasis added] valid on the DAY [emphasis added] of issue, etc. They could have easily added one more bullet that states "FP MUST be used within the window printed on the ticket." But for SOME reason, they chose to omit this from their list of restrictions. hmmmm....

 

[tndisneyfan]

I can't read this whole thread, but I wonder what % of Disney guests were aware late FPs were allowed. Anytime my family leaves a park and has extra FPs, we always give them to random families. They thank us, followed by the inevitable, "Wait, these are expired!"

My guess is ~60% of guests were unaware of the policy. I can't imagine all of the late FP's that have been tossed by people assuming they were no longer valid.

IMO the new changes now make it fair for all (the ignorant and those who were in the know)... however, I'm all in favor of a longer return window (120 mins or so).

I have to agree. I remember trashing expired fastpasses. I didn't know until about a year and a half ago that you could still use them and I always considered myself a Disney guru. I definitely spend enough time on the Dis to be considered one.

I wish they would have a longer return window too. I think two hours would be fine. Sometimes it's hard to get back in the return time frame.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Honestly, it really doesn't take twenty years anywhere to figure that out. It's pretty much common knowledge, I think most people learn this by their first internship or job. I learned the difference between "official" and "real" in Sunday school. This is no different than my desire to know the "real" reason behind the wacky monorail hours, there's a ton of speculation surrounding this. I don't know if Disney even offered an official reason or explanation for the short and inconsistent hours. Just like the airlines, most will never tell you the real reason for a delay. I'm okay with Disney's official internal response, for now at least.

That said, I hope you get your "real" reason soon.

Often times, the "official" reason, makes your "feel" good, and accept the (moral) explanation as "reasonable". But, the "real" reason is almost always financial. "Money makes the world go 'round...."

 

[vacationclub]

It makes perfect sense if you are willing to let go of your bias and approach the statement objectively.



Conspicously missing from Disney's website is any statement prohibiting using FP after the window. Here's the exact verbiage:

Please keep in mind:

•FASTPASS tickets are only valid on the day of issue.
•Everyone in your party using the FASTPASS ticketholder entrance must have a FASTPASS ticket.
•There's a limit to the number of FASTPASS tickets you may have at one time. On your ticket will be printed the time at which you can get your next one. Disney's FASTPASS Service machines won't issue another ticket until the time stated on your current one.

They list specific limitations/requirements such as each rider MUST [emphasis added] have a FP ticket, FP tickets are ONLY [emphasis added] valid on the DAY [emphasis added] of issue, etc. They could have easily added one more bullet that states "FP MUST be used within the window printed on the ticket." But for SOME reason, they chose to omit this from their list of restrictions. hmmmm....

What is the point you're getting at here? Since they've always printed return times on tickets and on signs above the ride, does any of this really matter...?