Fake service dogs a real problems

[ladyjubilee]

We recently encountered two 'service dogs' that have shifted my opinion on service dogs. I used to think it was better to err on the side of the person with the dog.

Then we encountered a 'service' dog that wouldn't 'heel' on the handler's command. It was bizarre, especially as we were in a crowd.

And also in a crowd, a 'service' dog stuck its head in my son's lap as it passed us. Not a brief sniff, but literally stuck its head in my son's lap (my son was in his stroller.). Though we have three dogs, my son is afraid of dogs he doesn't know. Loves ours, fears others.... and my son's first fear response is aggression. We were lucky he had his blanket over his head and couldn't get uncovered quick enough to react.


ETA-both dogs had vests.


So my son is in separate setting and there are 'service' animals that accompany other children.... and we met one parent that was advocating for their 'trained' pit-bull to be allowed in the school, cause they have the right. Sigh, well, anyway I do see fake service animals as a real problem.

I really wish there was a real standard because I think untrained animals can be dangerous to more that merchandise.

 

[wilkeliza]

We recently encountered two 'service dogs' that have shifted my opinion on service dogs. I used to think it was better to err on the side of the person with the dog. Then we encountered a 'service' dog that wouldn't 'heel' on the handler's command. It was bizarre, especially as we were in a crowd. And also in a crowd, a 'service' dog stuck its head in my son's lap as it passed us. Not a brief sniff, but literally stuck its head in my son's lap (my son was in his stroller.). Though we have three dogs, my son is afraid of dogs he doesn't know. Loves ours, fears others.... and my son's first fear response is aggression. We were lucky he had his blanket over his head and couldn't get uncovered quick enough to react. So my son is in separate setting and there are 'service' animals that accompany other children.... and we met one parent that was advocating for their 'trained' pit-bull to be allowed in the school, cause they have the right. Sigh, well, anyway I do see fake service animals as a real problem. I really wish there was a real standard because I think untrained animals can be dangerous to more that merchandise.

There are trained pit bulls who work as service dogs. They actually make really good service dogs because their sole mindset is to please their person. One of the people I mentioned prior who did go ahead and get their license in NY had a pit who was their seeing eye dog. He was an amazingly well behaved dog and did his job perfectly.

 

[ladyjubilee]

I'm still not comfortable with an animal that powerful that may or may not be well trained, in a confined space with my very unpredictable child.

 

[BigAlsGal]

I will say as a business owner there's no way I would question a customer. Chances are they would probably lie. Then what would I do? Just sit there and fume about how there's not one stinking thing I can do. I'm not about to get sued over it.

I do however believe in karma. At least i still have that. Can't count on any laws to protect me.

 

[Friend of a Mouse]

A good friend here trains dogs, and 'puppies' have to be a certain age and have a certain amount of training 'behind the scenes' to take out in public to 'train'. They 'must' be obedient to all the trainer's commands.

You don't take dogs, no matter the age, that are not potty trained!

We puppy raise for Leader Dogs for the Blind. Our first puppy is guiding a woman in NC, our second one graduates Saturday, and we currently have a 6 month old.

We start taking them out at 6 weeks old. You have to socialize them within the first four months of life, so yes, they are not potty trained. That being said, we have strict rules and guidelines we follow. We watch the puppy like a hawk and if I have to carry the puppy out of a place to make sure they don't have an accident, I will. We avoid anywhere with carpet or any prolonged experiences until they are potty trained, preferring instead to stick with outdoor venues or indoors with hard floors that have easy exits.

I also carry a clean-up kit with me at all times just in case. I make my dog "park" before I go in. Our current dog hates to park in public and so I have had to adjust to her schedule, she will only go when she really needs to which makes me nervous, but she does not have accidents in public.

She always wears identification as a puppy in training and I carry an ID card in my "diaper bag." She has a mat she lays on when we are out and is not allowed on furniture, carts, etc. Our state protects dog in training, but I make sure she is not a nuisance. I have been asked by businesses to leave (against the law) and I respect that. Although I will call and explain the law to somebody later.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

and we met one parent that was advocating for their 'trained' pit-bull to be allowed in the school, cause they have the right.

They actually do have the right, if the dog performs a task to assist a person with a disability. No limits on what breed of dog may be claimed as a service animal, powerful breed or not, but the ADA does at this time limit its definition of a service animal to dogs and miniature horses. So nobody under the ADA can claim a right to having a service cat, rat, ferret, snake, raccoon or monkey.

Sorry, I meant why doesn't any manager at the store ask the two permissible questions about the purported "service" dog.

They likely know that anyone who is looking to get away with passing their pet off as a service dog will probably lie, and they are going to err on the side of not antagonizing their customers by "confronting" them.

I was interested in a case I read about awhile back regarding a school child with a disability who brought a service dog to school. The child had the right to bring the dog to classes, but under the law the owner has the responsibility of caring for the animal, and as the child was incapable of doing it himself the mother was having to come to the school to take the dog for potty breaks and feed it. She wanted the school district to provide a school employee who would take care of the dog while her child was in school. That was in a court somewhere.

 

[Schmeck]

They actually do have the right, if the dog performs a task to assist a person with a disability. No limits on what breed of dog may be claimed as a service animal, powerful breed or not, but the ADA does at this time limit its definition of a service animal to dogs and miniature horses. So nobody under the ADA can claim a right to having a service cat, rat, ferret, snake, raccoon or monkey.



They likely know that anyone who is looking to get away with passing their pet off as a service dog will probably lie, and they are going to err on the side of not antagonizing their customers by "confronting" them.

I was interested in a case I read about awhile back regarding a school child with a disability who brought a service dog to school. The child had the right to bring the dog to classes, but under the law the owner has the responsibility of caring for the animal, and as the child was incapable of doing it himself the mother was having to come to the school to take the dog for potty breaks and feed it. She wanted the school district to provide a school employee who would take care of the dog while her child was in school. That was in a court somewhere.

I saw that case too - I didn't see the results though, did you?

Locally, we have had a family fundraise to get a 'service dog' for their autistic child. They mention him bringing it to school, etc. Only problem is, the description of what they want it to do is definitely along the lines of a comfort animal, not a service animal. Also to note, the child would not be able to take care of the dog himself because of his issues.

 

[videogal1]

I will say as a business owner there's no way I would question a customer. Chances are they would probably lie. Then what would I do? Just sit there and fume about how there's not one stinking thing I can do. I'm not about to get sued over it.

I do however believe in karma. At least i still have that. Can't count on any laws to protect me.

Well, the ADA is a law that protects the disabled from discrimination. There is no law that prohibits a business owner from asking any of the three questions that were formulated by the courts to help a business owner detect the fraudulent use of a service dog.

 

[LauraLea]

I kid you not.........The last time we were at Epcot (early December) we saw a Golden Retriever with a service vest being pushed around in an Epcot double stroller.

We have also observed in Epcot a woman lifting her small dog over the railing around one of the landscaped area to allow the dog to relieve himself.

When I see things like this, I too just think to myself...karma.

Laura

 

[rideswithchrist]

I wonder what the full scope of "service dog" is. My sister just finished getting her dog trained and registered pretty much so he could go with her to work.

The only thing he is actually trained to do is be one of the dogs that goes into hospitals and nursing homes and things (emotional support animal?), but since he is a service dog, she can bring him anywhere as such, BUT she doesn't.

He will approach kids and people because he is very friendly so I think people would be taken aback that he is not just a sit and stay, command type of dog.
I would assume that would allow him to be in the parks (or Walmart).

But hey- he passed LOL. My dogs would NEVER pass, they don't even listen to me!

 

[videogal1]

Well, the ADA is a law that protects the disabled from discrimination. There is no law at all that prohibits a business owner from asking any of the three questions that were formulated by the courts to help a business owner detect the fraudulent use of a service dog.

The three questions are useful as both 1. a method of gaining information for the business owner that would allow them to come to a conclusion on whether the suspected fraud is, in fact, a fraud. and 2. as a method of letting the suspected fraud know that he or she (the fraud) doesn't know enough about Service Dog law to be able to pass themselves off as disabled or to pass their canine companion off as a Service Dog.

The business owner simply needs to learn the ADA definition of a Service Dog, easily found on an internet search, and the ADA definition of a disabled person, also easily found on the internet.
The answers to these two questions are either yes or no. If the answers are no, the animal is not acceptable.

If the answers are yes, the third question: "What has the animal been individually trained to do to mitigate your disability?" does not require that the suspect reveal ANY medical information but merely to tell what the animal has been TRAINED to do that would logically mitigate a visible or invisible disability. This question is regularly asked of me when I am out in public (although not with that specific wording... more like "Hey, lady what's yer dog do?"

Of course, if the whole fraud detection situation is an uncomfortable one it would be best left to those of us who are comfortable with the topic and who have had experience with gently confronting the people who are committing a misdemeanor with a fine of up to $200, at least here in Texas. Also, if in doubt, call the cops. I don't see where service dog fraud is any less deserving of official attention than illegal parking in a handicapped spot or shoplifting...theft of space, theft of equal advantage, or theft of property.

Many of us who have used a Service Dog for any length of time have probably experienced someone calling the police in an attempt to force the dog to leave the premises...(Ethnic restaurants are notorious for it.) That's why for handlers carrying a small copy of the specific points of law in the dog's vest or a wallet is always a good idea... Sometimes even the cops are fuzzy on the particulars of the law themselves.
Someone engaging in fraud is unlikely to be carrying such a document...or even know such a thing exists...you could always ask if they by any chance have a small laminated copy on hand...

You could always give your local police station a call and find out how they feel about getting a Service Dog fraud call. Most frauds would probably not hang around to await the arrival of the police.

 

[seashoreCM]

I can't think of a situation off the top of my head now but are there situations where only so many service animals can be accommodated at a time, for example on a bus and additional persons with service animals have to take the next bus?

Are there any allowable measures a business may take to see who gets to be accommodated other than by using first come first served? (If there is no limit on the number of service animals then there is no need to be concerned about fraud.)

I would say that someone who is training a service animal should defer to someone who is using a service animal.

Does the aggrieved person or the business manager have the wherewithal to deal with someone who sticks his knee or umbrella in the aggrieved person's ribs and can handle in the same fashion the person who lets his service dog stick his nose in the aggrieved person's face?

 

[lanejudy]

I wonder what the full scope of "service dog" is. My sister just finished getting her dog trained and registered pretty much so he could go with her to work.

The only thing he is actually trained to do is be one of the dogs that goes into hospitals and nursing homes and things (emotional support animal?), but since he is a service dog, she can bring him anywhere as such, BUT she doesn't.

He will approach kids and people because he is very friendly so I think people would be taken aback that he is not just a sit and stay, command type of dog.
I would assume that would allow him to be in the parks (or Walmart).

But hey- he passed LOL. My dogs would NEVER pass, they don't even listen to me!

Sorry to rain on your parade, but your sister wasted her money on a scam. There is no registry for a service dog. Her dog may be trained as a "therapy dog" to visit patients. But without specific training to perform a specific task for your sister related to daily living, it is not a service animal under the law. The paper certificate and/or vest your sister obtained means nothing, and does not even give her the right to take the dog to work except that her employer apparently allows it. But if there is an issue, her right to have the dog at work would not be protected under the ADA.

 

[SueM in MN]

I wonder what the full scope of "service dog" is. My sister just finished getting her dog trained and registered pretty much so he could go with her to work.

The only thing he is actually trained to do is be one of the dogs that goes into hospitals and nursing homes and things (emotional support animal?), but since he is a service dog, she can bring him anywhere as such, BUT she doesn't.

He will approach kids and people because he is very friendly so I think people would be taken aback that he is not just a sit and stay, command type of dog.
I would assume that would allow him to be in the parks (or Walmart).

But hey- he passed LOL. My dogs would NEVER pass, they don't even listen to me!

The 3 questions to her (or anyone with a Service Dog) would be:
1) Are you disabled?

2) Is this your Service Dog?

3) What has the dog been individually trained to do to meet needs associated with your disability?

It sounds like she is maybe not disabled, but just wants to bring her dog to work? If the answer to any of the first 2 questions is no or the answer to question 3 is that the dog has not been trained in something to meet a disability related need, it's not a Service Dog.

If the dog has been trained to, for example, visit in Nursing Homes and hospitals, he is not a Service Dog. That would be a Therapy Dog - they are trained to be comfortable with many different people petting them and, basically just be a comfort.
There are Emotional Support Dogs - they are not Service Dogs, they are primarily there to provide comfort to the owner, by being there to pet, hold or care for. Those are not things a dog needs training to do and Emotional Support Dogs do not meet the definition of Service Dog.

The last point, any dog that is friendly, approaching people looking for pets is not doing what a Service Dog needs to do - which is concentrating on the disabled person. One Service Dog trainer told us that the Service Dog's First job is to be invisible.

 

[Belle0101]

As for scams -

My sister moved to FL last year and the place she wanted to rent, and ultimately did rent, only allows 1 pet and she has 2. The real estate agent that helped her find the place told her that if she "registered them as service animals" (their words, not mine) then the apartment manager couldn't decline to rent to her.

I don't know the name of the business but all she had to do was pay $40 per dog and she received papers and a vest for each dog. She calls them her Service Dogs and truly believes that she can take them wherever she chooses.

I have 5 dogs and asked, if I paid $200 ($40/per dog) could I rent next to her, take my dogs to Disney, to Publix, basically wherever I wanted? She said that the business she registered hers through told her no one can stop her from taking the registered dogs anywhere she chooses to take them.

If I understand correctly, renting is a separate issue than taking your dogs to Disney or wherever, but it's a shame that businesses make those sorts of claims. I think the real estate agent is in the wrong too for telling her they would be Service Dogs.

Maybe it's an even bigger shame that people fall for the scams.

 

[rideswithchrist]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but your sister wasted her money on a scam. There is no registry for a service dog. Her dog may be trained as a "therapy dog" to visit patients. But without specific training to perform a specific task for your sister related to daily living, it is not a service animal under the law. The paper certificate and/or vest your sister obtained means nothing, and does not even give her the right to take the dog to work except that her employer apparently allows it. But if there is an issue, her right to have the dog at work would not be protected under the ADA.

It may just be that, her employer would allow him to be there since he is a therapy dog- she specifically said Therapy Dog, not a Service Dog.
Knowing that then, I wonder how many people get theirs trained as a therapy dog and then bend the rules to try to make them like a service dog.

I know the training is very different for sure, when I was a tech there was a dog that failed the final tests and she was the smartest dog ever- she just would not sit still because she was such a happy dog.
It is sad when people fake it when so many people can really benefit by service animals.

 

[videogal1]

I can't think of a situation off the top of my head now but are there situations where only so many service animals can be accommodated at a time, for example on a bus and additional persons with service animals have to take the next bus?

Are there any allowable measures a business may take to see who gets to be accommodated other than by using first come first served? (If there is no limit on the number of service animals then there is no need to be concerned about fraud.)

I would say that someone who is training a service animal should defer to someone who is using a service animal.

Does the aggrieved person or the business manager have the wherewithal to deal with someone who sticks his knee or umbrella in the aggrieved person's ribs and can handle in the same fashion the person who lets his service dog stick his nose in the aggrieved person's face?

1. Think of a Service Dog as a medical appliance, a living wheelchair of sorts. If you're speaking of lack of space, a Service Dog can bend and shape itself to available space, unlike a wheelchair. On a bus or in a taxi, or in an elevator, or...wherever, there is just so much space but you could not say "sorry, no more room for another service dog, it'll have to take the next one." The handler is the rider and the adaptive device is no more separate from the handler than a large backpack is from another rider, or a purse, or big shoes..."Excuse me, Ma'am, could you please take the next vehicle...there's no room for another purse in here"... " I'm sorry, Sir, our quota of briefcases is met... "Sorry, Sonny, your brace is taking up too much room, you'll have to put it on the next elevator"...

If you're not referring to space considerations, though, I know of, and have seen only, one place at WDW where there is a specific tie-down used for the protection of Service Dogs that would limit Service Dog capacity. When that tie down use limit is reached, I guess, no more Service Dogs until the next AK safari ride vehicle.... Same with tie downs on buses for wheelchairs...

2. Businesses must accommodate according to the law. There are no favorites. That is what the ADA is about. Accommodation without favoritism. The number of Service Dogs is not part of the fraud discussion. The behavior of Service Dog frauds, however, is.

3. Someone who is training a service dog is bound by state law, not the ADA.

4. The behavior of a Service Dog must be acceptable to the business and its customers. Any complaints about Service Dog behavior in a business should be referred to the manager or, to the Security Office if the animal poses a threat.

 

[peemagg]

A service dog doesn't always mean a big dog. It could be a little dog too, because of what it is trained to do for the person does not require it to be big. This could be one that detects things like seizures, diabetic dogs, even some PTSD dogs can be small.

My service dog is a Miniature Poodle who weighs all of 6lbs and is trained to detect and get me help in the event of a seizure or if my PTSD is triggered. She behaves just as a big one does because she is trained to do that. When in public she is trained to act appropriately. She does not bark in public EVER unless I need help. She was trained to do that. You also won't find her on tables or eating off of plates when at restaurants or home.

You can't always say a dog is or isn't a service dog by just its size alone.

 

[SueM in MN]

A service dog doesn't always mean a big dog. It could be a little dog too, because of what it is trained to do for the person does not require it to be big. This could be one that detects things like seizures, diabetic dogs, even some PTSD dogs can be small.

My service dog is a Miniature Poodle who weighs all of 6lbs and is trained to detect and get me help in the event of a seizure or if my PTSD is triggered. She behaves just as a big one does because she is trained to do that. When in public she is trained to act appropriately. She does not bark in public EVER unless I need help. She was trained to do that. You also won't find her on tables or eating off of plates when at restaurants or home.

You can't always say a dog is or isn't a service dog by just its size alone.

I would agree with that.
A young lady in my daughter's dance class had a small Service Dog. He detected seizures and assisted her by going to another room to get help for her when needed. Because she used a power wheelchair, a dog small enough to sit in her lap was easier for her to keep track of while driving the wheelchair.
Her dog never made a sound and sat in her lap quietly for an entire 1 hour dance class.

 

[cmwade77]

I wonder what the full scope of "service dog" is. My sister just finished getting her dog trained and registered pretty much so he could go with her to work.

The only thing he is actually trained to do is be one of the dogs that goes into hospitals and nursing homes and things (emotional support animal?), but since he is a service dog, she can bring him anywhere as such, BUT she doesn't.

He will approach kids and people because he is very friendly so I think people would be taken aback that he is not just a sit and stay, command type of dog.
I would assume that would allow him to be in the parks (or Walmart).

But hey- he passed LOL. My dogs would NEVER pass, they don't even listen to me!

Actually, if he is not trained to do specific tasks, he is not a service animal but is an emotional support animal and cannot be taken into most places that dogs are not allowed. He can be taken to hospitals, but that is about it. He would not be allowed in the parks, walmart, any restaurants that serve food, etc.