Explosions and shootings in Paris

[pat fan]

They belong here. Revoking US citizenship for someone BORN here is virtually impossible (indeed, they must "renounce" their US citizenship, it cannot be taken away).

Can you lose citizenship?

The Constitution prevents the U.S. government from involuntarily stripping individuals of their citizenship. However, a person will no longer be a U.S. citizen if, by a preponderance of the evidence, officials can prove that the individual intended to renounce his U.S. citizenship.

Federal law lists a number of "potentially expatriating acts." If done voluntarily and with the intent to relinquish citizenship, the following acts will cause you to lose citizenship:

• Serving in the armed forces of a foreign country engaged in hostilities against the U.S.
• Taking an officer position in the armed forces of a foreign state
• Being convicted of treason
• Taking an oath or affirmation to a foreign state
• Working for a foreign government when you are of that nationality

Shown Here:
Introduced in Senate (09/08/2014)
Expatriate Terrorists Act - Amends the Immigration and Nationality Act to include among the grounds for loss of U.S. nationality by a native-born or naturalized citizen:

• taking an oath or making a declaration of allegiance to a foreign terrorist organization after attaining the age of 18; or
• becoming a member of or providing training or material assistance to any foreign terrorist organization that such person knows or has reason to know will engage in hostilities against the United States, or will commit acts of terror against the United States or U.S. nationals.

 

[pat fan]

If I live to 100 I'll never understand how anyone comes to the viewpoint that slaughtering unarmed civilians is the way to win hearts and minds to an ideology.

I personally agree with you, but apparently this works for their particular brand of crazy. Every time they do something like this and get away with it, more flock to them.

 

[BadPinkTink]

Watching SKY NEWS LIVE, something going on in Paris, gun shoots heard in the area of Place de la République Paris, sky news reporter seeing lots of flashing blue lights heading in one direction

 

[pat fan]

Watching SKY NEWS LIVE, something going on in Paris, gun shoots heard in central Paris, sky news reporter seeing lots of flashing blue lights heading in one direction

****. Hope it's just a garden variety crime happening.

 

[asta]

I was one of those posters in the thread on Syrian refuges who was judged as being uncaring and unsympathetic when I called for caution on letting those people enter western cultures unchecked. This is one of those cases where I am very saddened to have been right. Western civilization is now dealing with levels of depravity from these extremists that call for responses that don't comfortably fit with our existing laws or the old ways of fighting evil.

We have just spent a week in the US honoring our veterans and remembering their sacrifices. It is hard to look in a war veterans face without knowing that they are probably haunted by killing. They did not choose their wars any more than we choose to fight this one but these attacks must be responded to in a way that lets the terrorists know there is a price to be paid beyond their worthless, miserable lives they are so willing to give up. Many innocent people lost their life to end World War II when the hard decision was made to drop atomic bombs. I of course am not calling for that type of horrible force to ever be used again. I am just pointing out that since war has been declared by this one group of Islamic people you can expect there will be damage to many innocents among them.

We have to fight to remove these people from the face of the the earth. It would be much more effective if their fellow Islamic believers fought along side us to destroy their way of thinking. The refugees have proven that running from the monsters among them has done nothing to make the world safer.

 

[mnrose]

Can you lose citizenship?

The Constitution prevents the U.S. government from involuntarily stripping individuals of their citizenship. However, a person will no longer be a U.S. citizen if, by a preponderance of the evidence, officials can prove that the individual intended to renounce his U.S. citizenship.

Federal law lists a number of "potentially expatriating acts." If done voluntarily and with the intent to relinquish citizenship, the following acts will cause you to lose citizenship:

• Serving in the armed forces of a foreign country engaged in hostilities against the U.S.
• Taking an officer position in the armed forces of a foreign state
• Being convicted of treason
• Taking an oath or affirmation to a foreign state
• Working for a foreign government when you are of that nationality

Shown Here:
Introduced in Senate (09/08/2014)
Expatriate Terrorists Act - Amends the Immigration and Nationality Act to include among the grounds for loss of U.S. nationality by a native-born or naturalized citizen:

• taking an oath or making a declaration of allegiance to a foreign terrorist organization after attaining the age of 18; or
• becoming a member of or providing training or material assistance to any foreign terrorist organization that such person knows or has reason to know will engage in hostilities against the United States, or will commit acts of terror against the United States or U.S. nationals.

This was a bill, not passed, introduced by Senator Cruz (I believe). So, this is NOT the law of the land. And, honestly, would you want your US citizenship hanging by a "preponderance of the evidence" standard? I doubt it. And, I assume one reason this didn't pass. Heck we don't even lock people up in jail unless they've been proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt." I could see a "reasonable doubt" standard being used, and depending on what would have to be shown. But, again, where would you "deport" them to once you've "revoked" their citizenship? They would become "person without country" and you can't even leave the US without a passport. You've "revoked" their citizenship...then what?

 

[mnrose]

I personally agree with you, but apparently this works for their particular brand of crazy. Every time they do something like this and get away with it, more flock to them.

What do you mean by "Get away with it." They were successful (sadly) but they are also dead.

 

[Disneylover99]

What do you mean by "Get away with it." They were successful (sadly) but they are also dead.

The frontline terrorists have no intention of coming out of these strikes alive. Hence the term, "suicide bombers". Killing themselves rather then being captured is success for the terrorists.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

What do you mean by "Get away with it." They were successful (sadly) but they are also dead.

They got away with it because
A- They caused the fear, grief and destruction they wanted...
B- The suicide bombers consider themselves to be martyrs.

 

[wilkeliza]

This was a bill, not passed, introduced by Senator Cruz (I believe). So, this is NOT the law of the land. And, honestly, would you want your US citizenship hanging by a "preponderance of the evidence" standard? I doubt it. And, I assume one reason this didn't pass. Heck we don't even lock people up in jail unless they've been proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt." I could see a "reasonable doubt" standard being used, and depending on what would have to be shown. But, again, where would you "deport" them to once you've "revoked" their citizenship? They would become "person without country" and you can't even leave the US without a passport. You've "revoked" their citizenship...then what?

After 9/11 there were many many people locked up with out reason. The NYPD counter teeriosm task force was arresting people for imigration issues and then leaving them in jail for years. Others were locked up simply because their name matched a known terriost even though they were not that person.

 

[asta]

What do you mean by "Get away with it." They were successful (sadly) but they are also dead.

Some may be dead but many of their fellow believers are still alive. They are the ones getting away with it.

 

[TLSnell1981]

SKY NEWS reporting one of the attackers was of Algerian background, who had been living in France, who then travelled to Syria to train with ISIS and then returned to Europe via Greece using a FAKE Syrian passport.

This was and is a concern of the open door policy. It was and is a valid argument, against allowing EVERYONE through, without verification.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think it is very, very hard to protect yourself against single (or small groups of) armed attackers. Your only hope is intelligence to stop them in advance, and with small groups (or a lone gunman) very, very, very hard to do. It's easy to get weapons in this country (we've had this discussion many times). Easy to arm yourself, and if you are hellbent on killing a bunch of people in a crowded place, you can. It's that simple. Yes, we can hope that someone else is there with a gun to stop them (and knows how to properly use that gun so as not to increase the body count). But, seriously, is there anything else you can do? I don't think so.

I suppose we can do a LOT more screening (ala airport screenings) at places where people gather...concerts, sporting events, malls, etc), but this costs a great deal of money (who's paying?), AND is going to result in us screening out all those "concealed carry people" who are supposedly going to rush in and save us all from the mad gunman. You really could NOT set up an effective system where you let in some people with guns, and screen out other people with guns...again, especially considering the "home grown" terrorist thing.

Many of these lone gunman (in this country anyway) are homegrown OR have been here for a very long time. Should we start rounding up all loners? All people of Middle Eastern descent? All (insert group name here)? Probably not. Should we screen people on a watch list and work on deporting them (within legal means)? Certainly. Homegrown people are a much different problem. You can't "deport" them. They belong here. Revoking US citizenship for someone BORN here is virtually impossible (indeed, they must "renounce" their US citizenship, it cannot be taken away). You can't lock them up, unless and until they ACTUALLY do something illegal. We can't (and never should) lock up people for "evil thoughts" alone (beyond the issue of how you even prove they are having evil thoughts). And, unfortunately (again) most of the time, their first illegal action is lethal, and results in their own death.

So, I just don't know what you CAN do in the short term when you've got people who don't play by conventional rules. Conventional rules say that self-preservation is goal number one...that is, people don't do this type of stuff because the chances of you surviving the attack are virtually nil. Therefore, you don't do it. But, these young men (almost universally young men) don't share that goal. They don't care if they die.

If that is true, we've got to work on that part. We've got to get them to care whether they live or die. Much harder nut to crack, I think.

There are so many levels to it.

Homegrown/lone wolf
Regional
Global

And then domestically we have people who aren't jihadists, but perhaps mentally ill. (Although they seem to be taking lessons from ISIS in some cases.)

We absolutely should look at why these young men radicalize. But there's so much more to it, too, here and abroad. I believe it will take all of us to band together to solve the problem, and that seems to finally be happening now, as in the last several weeks, anyway, with a surge from many after this weekend's events.

Having technical difficulties today so keeping this simple, but I also think we need to look mostly forward here and resist the urge to rehash the past - there's plenty of blame to go around and fighting about it only distracts and divides us. This is really and now a problem of all humanity.

 

[Disneylover99]

Watching SKY NEWS LIVE, something going on in Paris, gun shoots heard in the area of Place de la République Paris, sky news reporter seeing lots of flashing blue lights heading in one direction

There was mass pandemonium in the last half hour or so outside a memorial. Nobody seems quite sure what happened. But there was a big crowd and everyone started to run. I'm surprised nobody was seriously injured. Scary.

 

[BadPinkTink]

Watching SKY NEWS LIVE, something going on in Paris, gun shoots heard in the area of Place de la République Paris, sky news reporter seeing lots of flashing blue lights heading in one direction

****. Hope it's just a garden variety crime happening.

There was mass pandemonium in the last half hour or so outside a memorial. Nobody seems quite sure what happened. But there was a big crowd and everyone started to run. I'm surprised nobody was seriously injured. Scary.

All clear, false alarm, although perfectly understandable considering what happened on Friday. Apparently some people in a restaurant in Place de la République thought they heard something and rushed out of the restaurant, which in turn spooked all the people at one of the candle / flower memorials in Place de la République. Thats why the police cars raced to that area

 

[TLSnell1981]

I am NOT saying that allowing refugees into our country is a good idea, however, even if we refuse every single person, the reality is the terrorists will continue to terrorize, they will continue to get into our country one way or another, and they will be successful on occasion in causing destruction and devastation. In my opinion, there is absolutely no way to take them all out. We can take precautions, but as we've shown in the past, background checks don't always mean much. This isn't as "simple" as WWll. We don't know who the enemy is. They can be our own citizens, living in caves across the globe, or mixed in with packs of truly good people. This isn't a war where we go off and dig trenches and exchange gun fire with the enemy until one side prevails. These guys are like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Considering the population in this world, they really do make up a very small percentage, yet they are able to cause massive destruction. It's just so sad.

But an open door policy is suicide. IMO

 

[pat fan]

This was a bill, not passed, introduced by Senator Cruz (I believe). So, this is NOT the law of the land. And, honestly, would you want your US citizenship hanging by a "preponderance of the evidence" standard? I doubt it. And, I assume one reason this didn't pass. Heck we don't even lock people up in jail unless they've been proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt." I could see a "reasonable doubt" standard being used, and depending on what would have to be shown. But, again, where would you "deport" them to once you've "revoked" their citizenship? They would become "person without country" and you can't even leave the US without a passport. You've "revoked" their citizenship...then what?

The first part I put up is actually there, the second bit was the proposal. A first proposal was put out in 2010, but was too vague so it didn't pass. There were hopes the second one would pass as it was narrower and clearer but I don't think it did. It was pretty specific, I didn't paste the whole thing as I said, I don't think it passed. Why clog the DIS up with something that isn't "real". Just wanted to show there have been attempts to do something about the ones who leave, get trained, and then come back.

What do you mean by "Get away with it." They were successful (sadly) but they are also dead.

It's not them personally I am referring to, but the Caliphate and state of ISIS. "They" succeeded and "got away with it" because it was...mission accomplished. So far, and I will bet you not in the near future, there hasn't been anything done to seriously hurt them. So, again, success.

 

[bcla]

Heck we don't even lock people up in jail unless they've been proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Not quite. One can be incarcerated pending trial. More often than not bail is offered, but there are cases where no bail is offered if the suspect may be a flight risk or depending on the severity of the charges.

 

[mnrose]

Just so it's clear, the law of this land is that "natural born" US citizens can only have their citizenship revoked if they "voluntarily" renounce it. The first bit you posted was based on a US Supreme Court case where a person who held dual citizenship from birth (Mexico and the United States) EXPRESSLY renounced his US citizenship. He later changed his mind and sued to get it back. The court held (in part):

1. In establishing loss of citizenship, the Government must prove an intent to surrender United States citizenship, not just the voluntary commission of an expatriating act such as swearing allegiance to a foreign nation. Congress does not have any general power to take away an American citizen's citizenship without his "assent," which means an intent to relinquish citizenship, whether the intent is expressed in 387 U.S. 253 . Pp. 258-263.

So in the case of our home grown terrorists, they'd have to do something more than commit an expatriating act (such as training in a terrorist camp). That alone is not going to do it.

I stand by my earlier opinion that your homegrown terrorist is a major issue. We can't get "rid" of them in any easy fashion. Very difficult, at best.

 

[cabanafrau]

There are so many levels to it.

Homegrown/lone wolf
Regional
Global

And then domestically we have people who aren't jihadists, but perhaps mentally ill. (Although they seem to be taking lessons from ISIS in some cases.)

We absolutely should look at why these young men radicalize. But there's so much more to it, too, here and abroad. I believe it will take all of us to band together to solve the problem, and that seems to finally be happening now, as in the last several weeks, anyway, with a surge from many after this weekend's events.

Having technical difficulties today so keeping this simple, but I also think we need to look mostly forward here and resist the urge to rehash the past - there's plenty of blame to go around and fighting about it only distracts and divides us. This is really and now a problem of all humanity.

Another frightening wrinkle is the known fact that there have been inroads made in our prison system to radicalize as many incarcerated inmates as possible. In light of the attacks I had heard commentary on the BBC that France has been wrestling with the same problem.

Frightening to realize that for those who seek to terrorize civilized society their soldiers don't need to be trained, they don't need to be strong adherents of the "faith" or ideology, they don't need to be funded, they don't need to be anything but riled up to stir up trouble any and everywhere, effectively operating as cannon fodder when the are released into society again.