Every Wish That We Put Into Motion.... (comments welcome!)

[avondale]

Because let's be honest: David Roche's "beginners trail 50k training plan" was not written with someone who is planning go sub 15min/mi on race day at the forefront.

Yes, it's really hard to know who a plan's target audience really is. One person's "beginner" is very different from another person's.

This week has my running 35k (almost 22mi) on Saturday and having Sunday off (I usually am scheduled to run 6+mi on Sundays) and then the following week (which I had written differently from the online plan) as my peak week we had previously discussed me going 20+ on Saturday and then 6-10mi on Sunday instead of the published 10 and then 6-10 (weather/heat permitting.)

To summarize:
July 26: 22 mi
July 27: off
--
Aug. 2: 20 mi
Aug. 3: 6 mi
--
Aug. 9: ?? I was confused by the last bit in your text about this
Aug. 10:??
--
Aug. 16/17: taper
--
Aug. 23/24: race

So the Aug. 9/10 week should definitely be starting the taper, but probably on the order of at least a half-marathon for the longer of the two runs.

Yeah, training for a 50k involves a lot of miles and a lot of time. You can't just somehow jump up to that kind of time and mileage - you have to build it. That's what you're doing.

Comparing to Dopey only gets you so far, because your marathon on Dopey wasn't as long in either distance or time as you're expecting this 50k to be. And the trails are more difficult than going through DW. You have to put in more training for this. But you are almost there!

Anyway, at this point, I don't think I'd suggest changing anything in your plan. I still feel like the ordering and totals of the July 26/27 and Aug. 2/3 weekends is a bit odd, but there may be some training subtlety that I'm missing. And mentally it sounds like you wouldn't be good with adding anything to the Aug. 2/3 weekend.

Once you get over the hump of the Aug. 2/3 weekend and start to taper, you'll start feeling better because you'll won't be running so much, so you will actually start to recover. And that's the whole idea.

I'd be lying if I said things went great mentally. It was really up and down in parts...literally mile-to-mile would be a change just past mile 14 where I would feel great, and then feel horrible. But even though I wasn't thrilled to do this run on my own, it was probably a really good thing for me. I also firmly believe that having multiple nights of poor/less-than usual sleep messed with this as well.

This was also good prep for your race. Your emotions will be all over the place, and you already know you're going to have a tough time getting sleep before the race. I guess take this as emphasizing to you how much you need to focus on the importance of sleep in the 7 - 10 days before the race, since you won't necessarily get a lot of sleep the night or two before.

it's about a 5.7% grade, so it's not terribly steep

That's a pretty respectable grade. I'd be walking that for sure, especially with that distance. Practicing the power-walking on the treadmill will help.


You are in the homestretch, so don't give up on the training now!

 

[Herding_Cats]

Yes, it's really hard to know who a plan's target audience really is. One person's "beginner" is very different from another person's.

To summarize:
July 26: 22 mi
July 27: off
--
Aug. 2: 20 mi
Aug. 3: 6 mi
--
Aug. 9: ?? I was confused by the last bit in your text about this
Aug. 10:??
--
Aug. 16/17: taper
--
Aug. 23/24: race

So the Aug. 9/10 week should definitely be starting the taper, but probably on the order of at least a half-marathon for the longer of the two runs.

Yeah, training for a 50k involves a lot of miles and a lot of time. You can't just somehow jump up to that kind of time and mileage - you have to build it. That's what you're doing.

Comparing to Dopey only gets you so far, because your marathon on Dopey wasn't as long in either distance or time as you're expecting this 50k to be. And the trails are more difficult than going through DW. You have to put in more training for this. But you are almost there!

Anyway, at this point, I don't think I'd suggest changing anything in your plan. I still feel like the ordering and totals of the July 26/27 and Aug. 2/3 weekends is a bit odd, but there may be some training subtlety that I'm missing. And mentally it sounds like you wouldn't be good with adding anything to the Aug. 2/3 weekend.

Once you get over the hump of the Aug. 2/3 weekend and start to taper, you'll start feeling better because you'll won't be running so much, so you will actually start to recover. And that's the whole idea.

July 19-20: 20mi and then 6mi (Last week)

July 26-27: 35k and then OFF (he does say that this will be tough and make you question life decisions, and that you could run a practice race this week, but I'm definitely not doing that)

Aug 2-3: 20mi?? and then 6-10mi (the *actual* plan calls for 10mi and 6-10mi but that seemed like way too long of a taper)
I should probably not have overthought this, and stick to what was written. I can probably gut out 21mi this weekend. If I have to. But 3 weekends in a row? Uuuuuuuuugh.

Aug 9-10: 16mi and then 10mi

Aug 16-17: 10mi and then 5mi

Aug 23-24: 2mi and then race day

This week will mean around 6 hours (maybe more) on Saturday
Next week will mean either 5-5.5 hours and then another 90min to 2.5 hours
Aug 9-10 will be 4 hours and then 2.5 hours
Aug 16-17 would be 2.5 hours and then 75min

 

[avondale]

July 19-20: 20mi and then 6mi (Last week)

July 26-27: 35k and then OFF (he does say that this will be tough and make you question life decisions, and that you could run a practice race this week, but I'm definitely not doing that)

Aug 2-3: 20mi?? and then 6-10mi (the *actual* plan calls for 10mi and 6-10mi but that seemed like way too long of a taper)
I should probably not have overthought this, and stick to what was written. I can probably gut out 21mi this weekend. If I have to. But 3 weekends in a row? Uuuuuuuuugh.

Aug 9-10: 16mi and then 10mi

Aug 16-17: 10mi and then 5mi

Aug 23-24: 2mi and then race day

This week will mean around 6 hours (maybe more) on Saturday
Next week will mean either 5-5.5 hours and then another 90min to 2.5 hours
Aug 9-10 will be 4 hours and then 2.5 hours
Aug 16-17 would be 2.5 hours and then 75min

Ok, so what I've followed in the past is this for your weekly long runs:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: Your longest long run
• 3 weeks before race weekend: Your longest long run (same length as previous week)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 75% of your longest long run
• 1 week before race weekend: 50% of your longest long run
• race weekend

So, yes, there are kind of two "peak weekends" in terms of the long run, and then you taper. This is based on a few books I've read about training for ultras.

You have been putting a lot of wear on your body (as you've noticed!) so a long but gradual taper is typical.

Your plan has:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: 35k + 0 mi
• 3 weeks before race weekend: 10 mi + 6-10 mi (according to the original plan)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 16 mi + 10 mi
• 1 week before race weekend: 10 mi + 5 mi

This doesn't seem too different. 4 weeks out, you put all the effort into one long run, rather than splitting it over two days, which will make it more difficult. 3 weeks out, you've got a similar mileage (at least 10 + 10 mi), but it's split over 2 days, making it a bit easier. So in a sense, your original plan has the taper starting a teeny bit earlier than in the plan I used, because the long run distance is split over 2 days. But given it's your first 50k and the wear and tear you've been putting on your body, a long taper is fine.

I think it's not unreasonable. Buuut.... once you start tapering, things change their focus from building your endurance to recovering and doing what you need to do to keep your legs "fresh". You won't be getting any more gains during this time. So you shouldn't just stop running after those longest weekends, but if you feel you need to take it easier, I think that's ok. Especially in the week leading up to the race.

For me leading up to my first 50k, I had:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: 6 hour long run (got a little under 25 miles - mist and rain the whole time, possible flash flooding, yay)
• 3 weeks before race weekend: 6 hour long run again (only 2 hours of solid rain at the end, yippee)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 4.5 hour long run
• 1 week before race weekend: 3 hour long run, but I think in practice I cut this to 2 hours because it scared me to run 3 hours the week before such a long race - and I was tired!
• note: for most weeks on my plan, I was running for 90 minutes the day before my long runs, which was 6 - 7 miles. That happened here except 1 week before race weekend. Don't want you to think the back-to-back runs are unique to your plan.

So to summarize:

• I think the original plan of 10 mi + 10 mi for 3 weeks before race weekend is ok - not a too-early taper.
• Yes, things are going to continue to suck for another couple weeks.
• You can do this!

ETA: In the first paragraph when I say "your weekly long run", I mean the generic "you", not you @Herding_Cats specifically. I realized that sounded funny.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Ok, so what I've followed in the past is this for your weekly long runs:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: Your longest long run
• 3 weeks before race weekend: Your longest long run (same length as previous week)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 75% of your longest long run
• 1 week before race weekend: 50% of your longest long run
• race weekend

So, yes, there are kind of two "peak weekends" in terms of the long run, and then you taper. This is based on a few books I've read about training for ultras.

You have been putting a lot of wear on your body (as you've noticed!) so a long but gradual taper is typical.

Your plan has:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: 35k + 0 mi
• 3 weeks before race weekend: 10 mi + 6-10 mi (according to the original plan)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 16 mi + 10 mi
• 1 week before race weekend: 10 mi + 5 mi

This doesn't seem too different. 4 weeks out, you put all the effort into one long run, rather than splitting it over two days, which will make it more difficult. 3 weeks out, you've got a similar mileage (at least 10 + 10 mi), but it's split over 2 days, making it a bit easier. So in a sense, your original plan has the taper starting a teeny bit earlier than in the plan I used, because the long run distance is split over 2 days. But given it's your first 50k and the wear and tear you've been putting on your body, a long taper is fine.

This makes sense now that someone else can see and say it. My brain just wasn't computing, even though I'm used to cumulative fatigue training

I think it's not unreasonable. Buuut.... once you start tapering, things change their focus from building your endurance to recovering and doing what you need to do to keep your legs "fresh". You won't be getting any more gains during this time. So you shouldn't just stop running after those longest weekends, but if you feel you need to take it easier, I think that's ok. Especially in the week leading up to the race.

I feel like I'm not going to be making any more gains (at least none that are going to be significant) regardless of when my taper starts because my body is definitely feeling it at this point. Case and point, I took DD and DS2 to a 5k (with a kids half mile fun run) this morning and then came home and took at 2 hour nap. Because I'm just tired.

So to summarize:

• I think the original plan of 10 mi + 10 mi for 3 weeks before race weekend is ok - not a too-early taper.
• Yes, things are going to continue to suck for another couple weeks.
• You can do this!

ETA: In the first paragraph when I say "your weekly long run", I mean the generic "you", not you @Herding_Cats specifically. I realized that sounded funny.

I've mentally resigned myself to doing the 22mi this weekend (weather/body dependent as it's going to be T+D 135 at 6am and then around 150 by noon with humidity in the 70-80% range) and have tentatively mapped out a route that, while not on a trail, is a series of out-and-backs where I'll never be more than about 5mi from my car so I can have an aid station every 8-10mi, with a bathroom at the center of it.


Also, I looked at my mileage for this month, and if I do *most* of what I'm scheduled to do I'm going to blow away by highest-month-ever total. I'm already at like 86mi for this month and should be at 120 by the end of the weekend. YIKES.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Vest-packing thoughts (because I'm making a checklist of what goes in what pockets, and what goes in the drop bag/refill station

I don't usually have many issues with chafing (aside from apparently my vest/reservoir chafing my sports bra band on my back that I will address with KT Tape) but I'm wanting to have something in my vest should I need it while on-course. Do I go super low-tech with a literal ziploc bag with vaseline in it? Or go specific with the individual packets of the 2toms sport shield? I currently use the sport shield (in a roller) for skin-on-skin chafe-prevention, and bodyglide for skin-to-clothes chafe-prevention (or vaseline...usually on a disney course.) But I don't want to bring the whole roller in my vest.

I'm trying to think about what I learned about the course, and think about what I might need, while keeping in mind that there are plenty of aid stations and not overpacking myself. But having my own anti-chafe seems like it would be a good idea.

Anything else that I'm not considering?

 

[nancipants]

I usually either bring a travel size container of Vaseline or a travel size anti-chafe stick (whatever brand I have available). I’ve seen ultra runners use Vaseline in zip loc baggies and might try it on long runs, but I also worry it could end in disaster, lol. I’ve never brought anything for Disney races since the aid stations are so close together, but do for other races where I’m not sure what they’ll have/if aid stations are further apart. When I did my last long run, I put all my “stuff” in the zipper compartment and “fuel” in the other pockets.

 

[garneska]

Personally I would go with the 2toms wipes. They carry very small and will work very good if you are having issues. I have not found Vaseline helpful but YMMV.

 

[Herding_Cats]

 

[avondale]

View attachment 987461 View attachment 987462

Fantastic job!

 

[Herding_Cats]

I have tomorrow off, so here we go with the week re-cap.

Sunday: 8mi easy with strides 6mi walking. The back half of my b2b weekend long runs, but my legs....they no worky. I tried to jog across the road when a car was coming (it was still like 1/4 mile away) and my legs just laughed at me.

Monday: sweet, sweet rest day. Tired legs, very "post-Dopey" feeling, but otherwise OK.

Tuesday: OK maybe I spoke too soon. 2mi easy + 20min moderate + 4x(30sec fast with 30sec recovery) + 2mi easy Remember when I smashed my leg on a kayak a week and a half ago and got a huge bruise wrapping around my calf? And then fell on Saturday (no visible bruising, but I cannot put 'sitting pressure' on it)? Yeah. So the kayak bruise felt like someone was stabbing my leg off and on all day. And the bruised area is still hard and slightly swollen. And DH looks at it and says "yeah, looks like maybe you've got a bit of a hematoma there." I probably do. So yeah. Rested again.

Wednesday: Hello heatwave! I don't like you. Corn sweat? Sounds gross. And while it didn't get quite as hellaciously hot as predicted, it was still like mid-80s with 75%+ humidity and I said no thanks to that and treadmilled 6 miles. 2mi easy + 1mi at 6% (walking) + 2mi easy + 1mi (ish) at 6% (walking.) I wore my compression calf sleeves because otherwise my bruise is 'heavy' and uncomfortable feeling when I run.

Thursday: 5mi easy 1.68mi on the treadmill. My left hamstring was grabby (not in an injured way, but maybe in a hey we are really tired here! way. And then my left calf/ankle got twingy and started acting like they didn't want to catch me. So I just called it quits. It was also 8:30pm and my motivation was low, but even walking was not going well.

Friday: rest day. I'm shockingly good at NOT missing these. Made a list during the day, and DH put DD to bed while I got all of my stuff together for my long run. I slept out in our camper so that when I got up at 430am I wouldn't be waking up the dogs or DD (she usually crawls into bed with us at some point in the night) AND so I wouldn't worry about waking them up with my alarm and therefore wake up 10 extra times to "beat the alarm." It took me almost an hour to get all of my parts and pieces found, the cooler set up, etc. I was in by by 9:45, which was later than I wanted but DH and I had started watching Happy Gilmore 2 and I watched until we got to a good stopping point.

Saturday: 22mi/35k easy. I had plotted a route on Garmin earlier in the week so I could have around 10mi between the car/aid station to refill things. This worked out well. It was around 64 degrees (with 90% humidity and a dewpoint of 63.) It did start raining about 3 hours into the run...it wasn't supposed to rain according to the forecast, but the sky looked weird so I texted DH and asked him to keep an eye on the radar and let me know if anything flared up over Lake Michigan that would affect me. I paused by the boat launch (and did hill repeats) while waiting to see if the more dense part of the system would go over my location so that I had a shelter available instead of some rich person's covered porch on their vacation house. Fortunately there was no lightning, and it only rained hard for a few minutes (where I simply stepped off the trail and under someone's beachside gazebo tent.) It rained for about 90min of the run, and while it kept the temperature down somewhat, it did NOT help the humidity. I did have some tightness that was bordering on cramping in my left hamstring/glute at around mile 14, so I did more walking than I had planned. I also had the worst swelling I've ever had in my fingers. Not 'sausage fingers' by any stretch, but more like "there are only 3 creases in my knuckles instead of the usual 7+ creases" which I took as a sign to get my pretzels out of my pack and to drink more.

Fuel consumed: 3 nerds gummies, 1 huma raspberry, 3 scoops unflavored tailwind, 16oz of coke, and around 1 serving of pretzels (24g carbs) so I did a bit better than last time, but not by much.

I managed to close my last mile in 13:30 (the tightness had either worked itself out, or the 2nd dose of Tylenol had kicked in. IYKYK.) That was a good boost mentally, especially since I had further dialed down my intervals to 15/30. And then I chugged more coke in the back of my car while I took my shoes/socks/calf sleeves off and then stood in the lake up to my chin for about 10min. The water is still cool so this felt really good. It's probably colder than Lake Michigan.

And now I'm home shoving all of the food into my face hole. Huzzah!

 

[Herding_Cats]

Reasons to not run on the (tiny) shoulder of the road I used today:

You’ve got about 2ft and then it’s the healthiest poison ivy you’ve ever seen.


Just a wee bit smoky from the Canadian wildfires today


Michigan version of a Baobab tree.

 

[avondale]

Vest-packing thoughts (because I'm making a checklist of what goes in what pockets, and what goes in the drop bag/refill station

I don't usually have many issues with chafing (aside from apparently my vest/reservoir chafing my sports bra band on my back that I will address with KT Tape) but I'm wanting to have something in my vest should I need it while on-course. Do I go super low-tech with a literal ziploc bag with vaseline in it? Or go specific with the individual packets of the 2toms sport shield? I currently use the sport shield (in a roller) for skin-on-skin chafe-prevention, and bodyglide for skin-to-clothes chafe-prevention (or vaseline...usually on a disney course.) But I don't want to bring the whole roller in my vest.

I'm trying to think about what I learned about the course, and think about what I might need, while keeping in mind that there are plenty of aid stations and not overpacking myself. But having my own anti-chafe seems like it would be a good idea.

Anything else that I'm not considering?

So....what to bring for the race.

Keep in mind:

• You probably will not be within sight of another person for the last 1/3 to 1/2 of the race, unless you have the pacer you were thinking about. It looks like last year's 50k had < 120 runners in it, so people will be very spaced out toward the end.
• Aid stations are spaced out, and not all aid stations will have medical supplies.
• You'll be running about 50% more in distance and time than your longest training run, which means you'll be very tired (more likely to have an accident) and simply more time out on the trail, which increases the chance of an accident.

If you get injured or ill during the race, you'll have to be able to get yourself to the nearest aid station. Even if you get there, most likely you'll have to get yourself off the course under your own power (escorted by volunteers).

I've seen folks in trail races who tripped and fell (lots of blood/scrapes) or twisted an ankle or knee....and they are limping to the nearest aid station. You need to be prepared to do that for the most likely problems/accidents that will happen.

In the worst case that you become immobile from an injury, then you need to be ready to stay in place until someone gets to you.

I always carry a small emergency first-aid kit on long runs and trail races. I also have a long record of spraining my ankles, so I carry an ace bandage to be able to wrap a sprained ankle immediately. I carry a foil emergency blanket and a small whistle. You should be carrying food/drink, so unless you have the very bad luck of a bad injury happening just when you run out of everything, you probably will be ok on that front.

The race organizers should be responsible enough to make sure that they know all racers who started have also finished and that if there's anyone missing to track them down, but that means it could be a wait if you're injured and stuck somewhere. Of course, you would tell anyone who passed by about your situation, but there may not be many who pass by. You may also not have cell signal.


Stuff that's not likely to happen, but you need to think about it when you're thinking about equipment.