Every Wish That We Put Into Motion.... (comments welcome!)

[avondale]

Because let's be honest: David Roche's "beginners trail 50k training plan" was not written with someone who is planning go sub 15min/mi on race day at the forefront.

Yes, it's really hard to know who a plan's target audience really is. One person's "beginner" is very different from another person's.

This week has my running 35k (almost 22mi) on Saturday and having Sunday off (I usually am scheduled to run 6+mi on Sundays) and then the following week (which I had written differently from the online plan) as my peak week we had previously discussed me going 20+ on Saturday and then 6-10mi on Sunday instead of the published 10 and then 6-10 (weather/heat permitting.)

To summarize:
July 26: 22 mi
July 27: off
--
Aug. 2: 20 mi
Aug. 3: 6 mi
--
Aug. 9: ?? I was confused by the last bit in your text about this
Aug. 10:??
--
Aug. 16/17: taper
--
Aug. 23/24: race

So the Aug. 9/10 week should definitely be starting the taper, but probably on the order of at least a half-marathon for the longer of the two runs.

Yeah, training for a 50k involves a lot of miles and a lot of time. You can't just somehow jump up to that kind of time and mileage - you have to build it. That's what you're doing.

Comparing to Dopey only gets you so far, because your marathon on Dopey wasn't as long in either distance or time as you're expecting this 50k to be. And the trails are more difficult than going through DW. You have to put in more training for this. But you are almost there!

Anyway, at this point, I don't think I'd suggest changing anything in your plan. I still feel like the ordering and totals of the July 26/27 and Aug. 2/3 weekends is a bit odd, but there may be some training subtlety that I'm missing. And mentally it sounds like you wouldn't be good with adding anything to the Aug. 2/3 weekend.

Once you get over the hump of the Aug. 2/3 weekend and start to taper, you'll start feeling better because you'll won't be running so much, so you will actually start to recover. And that's the whole idea.

I'd be lying if I said things went great mentally. It was really up and down in parts...literally mile-to-mile would be a change just past mile 14 where I would feel great, and then feel horrible. But even though I wasn't thrilled to do this run on my own, it was probably a really good thing for me. I also firmly believe that having multiple nights of poor/less-than usual sleep messed with this as well.

This was also good prep for your race. Your emotions will be all over the place, and you already know you're going to have a tough time getting sleep before the race. I guess take this as emphasizing to you how much you need to focus on the importance of sleep in the 7 - 10 days before the race, since you won't necessarily get a lot of sleep the night or two before.

it's about a 5.7% grade, so it's not terribly steep

That's a pretty respectable grade. I'd be walking that for sure, especially with that distance. Practicing the power-walking on the treadmill will help.


You are in the homestretch, so don't give up on the training now!

 

[Herding_Cats]

Yes, it's really hard to know who a plan's target audience really is. One person's "beginner" is very different from another person's.

To summarize:
July 26: 22 mi
July 27: off
--
Aug. 2: 20 mi
Aug. 3: 6 mi
--
Aug. 9: ?? I was confused by the last bit in your text about this
Aug. 10:??
--
Aug. 16/17: taper
--
Aug. 23/24: race

So the Aug. 9/10 week should definitely be starting the taper, but probably on the order of at least a half-marathon for the longer of the two runs.

Yeah, training for a 50k involves a lot of miles and a lot of time. You can't just somehow jump up to that kind of time and mileage - you have to build it. That's what you're doing.

Comparing to Dopey only gets you so far, because your marathon on Dopey wasn't as long in either distance or time as you're expecting this 50k to be. And the trails are more difficult than going through DW. You have to put in more training for this. But you are almost there!

Anyway, at this point, I don't think I'd suggest changing anything in your plan. I still feel like the ordering and totals of the July 26/27 and Aug. 2/3 weekends is a bit odd, but there may be some training subtlety that I'm missing. And mentally it sounds like you wouldn't be good with adding anything to the Aug. 2/3 weekend.

Once you get over the hump of the Aug. 2/3 weekend and start to taper, you'll start feeling better because you'll won't be running so much, so you will actually start to recover. And that's the whole idea.

July 19-20: 20mi and then 6mi (Last week)

July 26-27: 35k and then OFF (he does say that this will be tough and make you question life decisions, and that you could run a practice race this week, but I'm definitely not doing that)

Aug 2-3: 20mi?? and then 6-10mi (the *actual* plan calls for 10mi and 6-10mi but that seemed like way too long of a taper)
I should probably not have overthought this, and stick to what was written. I can probably gut out 21mi this weekend. If I have to. But 3 weekends in a row? Uuuuuuuuugh.

Aug 9-10: 16mi and then 10mi

Aug 16-17: 10mi and then 5mi

Aug 23-24: 2mi and then race day

This week will mean around 6 hours (maybe more) on Saturday
Next week will mean either 5-5.5 hours and then another 90min to 2.5 hours
Aug 9-10 will be 4 hours and then 2.5 hours
Aug 16-17 would be 2.5 hours and then 75min

 

[avondale]

July 19-20: 20mi and then 6mi (Last week)

July 26-27: 35k and then OFF (he does say that this will be tough and make you question life decisions, and that you could run a practice race this week, but I'm definitely not doing that)

Aug 2-3: 20mi?? and then 6-10mi (the *actual* plan calls for 10mi and 6-10mi but that seemed like way too long of a taper)
I should probably not have overthought this, and stick to what was written. I can probably gut out 21mi this weekend. If I have to. But 3 weekends in a row? Uuuuuuuuugh.

Aug 9-10: 16mi and then 10mi

Aug 16-17: 10mi and then 5mi

Aug 23-24: 2mi and then race day

This week will mean around 6 hours (maybe more) on Saturday
Next week will mean either 5-5.5 hours and then another 90min to 2.5 hours
Aug 9-10 will be 4 hours and then 2.5 hours
Aug 16-17 would be 2.5 hours and then 75min

Ok, so what I've followed in the past is this for your weekly long runs:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: Your longest long run
• 3 weeks before race weekend: Your longest long run (same length as previous week)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 75% of your longest long run
• 1 week before race weekend: 50% of your longest long run
• race weekend

So, yes, there are kind of two "peak weekends" in terms of the long run, and then you taper. This is based on a few books I've read about training for ultras.

You have been putting a lot of wear on your body (as you've noticed!) so a long but gradual taper is typical.

Your plan has:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: 35k + 0 mi
• 3 weeks before race weekend: 10 mi + 6-10 mi (according to the original plan)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 16 mi + 10 mi
• 1 week before race weekend: 10 mi + 5 mi

This doesn't seem too different. 4 weeks out, you put all the effort into one long run, rather than splitting it over two days, which will make it more difficult. 3 weeks out, you've got a similar mileage (at least 10 + 10 mi), but it's split over 2 days, making it a bit easier. So in a sense, your original plan has the taper starting a teeny bit earlier than in the plan I used, because the long run distance is split over 2 days. But given it's your first 50k and the wear and tear you've been putting on your body, a long taper is fine.

I think it's not unreasonable. Buuut.... once you start tapering, things change their focus from building your endurance to recovering and doing what you need to do to keep your legs "fresh". You won't be getting any more gains during this time. So you shouldn't just stop running after those longest weekends, but if you feel you need to take it easier, I think that's ok. Especially in the week leading up to the race.

For me leading up to my first 50k, I had:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: 6 hour long run (got a little under 25 miles - mist and rain the whole time, possible flash flooding, yay)
• 3 weeks before race weekend: 6 hour long run again (only 2 hours of solid rain at the end, yippee)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 4.5 hour long run
• 1 week before race weekend: 3 hour long run, but I think in practice I cut this to 2 hours because it scared me to run 3 hours the week before such a long race - and I was tired!
• note: for most weeks on my plan, I was running for 90 minutes the day before my long runs, which was 6 - 7 miles. That happened here except 1 week before race weekend. Don't want you to think the back-to-back runs are unique to your plan.

So to summarize:

• I think the original plan of 10 mi + 10 mi for 3 weeks before race weekend is ok - not a too-early taper.
• Yes, things are going to continue to suck for another couple weeks.
• You can do this!

ETA: In the first paragraph when I say "your weekly long run", I mean the generic "you", not you @Herding_Cats specifically. I realized that sounded funny.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Ok, so what I've followed in the past is this for your weekly long runs:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: Your longest long run
• 3 weeks before race weekend: Your longest long run (same length as previous week)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 75% of your longest long run
• 1 week before race weekend: 50% of your longest long run
• race weekend

So, yes, there are kind of two "peak weekends" in terms of the long run, and then you taper. This is based on a few books I've read about training for ultras.

You have been putting a lot of wear on your body (as you've noticed!) so a long but gradual taper is typical.

Your plan has:

• 4 weeks before race weekend: 35k + 0 mi
• 3 weeks before race weekend: 10 mi + 6-10 mi (according to the original plan)
• 2 weeks before race weekend: 16 mi + 10 mi
• 1 week before race weekend: 10 mi + 5 mi

This doesn't seem too different. 4 weeks out, you put all the effort into one long run, rather than splitting it over two days, which will make it more difficult. 3 weeks out, you've got a similar mileage (at least 10 + 10 mi), but it's split over 2 days, making it a bit easier. So in a sense, your original plan has the taper starting a teeny bit earlier than in the plan I used, because the long run distance is split over 2 days. But given it's your first 50k and the wear and tear you've been putting on your body, a long taper is fine.

This makes sense now that someone else can see and say it. My brain just wasn't computing, even though I'm used to cumulative fatigue training

I think it's not unreasonable. Buuut.... once you start tapering, things change their focus from building your endurance to recovering and doing what you need to do to keep your legs "fresh". You won't be getting any more gains during this time. So you shouldn't just stop running after those longest weekends, but if you feel you need to take it easier, I think that's ok. Especially in the week leading up to the race.

I feel like I'm not going to be making any more gains (at least none that are going to be significant) regardless of when my taper starts because my body is definitely feeling it at this point. Case and point, I took DD and DS2 to a 5k (with a kids half mile fun run) this morning and then came home and took at 2 hour nap. Because I'm just tired.

So to summarize:

• I think the original plan of 10 mi + 10 mi for 3 weeks before race weekend is ok - not a too-early taper.
• Yes, things are going to continue to suck for another couple weeks.
• You can do this!

ETA: In the first paragraph when I say "your weekly long run", I mean the generic "you", not you @Herding_Cats specifically. I realized that sounded funny.

I've mentally resigned myself to doing the 22mi this weekend (weather/body dependent as it's going to be T+D 135 at 6am and then around 150 by noon with humidity in the 70-80% range) and have tentatively mapped out a route that, while not on a trail, is a series of out-and-backs where I'll never be more than about 5mi from my car so I can have an aid station every 8-10mi, with a bathroom at the center of it.


Also, I looked at my mileage for this month, and if I do *most* of what I'm scheduled to do I'm going to blow away by highest-month-ever total. I'm already at like 86mi for this month and should be at 120 by the end of the weekend. YIKES.