Every Wish That We Put Into Motion.... (comments welcome!)

[Herding_Cats]

Congrats on successfully moving your son into college. I am in the minority of parents who were totally okay when their kids went off to school. DD went first, but she had been going away from home on her own since she was 7 (GS camp, music camp, etc). She went east coast, DS went west coast.

Some beautiful scenery in the UP. Will have to do a trip up there again at some point.

I held it together well. I haven’t really cried about him being gone, which doesn’t really surprise me. Now if I were PMS’ing it would have been a different deal. But it’s a little surprising how many people have felt the need to “check” on me since Sunday.

 

[DopeyBadger]

He has what we think is a big mental problem in races because he goes out and crushes his workouts at practice and those times/paces indicate that he could be running a full minute faster than he is (like he "should" be running low 17s and not low/mid 18s.) But for whatever reason that's not happening.

Does he run with a watch, and let the pace get to him? Try letting go and running blind by effort?

Or is it a competitive thing that gets in his head when other people pass him? Maybe play the hunter instead of the hunted?

 

[Herding_Cats]

Does he run with a watch, and let the pace get to him? Try letting go and running blind by effort?

He does run with his watch. We have discussed him turning it to the inside of his wrist or not wearing it at all for a race, but I'm not sure that's happened.

Or is it a competitive thing that gets in his head when other people pass him? Maybe play the hunter instead of the hunted?

He's normally a super competitive kid, but for whatever reason, he is struggling with XC. He doesn't have the same swagger he did when he was in 9th grade (coming off a good 8th grade season where he was in the top-10 all-time for MS at our school.) We've talked about just "latching on" to someone else in the race that we know what kinds of times they run and not thinking about pace at all and just running with them. And he has either NOT done this, or just blown up spectacularly. But when you look at his race splits, mile one is usually mid 5s, and then mile 2 is 45-60sec slower, and then mile 3 is even slower. And he's in better shape than that fade indicates when you look at his workouts. He's 1 meet away from me talking to his coaches because if he can't get stuff figured out, indoor/winter track might be in jeopardy, spring track might be a "whatever," and snowball into "I'm just here to hang out with my friends" his senior season. And he won't be a happy kid if that happens because, again, he's really competitive.

He ran just a couple seconds over 5:00 in track for the mile. Humphrey's says that at 5k equivalent is 16:44.
He ran a 2mi time trial at team camp in 11:20 (and he runs like garbage when he doesn't get enough sleep) which the equivalent for that is 18:04. So theoretically he should be somewhere in the middle of that? Mid-17s? So far this year he's run 18:23 on a flat course, and 20:15 on a hilly course that the GAP doesn't indicate that big of a slow-down.

 

[DopeyBadger]

He's normally a super competitive kid, but for whatever reason, he is struggling with XC. He doesn't have the same swagger he did when he was in 9th grade (coming off a good 8th grade season where he was in the top-10 all-time for MS at our school.) We've talked about just "latching on" to someone else in the race that we know what kinds of times they run and not thinking about pace at all and just running with them. And he has either NOT done this, or just blown up spectacularly. But when you look at his race splits, mile one is usually mid 5s, and then mile 2 is 45-60sec slower, and then mile 3 is even slower. And he's in better shape than that fade indicates when you look at his workouts. He's 1 meet away from me talking to his coaches because if he can't get stuff figured out, indoor/winter track might be in jeopardy, spring track might be a "whatever," and snowball into "I'm just here to hang out with my friends" his senior season. And he won't be a happy kid if that happens because, again, he's really competitive.

He ran just a couple seconds over 5:00 in track for the mile. Humphrey's says that at 5k equivalent is 16:44.
He ran a 2mi time trial at team camp in 11:20 (and he runs like garbage when he doesn't get enough sleep) which the equivalent for that is 18:04. So theoretically he should be somewhere in the middle of that? Mid-17s? So far this year he's run 18:23 on a flat course, and 20:15 on a hilly course that the GAP doesn't indicate that big of a slow-down.

Definitely sounds like he's in his own head. A lot of expectations potentially placed on himself based on what he's done previous (MS times) and what he theoretically should be able to do (track/time trial). It sounds an awful lot like it's the atmosphere around the race. Like he has expectations for his splits, and then when they don't happen he caves. If that's the case, breaking free from the watch is what did it for me. Just ignoring the splits and just run. Because if you're going to have a big slow down when you're looking, then what do you have to lose if you're not. My advice, take his watch away from him for his next race. Then tell him to let a few known runners get a small lead on him. Then become Pac-Man or a predator and chase them down. Sometimes it's more fun to be the hunter and you can force that feeling if you intentionally let others get away from you. Find the game within the game.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Definitely sounds like he's in his own head. A lot of expectations potentially placed on himself based on what he's done previous (MS times) and what he theoretically should be able to do (track/time trial). It sounds an awful lot like it's the atmosphere around the race. Like he has expectations for his splits, and then when they don't happen he caves. If that's the case, breaking free from the watch is what did it for me. Just ignoring the splits and just run. Because if you're going to have a big slow down when you're looking, then what do you have to lose if you're not. My advice, take his watch away from him for his next race. Then tell him to let a few known runners get a small lead on him. Then become Pac-Man or a predator and chase them down. Sometimes it's more fun to be the hunter and you can force that feeling if you intentionally let others get away from you. Find the game within the game.

Yeah. It being a mental problem has been the general consensus between myself and DH. The kid is a bit of a perfectionist, and he's putting in more work/miles than anyone else on the team, and is finishing like 6th (non-scoring) for the team. I also think (and he agreed) that he has this thing where he's terrified of putting in all of this work and not hitting his goals (17s this season) and having all of this effort be "wasted." And from the outside we know it's not wasted, but from his perspective, why should he be putting in all of this extra work when he can do significantly less work, and probably still run the same mediocre (for out team) times. I totally understand that running an 18min 5k is fast. But it's not fast for a HS XC team. And especially for our school's team.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Yeah. It being a mental problem has been the general consensus between myself and DH. The kid is a bit of a perfectionist, and he's putting in more work/miles than anyone else on the team, and is finishing like 6th (non-scoring) for the team. I also think (and he agreed) that he has this thing where he's terrified of putting in all of this work and not hitting his goals (17s this season) and having all of this effort be "wasted." And from the outside we know it's not wasted, but from his perspective, why should he be putting in all of this extra work when he can do significantly less work, and probably still run the same mediocre (for out team) times. I totally understand that running an 18min 5k is fast. But it's not fast for a HS XC team. And especially for our school's team.

I get all of this. I've lived everything he's thinking and going through in my adult life running journey. So I totally can relate to it. It's all about answering the question, "Why?" "Why am I doing this?" Only he can find the answer.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Idea - Is he motivated by money? Maybe make a game out of it. So far his best time this year has been a 18:30 (5:57 pace). So tell him that if he hits the first mile at 6:00 min/mile or slower, you'll give him $X. Then for every runner he's able to pass, you'll pay him an escalating $Y. But he'll have to count each person he passes and then give an honest number. For example, $10 for hitting a pace slower than 6:00 for the first mile, and then every runner after is worth $0.25+. So pass runner 1 and you get 10.25. Pass runner 2 and you'll get 10.75 (10+0.25+0.5). Pass runner 3 and you'll get 11.50 (10+0.25+0.5+0.75). Set the numbers at whatever is appropriate for the calculation.

The goal is to have him start slow (setting the pace below his expectations for himself), and then having him be the hunter and count people as he passes them. The goal in the last 2/3 of the race isn't a pace goal. Rather it's to catch people and count them. The goal is to take his mind off his pace which has been demotivating and instead motivate him towards a different goal instead. Trying to tap into the Psychobiological Model of Endurance.

I used this once on a runner struggling with motivation. They were motivated by margaritas though. And so we developed a motivating margaritas plan.

 

[The Expert]

And so we developed a motivating margaritas plan.

Gonna need some details on this plan!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Gonna need some details on this plan!

I offered to pay someone in margaritas for how well they could stick to their training plan (don't remember the details to well at this point) in an effort to find a motivation for them that would help them hit their goals.

 

[DisneyParrothead]

Yeah. It being a mental problem has been the general consensus between myself and DH. The kid is a bit of a perfectionist, and he's putting in more work/miles than anyone else on the team, and is finishing like 6th (non-scoring) for the team. I also think (and he agreed) that he has this thing where he's terrified of putting in all of this work and not hitting his goals (17s this season) and having all of this effort be "wasted." And from the outside we know it's not wasted, but from his perspective, why should he be putting in all of this extra work when he can do significantly less work, and probably still run the same mediocre (for out team) times. I totally understand that running an 18min 5k is fast. But it's not fast for a HS XC team. And especially for our school's team.

I think we've all been there. I don't know where I came up with this goal, but I wanted to do a sub 60-minute 10K, and I got in my head on race day. I put in so much work, and then traveling to the race wasn't great because I had to get out of Denver a day early due to an ice storm hitting the day I was going to fly out. Then I got put in the wrong (in my opinion) corral, and I let everything I couldn't control get in my head. I was so obsessed with hitting that time goal and I didn't have any fun at all.

It is important to re-assess what we want. I had a come to Jesus meeting with myself about what I wanted out of running, and ultimately I put that goal on the back burner - I don't even think that burner is on - and I'm focusing on other things. Maybe if he switches his goals and works on smaller things he can hit? Instead of a time goal, what about strategy?

 

[nancipants]

Gonna need some details on this plan!

When you hit mile 25 of the Disney Marathon you get to buy a margarita.

 

[Herding_Cats]

When you hit mile 25 of the Disney Marathon you get to buy a margarita.

I'm finally gonna do it this coming weekend! I've always been nervous about it because I'm a lightweight when it comes to alcohol, and my stomach is going to be e.m.p.t.y. at that point. And I'll be thirsty. Will I end up weaving my way to the finish line? Will I finish, and then fall asleep in the parking lot after grabbing my bag from gearcheck? Will I be fine? Guess we're gonna find out!

 

[Herding_Cats]

Idea - Is he motivated by money? Maybe make a game out of it. So far his best time this year has been a 18:30 (5:57 pace). So tell him that if he hits the first mile at 6:00 min/mile or slower, you'll give him $X. Then for every runner he's able to pass, you'll pay him an escalating $Y. But he'll have to count each person he passes and then give an honest number. For example, $10 for hitting a pace slower than 6:00 for the first mile, and then every runner after is worth $0.25+. So pass runner 1 and you get 10.25. Pass runner 2 and you'll get 10.75 (10+0.25+0.5). Pass runner 3 and you'll get 11.50 (10+0.25+0.5+0.75). Set the numbers at whatever is appropriate for the calculation.

The goal is to have him start slow (setting the pace below his expectations for himself), and then having him be the hunter and count people as he passes them. The goal in the last 2/3 of the race isn't a pace goal. Rather it's to catch people and count them. The goal is to take his mind off his pace which has been demotivating and instead motivate him towards a different goal instead. Trying to tap into the Psychobiological Model of Endurance.

I used this once on a runner struggling with motivation. They were motivated by margaritas though. And so we developed a motivating margaritas plan.

That's an idea. I'm not sure I'm willing to part with enough cash to sufficiently motivate him. I'll run it by him and see what he thinks about trying it at our (smaller) conference meet on Tuesday next week and not the enormous invitational at MI State Univ next Friday. But maybe he can think of something. The Tuesday course somehow ends up being mysteriously short every year (it was so short last year for one of that school's invite that literally every single runner except 4 or 5 PR'ed) so there's also the possibility of getting the "just get sub-18" monkey off his back with that. And then there's always the possibility of it going the opposite and it being the correct length, and him running like trash

I think we've all been there. I don't know where I came up with this goal, but I wanted to do a sub 60-minute 10K, and I got in my head on race day. I put in so much work, and then traveling to the race wasn't great because I had to get out of Denver a day early due to an ice storm hitting the day I was going to fly out. Then I got put in the wrong (in my opinion) corral, and I let everything I couldn't control get in my head. I was so obsessed with hitting that time goal and I didn't have any fun at all.

It is important to re-assess what we want. I had a come to Jesus meeting with myself about what I wanted out of running, and ultimately I put that goal on the back burner - I don't even think that burner is on - and I'm focusing on other things. Maybe if he switches his goals and works on smaller things he can hit? Instead of a time goal, what about strategy?

Yeah he's definitely struggling with some of his why. He was even talking about running in college until about mid-season this spring when his track times weren't dropping like he was hoping they would. It's tough. We have really good coaches, but they've had one of their own kids on the team every season (one just graduated is running for MSU, and then the youngest is a freshman this year and will break all of her sister's records) which I feel like makes things a little tougher on everyone. We're talking like coach of the year multiple years, national coach of the year nominee, etc. But I'm just sitting here like 'why is this a problem that we aren't getting serious about solving, instead of just sitting back and letting him try to figure it out for himself?' Because here we are with year 3 and it's the same struggle. There have been no "try this strategy" talks, no "you're not allowed to race with your watch," and no "you are going to run with ____ teammate" things.

There are only so many times you can tell your runners "you're looking strong," "big things are coming," "you crushed that workout," and so on before it just becomes meaningless coach-speak.

 

[The Expert]

When you hit mile 25 of the Disney Marathon you get to buy a margarita.

I'm finally gonna do it this coming weekend!

I am in! This is the way.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Welp. I was all "I'm going to with NOT costume, or more bounding-type stuff for the marathon this time." And then I saw the Dopey skirt enchanted athletics is doing. That green one with the "jewels" on the mesh overlay is suuuuper cute. And now I have a decision to make. I can still easily incorporate an "I'm celebrating!" or "It's my birthday!" button into this, but do I want to run another marathon in a tutu? Apparently the answer to that is yes.

EDIT: she says you shouldn't run in this skirt on the description. Booooooooo.

Side note for anyone running she also has a GORGEOUS snow white skirt that's going to be available tonight.

 

[Naomeri]

EDIT: she says you shouldn't run in this skirt on the description. Booooooooo

What’s even the point then?

 

[Herding_Cats]

What’s even the point then?

Probably expo-wear, park-wear, medal pics, etc. And it would be really cute for that. But for real. I'm not spending $110 on a skirt if I have to baby it.

Somehow I missed the pre-order for a bunch of sparkle athletic skirts, and I totally would have pre-ordered the last one. So now I'm on an email waitlist. I guess it wasn't a pre-order (only the cheese and goofy-themed ones were) but there has been 0 talk about the other skirts on their socials. The last one would work for just about any race, but is also "themed" to MW with the pennants and colors. So I'm probably going to be grabbing that one in October.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Hey! Wanna make a bad decision with me?
Team Bad-Decision!

I registered for the 50k today. @michigandergirl

"It's just a 50k!" -- @camaker




Worked concessions for the XC team at the football game this morning and joking told one of the dads there (who also runs) that he should make a bad decision with me and do the 50k next fall. He and his wife left a few hours before I did, but then he messaged me a few hours later with a screen shot of his registration confirmation page. Peer pressure dictates that I must "stop dreaming and start doing!" Looks like I have just under a year to train. @DopeyBadger may have been mentioned in discussions of training plans and methods.

 

[DopeyBadger]

 

[michigandergirl]

I registered for the 50k today. @michigandergirl

OMG, I'm so excited and nervous for you! I just can't commit yet. I am leaning towards not signing up. I don't think I'll have much time to train for any race, let alone a 50K. Next year we have a lot of travel planned with my son playing college baseball now, and we are also considering a big trip to China in June/July, so maybe it's not the best timing for me.