Ending a marriage (long overdue update #55)

[Scurvy]

As for those who continue to tell me I'm projecting my personal experience on this matter, isn't that what you are all doing, using your own experiences to give advice? I'll never understand why my advice, from someone who is in a similar situation, should be brushed aside for those who have never experienced this type of relationship. What better qualifies those of you who are happily married and have great communication with your spouses?

Anyway, as I've said before, it's not about me, and it's not about you, it's about OP and what she wants and needs. Whatever it is, I hope she finds it. If she doesn't then I pray she has the strength to follow through on her divorce. And, for the record, I would be thrilled for OP if it all worked the way she wants.

I freely admit that I am basing the advice I give the OP on my own experience - it's the only thing I have to base it on. I don't think there's anything wrong with you also basing your advice on your own experience. I've admitted that my relationship had communication problems for a while. Just because we are happy now and have great communication doesn't mean that was always the case. I feel as though you think that no marriage with communication issues can ever be fixed because yours wasn't able to be improved. I know that some can because mine was able to be improved. Mine wasn't at the point where the OP's is- but if we hadn't worked out our communication issues when we did, it might well have gotten to that point. I don't know if the OP's can be repaired or not, but I know that it is possible for some marriages.

As for why I think my advice is better than yours. . . I don't, necessarily. Neither of us can know whose situation the OP's marriage would be most like. But if she follows your advice and walks away now, she guarantees that the marriage will be over. If she follows my advice and gets her husband to go to counseling, there is a chance that they could end up happy. And there is also a chance that things won't end up improving and she'll still walk away later. I don't see what she has to lose, except time. And of course she'll have the somewhat uncomfortable feeling of trying to communicate when that's not something in her comfort zone. The only question is if the chance of fixing things is worth that added investment of time and temporary discomfort. For me, it would be. For you, it wouldn't. For her. . . only she can decide.

 

[Wishing on a star]

OP, I am SOOOO sorry!!!!!

I can see how you were tempted to make that one last post, but WALK AWAY.... You do NOT deserve the inappropriate and judgemental posts here in this thread...

Folks, THE HORSE IS DEAD.
The horse is WAY beyond dead.

It doesn't matter if we, as DISers personally understand one little tiny bit...
It doesn't matter what our personal experiences have been.
We are not walking in the OP's shoes.
It is very obvious that there are some issues here (especially emotional/communication deficits on the husband's part) that nobody understands. There may be nice little diagnosis acronyms, but that doesn't even mean that the so called 'experts' understand'.

OP, The horse is dead...
You do not deserve this...
In fact, I think it may be a good time for you to look into some counseling for yourself to see why you have accepted/enabled, even seeked out, this kind of relationship.

It crosses my mind that coming back to this thread, to these unfeeling judgemental posters, is similar to going back to your unfeeling judgemental husband, yet one more time, trying to seek some acceptance - love- validation....

JUST DON'T DO IT..... You do not need a bunch of negative, unqualified, judgemental nay-sayers to tell you to 'do more'. It might be a good idea to find out why you have gone so far and done so much for this long.

I wish you happiness!!!!!!

 

[PrincessKsMom]

I freely admit that I am basing the advice I give the OP on my own experience - it's the only thing I have to base it on. I don't think there's anything wrong with you also basing your advice on your own experience. I've admitted that my relationship had communication problems for a while. Just because we are happy now and have great communication doesn't mean that was always the case. I feel as though you think that no marriage with communication issues can ever be fixed because yours wasn't able to be improved. I know that some can because mine was able to be improved. Mine wasn't at the point where the OP's is- but if we hadn't worked out our communication issues when we did, it might well have gotten to that point. I don't know if the OP's can be repaired or not, but I know that it is possible for some marriages.

As for why I think my advice is better than yours. . . I don't, necessarily. Neither of us can know whose situation the OP's marriage would be most like. But if she follows your advice and walks away now, she guarantees that the marriage will be over. If she follows my advice and gets her husband to go to counseling, there is a chance that they could end up happy. And there is also a chance that things won't end up improving and she'll still walk away later. I don't see what she has to lose, except time. And of course she'll have the somewhat uncomfortable feeling of trying to communicate when that's not something in her comfort zone. The only question is if the chance of fixing things is worth that added investment of time and temporary discomfort. For me, it would be. For you, it wouldn't. For her. . . only she can decide.

Thanks Scurvy (sounds funny saying that). Anyway, I think you are much more middle of the road than some of the other posters on here and I believe we are much more in agreement than disagreement. You're right -- it couldn't hurt to try. I just think after 14 years, you give up wanting to try, and sometimes even caring to try. But I guess that doesn't apply to OP, since she has stated that she will try again. It just pains me to see someone repeatedly rebuked and ignored. Thanks for taking the time to explain your opinion to me. It is truly appreciated.

 

[lovemygoofy]

OP, I truly hope you get what you want.

As for those who continue to tell me I'm projecting my personal experience on this matter, isn't that what you are all doing, using your own experiences to give advice? I'll never understand why my advice, from someone who is in a similar situation, should be brushed aside for those who have never experienced this type of relationship. What better qualifies those of you who are happily married and have great communication with your spouses?

Anyway, as I've said before, it's not about me, and it's not about you, it's about OP and what she wants and needs. Whatever it is, I hope she finds it. If she doesn't then I pray she has the strength to follow through on her divorce. And, for the record, I would be thrilled for OP if it all worked the way she wants.

First,OP and others in the same situation let me tell you that I'm so sorry if you are in this. I hope that from reading through this that it can inspire you to make some changes that can benefit both your marriage and yourself personally. I don't know how those in this situation are feeling but as I am interepting the OP as being very very hurt and tired.

I hate when these spouse wars happen. Yes, most people assume that what has worked for them will work for someone else and will try to help. I don't think people are trying to discard what others are saying or that the OP isn't trying.

I don't feel like I'm qualified more so than anyone else. I don't think anyone else that has contributed has either. I think those that has tried to help are trying to tell the OP that they have had to work at communicating to make a happy marriage also. Yes, I know some people have happy go luck marriages from the get go and alot like myself have had to work at it. It doesn't come easily or naturally but we still chug along.

Personally, my opinion about the OP's situation, is that she has waited 14 years too long for an overnight change. She should have started pointing out what she needed and wanted 14 years ago. I know that when I first with my husband I would expect him to know I wanted a date night or a romantic card or whatever. He point blank told me that he isn't a mind reader and unless I tell him my expectations he can't meet them but only fail and hurt us both.

The flip of this is that I'm the noncommunicator. I hate confrontation and I don't like to talk about emotions. It took me along time to come out and verbalize the "I love you" to my husband. When we are disagreeing or whatever, I shut down and analyze over and over until I can find a way to speak about my thoughts.

I think that someone expecting a turnaround over night will be disappointed. Instead of a running a marathon to save the marriage, it needs to be babysteps on both ends. I don't believe one party is more wrong than the other but I think both need to be taking steps towards the middle.

If the OP wanted a date night with her husband, she could have planned it. Honestly date night is difficult sometimes. Should it be super romantic with a fancy dinner out or a moonlit walk on the bank with some flowers or a casual burger and movie? Though I understand the NEED for some demonstration from her husband, effort has to be put forth also to mend what is broken.

I think that instead of waiting for her husband to plan when the counseling will happen which is another line in the sand, just schedule the appointments and tell her husband what her expectations are and the results if they are not met. It's time for verbalization and not note writing. People cannot meet or fail expectations if they aren't verbalized. I don't think any of us can read minds to know what the other wants.

 

[Scurvy]

OP, I am SOOOO sorry!!!!!

I can see how you were tempted to make that one last post, but WALK AWAY.... You do NOT deserve the inappropriate and judgemental posts here in this thread...

Folks, THE HORSE IS DEAD.
The horse is WAY beyond dead.

It doesn't matter if you personally understand one little tiny bit...
It is very obvious that there are some issues here (especially emotional/communication deficits on the husband's part) that nobody understands. There may be nice little diagnosis acronyms, but that doesn't even mean that the so called 'experts' understand'.

OP, The horse is dead...
You do not deserve this...
In fact, I think it may be a good time for you to look into some counseling for yourself to see why you have accepted/enabled, even seeked out, this kind of relationship.

You don't need a bunch of negative, unqualified, judgemental nay-sayers to tell you to 'do more'. It might be a good idea to find out why you have gone so far and done so much for this long.

I wish you happiness!!!!!!

Wishing, you seem really personally invested in this thread. The OP came back and asked a question of those who have suggested she continue to try, which some of us have answered. I don't know why you think you know better than she does when the thread ought to be over.

I don't know why you are so opposed to her trying to save her marriage - but I hope she will take all this posts on this thread and filter through them and decide if there's anything helpful about them. She is an adult who I assume is perfectly capable of deciding how to live her life without someone else running interference for her online. If she decides she is done with her marriage, I'm sure no posts on this thread will change that. But if she's as conflicted as she sounds, maybe some of our experiences will help her to find a way to improve her marriage. Ultimately it's up to her and she has to decide what she wants most.

 

[Wishing on a star]

That is a very nice post Lovemygoofy!

However, to say that the OP has to 'PLAN' a supper out... and to accuse her of expecting her husband to be a 'mind-reader', just so they can have supper together?

Sorry, i'm just not seeing it that way.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Scurvy, I can see what you are saying... I really can.

But, I do not see the OP as conflicted.

The Title of this thread is 'Ending a Marriage'.

Just because she had a momentary lapse (panic attack) and second guessed herself, due to some unrealistic and judgmental posts on this thread, does not make her 'conflicted'.

What happened when she took all this well meaning advice from those who think that a 'conversation' or a 'date night' will erase some very deep issues and save a marriage..... She was just disappointed and reaffirmed of her husbands complete inability to respond.

And, I have NEVER, not once, indicated that she should end her marriage... (she pretty much did that herself, beginning with the title to this thread) I have only said that she should ignore well meaning (and sometimes very judgemental) advice and do what she knows is right.

 

[Scurvy]

Wishing, I think this is one of those things that we'll just have to agree to disagree about. We read the same posts, but clearly we interpret them differently. What you see as a moment of panic, I see as a moment of realization. Posts that you see as "flaming" or "judgemental" I see as people trying to help and offer their differing opinions. (For the most part - I agree that a few posts were a bit harsh.) Even her first post seemed conflicted to me, but of course you could be right that she wasn't at all unsure of whether she wanted to end the marriage.

Only the OP knows if she would be happier ending the marriage to try to find the "right" relationship or if she'd rather try to turn her marriage into the "right" relationship. (Which may or may not be possible - no one on here can possibly know if even counseling will give her the relationship she wants.) But that's the good thing about a board like this - she can get lots of different points of view and see what others think they would do in her situation or what some of us have done in similar situations. She can use or discard that information as she sees fit. I'm sure that if or when the marriage ends that she will also find the Dis to be a great source of support for that.

(For what it's worth, I do totally agree that no conversation or date night can possible save this marriage. And maybe nothing can. But maybe counseling and learning to communicate with each other could save the marriage, if that's what they both want. And a conversation seems to me to be the best way to start to communicate. If they learned to communicate with each other, then maybe they could also learn to focus on the romance of their marriage and then date nights would be important.)

 

[dennis99ss]

I probably should not jump back in, but......

just some thoughts, ok.

DebInIreland hit the nail on the head. I just have to say, for all of you who are not living this, you have no idea how hard this is for me. It's so easy for you to say go talk to him, but there is no way I can ever explain it so that you can know what this is like. He is a very unique person, you probably don't have anyone in your life you could even try to compare him to. I have an idea, if you have a centerpiece on your table, go talk to it. Try explaining to it that you are not happy, and you need some indication that it really does love you. Ask it questions....after a while of not getting a response, your brain starts to shut down. You just don't have the energy to keep the conversation going. Now, imagine trying to talk to that centerpiece for 14 years. After so many years, you give up. Then after so many years of not bothering, it's hard for you to find you way back to start talking all over again, because you know it is going to be more of the same, oinly this time it is life or death, and even though you are the one that is trying, as unconventional as some seem to think it is, it is at least some type of communication.
I am going to talk to him this morning, now that the lump is gone from my throat that was there last night. I will still go to counseling, but he is the one who is going to pick up the phone and make the appointment. I am not going to do it. I need him to show me something! I need for him to show me he is willing to go out of his comfort zone to save this marriage.

bold #1. I actually agree. when you try, and expect a certain response, and that response does not come back, your mind starts doing loops, and it spirals down, because you don't get what you expected.

Bold #2. I agree. But, that is where someone outside can help.

Bold #3. Don't let your reaction from Bold #1 control your desire to force him into doing something. I know you feel like everytime you extend a hand, you get slapped, but, only you can determine if your extending the hand to counseling, and making the call is worth all the time you have invested.

Finally, just a thought, email can be used as a protective measure......where you don't want to have a confrontation, don't want the talk, or otherwise, maybe because you don't wannt to hear what will be said in response. Maybe you don't want to hear he doesn't want to work at it.......but, hearing it is much better than assuming it.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Okay, we can agree to disagree....

But, let me clarify my position.

1. I have never given the OP any advice on whether to save, or not to save their marriage...

In my first post, I shared my experience and some general advice.
I have since told her that "if (notice the IF) her husband is non-responsive and does not want to acknowledge any issues... then I do not see how anything can work out.

2. At this point, my advice to the OP has not been whether to end, or not to end, her marriage.... based on her post, her husband is basicly non-responsive, except to be judgemental and throw around words like 'idiot'. And, based on the Title of her post, I assume that she is NOT conflicted, whatsoever. She has never wavered in her defense of her decision.

So, my advice has had absolutely nothing to do with whether she should end her marriage.

At this point, the OP is in a very emotional and personal situation...
So, yes, I am, without a doubt, advising the OP to "Back away from this thread, and move forward with doing what is right for HER."

I am not telling the OP to leave her husband.
I NEVER have.
I am not 'defending' the OP.

I am giving her what I feel to be some very sound and important advice.

 

[Scurvy]

I am giving her what I feel to be some very sound and important advice.

I know you are. I am giving her what I think is sound and important advice, too. Obviously we both hope she ends up happy, we just have different ideas of what we think would best accomplish that. I hope she'll choose the advice that she thinks will make her happiest in the long run, whichever that is. Or that she'll choose neither but instead pick and choose from all the information in the thread and in the rest of her life and come up with the path that she feels will lead to the best possible outcome for her.

 

[lovemygoofy]

That is a very nice post Lovemygoofy!

However, to say that the OP has to 'PLAN' a supper out... and to accuse her of expecting her husband to be a 'mind-reader', just so they can have supper together?

Sorry, i'm just not seeing it that way.

I'm sorry that you think I'm trying to accuse the OP of something because I'm not. I'm saying that sometimes people in relationships expect needs and wants to be met without ever verbalizing what it is. This can cause big emotional issues that result in even further break down in communication.

I understand wanting a demonstration of love completely. However, I think expecting something BIG if it's not something that has been done in the past is being almost unreasonable. If the OP wanted a dinner out with her husband, I don't understand why she couldn't have said " your mother is watching the kids tonight, please meet me at chili's at 7pm if you aren't home before that." It gets the message across that it's just dinner alone. of course it could also be said that after the letter that he received, that it could be interpreted as the dinner of doom.

I want whatever the OP wants whether it's try for this marriage or for another. I just wanted to put out the point of verbalizing needs and wants and expectations. One book that really helped my marriage in the beginning when it looked like it would run out of gas was "The Seven Languages of Love." It helped me really understand my husband and how he wants to receive love and how he shows love. He shows love through actions but I need to know love through words, though I'm not that great at giving words. Ironic huh?

I hope in the end that everyone involved can find the happines that they desire through the outcome they dream of.

 

[karibritt01]

If you have decided that being willing to work on the relationship isn't enough - that he must be the one to call - then that's what you should stick to. But I don't think you should play games with him. You should communicate your requirement clearly. Don't tell him that you want counseling and then assume he'll figure out that he's the one that has to call. Tell him he has to call or you will consider the relationship over by X date. You've let the relationship go for 14 years without communication. And yes, I can see why, but that's the status quo at this point. If you want a change now it's on you to communicate that.

I agree... but not. I think that sticking to your guns is probably best for you. And that you need to tell him exactly what you expect him to do at this point. But don't deliver it as an ultimatum. Most people react negatively to those on face value alone, and never hear anything else. I would tell your DH that you are willing to go to counseling if he wants to try to save the marriage. If he agrees, then he should make the appointment according to his schedule, and let you know where and when to show up. That still puts the ball in his court, and communicates exactly what you want from him, but does not back him into a corner.

OP, I am SOOOO sorry!!!!!

I can see how you were tempted to make that one last post, but WALK AWAY.... You do NOT deserve the inappropriate and judgemental posts here in this thread...

Folks, THE HORSE IS DEAD.
The horse is WAY beyond dead.

It doesn't matter if we, as DISers personally understand one little tiny bit...
It doesn't matter what our personal experiences have been.
We are not walking in the OP's shoes.
It is very obvious that there are some issues here (especially emotional/communication deficits on the husband's part) that nobody understands. There may be nice little diagnosis acronyms, but that doesn't even mean that the so called 'experts' understand'.

OP, The horse is dead...
You do not deserve this...
In fact, I think it may be a good time for you to look into some counseling for yourself to see why you have accepted/enabled, even seeked out, this kind of relationship.

It crosses my mind that coming back to this thread, to these unfeeling judgemental posters, is similar to going back to your unfeeling judgemental husband, yet one more time, trying to seek some acceptance - love- validation....

JUST DON'T DO IT..... You do not need a bunch of negative, unqualified, judgemental nay-sayers to tell you to 'do more'. It might be a good idea to find out why you have gone so far and done so much for this long.

I wish you happiness!!!!!!

With the exception of a few posters early on in this thread, no one is criticizing the OP. They are trying to offer advice. It is then up to OP to decide which advice is helpful, and which to ignore. We all do it daily IRL with friends, coworkers, and family. And if you read the posts, you would see that most do understand, because our marriages are not perfect either.

 

[DebIreland]

If the OP wanted a dinner out with her husband, I don't understand why she couldn't have said " your mother is watching the kids tonight, please meet me at chili's at 7pm if you aren't home before that."

What would that achieve? Let's assume the DH turns up. He sits down and eats his dinner. Most likely OP brings up their relationship. DH stays silent. She brings up the relationship again. He remains silent. After a while he comments on the weather and the nice salad and they chat about that. They then go home. That's it. I'm not trying to be smarmy or sarcastic here. I'm just presenting a likely outcome. What has that outcome achieved? Sure, the dinner has been eaten. But the hopes and desires BEHIND the dinner remain dashed and unfulfilled. She needs her DH to make one move, just ONE move that will show he too is willing to try, that she doesn't have to make each and every decision *all* the time, that he can in some way show love and respect to her, without her begging for it. He needs to show that he too can reach out and take responsibility for his part of the marriage.

 

[Disney Doll]

OP, please do yourself a favor and go to a counselor.

You have communication issues too. The note-writing and e-mailing indicate that you seem to have with face-to-face communication. Now, perhaps you used to be a wonderful face-to-face communicator and years of living with this man have stunted all that. If that's the case, then you are still going to need to re-learn how to communicate better, if for no other reason than because you don't want your next relationship spiralling downward because of the bad communication habits you learned in this marriage.

I'd like you to figure out what attracted you to this man...what "needs" he fulfilled. Often, we are attracted to the same "type" of person again and again, because there is something in us which finds that type of person attractive, even if they may not be our best match. Perhaps your father was a non-communicator and you married someone like Dad? Perhaps your childhood was spent in a household of not "dealing with" things openly..."if we ignore it and don't discuss it, it will go away". Perhaps the "strong silent type" was what was role-modeled to you in many ways so that's what you sought in a husband. But you do need to figure it out, so you don't make the same mistake again.

Once you figure all that out, I'd like you to work with someone who can break the cycle, so that you don't end up in this same kind of relationship again. From the content of your posts, you want an open, loving, communicative marriage. You don't know how to have one of those kinds of marriage for various reasons, so you'll need to learn how to recognize the qualities in a partner that will get you what you want.

Despite what Wishing thinks, there is no one here that is trying to hurt you. You have asked for support, and save for a few nasty folks who will appear on any thread, you have gotten support. You have also received advice, and some "life stories" as examples of different people and how they have dealt with similar situations. Perhaps you have gotten some advice that has also been difficult to hear, but just because it's difficult to hear, doesn't make it bad advice. Sometimes what we need to hear and what we want to hear are 2 different things....

I wish you well.....

 

[Wishing on a star]

Excellent post above!

Said much more eloquently and detailed than has been before.

 

[Renesmee]

Thank you...I did talk to Dh today. We went for a drive, because with 3 kids running around, it is hard to talk.

He is leaving. He doesn't think counseling will help, he feels we will just end up seperated anyway. I explained to him a counselor will help us learn how to commicate better, and we should at least give it a try. He repeated that we will probably end up seperated anyway. This is his way of giving me my answer. He doesn't love me. Which is fine. Once we had this talk, I felt better immediately. The guilt was gone, because now I can move on knowing it is mutual. He even said the word mutual. I asked him if he was going to blame me, and he said "No, it's mutual." I told him I didn't want him out there telling everyone his wife threw him out, and he said he wouldn't do that. He doesn't want it to get ugly and nasty, he wants to stay friends. Of course. The kids need to see that we are friends.

The irony in all this? I think we will communicate much better seperated.

Thank you all. I did try the best way that I could. Even though it is not how some of you would have gone about doing it, it is how I deal with things.

Now I move on to the next chapter of my life.......

 

[Renesmee]

OP, please do yourself a favor and go to a counselor.

You have communication issues too. The note-writing and e-mailing indicate that you seem to have with face-to-face communication. Now, perhaps you used to be a wonderful face-to-face communicator and years of living with this man have stunted all that. If that's the case, then you are still going to need to re-learn how to communicate better, if for no other reason than because you don't want your next relationship spiralling downward because of the bad communication habits you learned in this marriage.

I'd like you to figure out what attracted you to this man...what "needs" he fulfilled. Often, we are attracted to the same "type" of person again and again, because there is something in us which finds that type of person attractive, even if they may not be our best match. Perhaps your father was a non-communicator and you married someone like Dad? Perhaps your childhood was spent in a household of not "dealing with" things openly..."if we ignore it and don't discuss it, it will go away". Perhaps the "strong silent type" was what was role-modeled to you in many ways so that's what you sought in a husband. But you do need to figure it out, so you don't make the same mistake again.

Once you figure all that out, I'd like you to work with someone who can break the cycle, so that you don't end up in this same kind of relationship again. From the content of your posts, you want an open, loving, communicative marriage. You don't know how to have one of those kinds of marriage for various reasons, so you'll need to learn how to recognize the qualities in a partner that will get you what you want.

Despite what Wishing thinks, there is no one here that is trying to hurt you. You have asked for support, and save for a few nasty folks who will appear on any thread, you have gotten support. You have also received advice, and some "life stories" as examples of different people and how they have dealt with similar situations. Perhaps you have gotten some advice that has also been difficult to hear, but just because it's difficult to hear, doesn't make it bad advice. Sometimes what we need to hear and what we want to hear are 2 different things....

I wish you well.....

Thank you Disney Doll. You have given me a lot to think about. I have certainly learned my lesson. I am not sure how soon I will be looking for another realtionship, if I do at all. But I certainly am going to do my best not to make the same mistake twice.

 

[Tuffcookie]

TC

 

[PrincessKsMom]

OP, glad to hear you have your definitive answer. Now you won't beat yourself up for not being sure how it all would have ended. I'm also glad to hear that your DH was honest enough with himself and you, to put an end to something that isn't making either one of you happy. All the best to you and your family as you start on this new journey.