Elementary orchestra-how involved would you be?

[Tinijocaro]

As a parent, if your child (5th grade) expressed dismay that they once again have not been placed in first chair cello in the big district orchestra, how would you react? This child was placed second chair. This is a regular school orchestra, not an honors group.

Do you even give seating a thought at this level?

ETA: please read at least down to my next two posts, it explains the situation much better.

 

[Southernmiss]

As a parent, if your child (5th grade) expressed dismay that they once again have not been placed in first chair cello in the big district orchestra, how would you react? This child was placed second chair. This is a regular school orchestra, not an honors group.

Do you even give seating a thought at this level?

If it's like marching band in middle and high school, the kids tryout for chair seating and those that score better get higher chair order... more practice needed maybe ??

 

[Tinijocaro]

No tryouts at this level. I guess I'm wondering if you as a parent would contact the teacher about this.

 

[emer95]

No, I don't give it a second thought. My daughter has played the harp since 3rd grade. She's in 7th now, and never once has she been in 1st chair. The only thought I give it is that it's difficult to get pictures of her during a concert, LOL. I'd never contact the teacher about it.

 

[Southernmiss]

No tryouts at this level. I guess I'm wondering if you as a parent would contact the teacher about this.

Has there ever been an explanation about how chair order is determined? If not, I think I would tactfully ask sometime.

 

[JOCAmom]

As a parent, if your child (5th grade) expressed dismay that they once again have not been placed in first chair cello in the big district orchestra, how would you react? This child was placed second chair. This is a regular school orchestra, not an honors group.

Do you even give seating a thought at this level?

When you say big district orchestra, do you mean multiple schools playing in one concert? How long have the other students been playing?

If it is, I would not say anything. My daughter is in 5th and plays the sax. Our school district just did an all-city band and orchestra concert. All the 5th graders from each elementary school were able to perform together with different instrumental teachers conducting. My daughter was 2nd chair in alto sax. She was disappointed but she wasn't just competing against her friends from her school. It was the whole district. I told her if she wanted to be 1st chair in something like this she needed to work and practice harder.

 

[Tinijocaro]

OK, I'll come clean. I am the teacher and was sent a nasty email from a parent who was very upset that their daughter was not going to be in the first chair at our concert. Keep in mind that at this level, kids don't really even know about "chairs". I don't mention it and I always scatter good players throughout a section to help the weaker players. I don't care for music to be a competition at this level.

'Sophie" has never been placed in first chair due to a couple reasons. She is usually unprepared for lessons (no books, rockstop...) and has to be sponken to frequently during rehearsal for not paying attention, goofing around, and just gnenerally not being a good example.

The girl who has been in that chair is responsible, always prepared for lessons and rehearsal, and doesn't goof around during rehearsal.

Sophie's parent and I discussed why their child wasn't placed in this seat, they apparently didn't like hearing that Sophie isn't perfect. Parent said "I think music should be treated separately from behavior. If you are a good player, behavior shouldn't matter."

Anyways, they kept her out of the concert. Not a phone call, not an email. They have decided to pull her from my program until the end of the year and she will start back up in the fall when she goes to middle school where she will have a different teacher.

Zoey and the other girl are both above average players. Zoey takes private lessons and the other one doesn't.

I'm just shocked that a parent would be so upset that their child is seated 2nd out of 12 cellos. Seating at this level is such a non-issue. they are just happy to be playing with their friends. The kids don't mention it or seem to care. I only make sure that the front of each section has a fairly strong player who is also responsible and respectful.


DH and I are both music teachers and while dh (high school band) has encountered an occasional parent who tries to get involved in this stuff, it is virtually unheard of at the level I am teaching, a first for me in ten years of teaching.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Yes, the four schools I teach at are combined for one joint concert. These kids will all be together in 6th grade. The two girls I'm talking about are in the same school. They are both quite a bit higher level than the rest of the cellos.

When you say big district orchestra, do you mean multiple schools playing in one concert? How long have the other students been playing?

If it is, I would not say anything. My daughter is in 5th and plays the sax. Our school district just did an all-city band and orchestra concert. All the 5th graders from each elementary school were able to perform together with different instrumental teachers conducting. My daughter was 2nd chair in alto sax. She was disappointed but she wasn't just competing against her friends from her school. It was the whole district. I told her if she wanted to be 1st chair in something like this she needed to work and practice harder.

 

[Southernmiss]

It does sound as if you have a snowflakes parent on your hands.

Maybe at the start of the new season chair order determination should be explained to the parents at the outset and explain what all you will look for in making that determination. Let the parents know that you are firm about your expectations.

 

[JOCAmom]

My 5th grader only knows about chairs because her older sister played the violin throughout middle school. They discuss band and orchestra and how things progress through the years of school.

But in your case, those parents need a reality check. If their daughter is not as good as the other student, that's just how it is. Make note of any communication they have had with you in case they decide to take it above you. It may not be about chairs at this point but it is about giving recognition to those who are the best at their level.

 

[EclecticWAHM]

How involved would I be? Not at all in this situation. I've let my kids learn lessons on their own without stepping in. You can't always get what you want and life isn't always fair. It's better to learn that sooner than later in life. Perhaps that's why my kids aren't obnoxious little snots with entitlement issues.

The parent's comment is outrageous. They are setting their kid up for major failure with an attitude that behavior doesn't matter if you have talent. That's just stupid. Behavior and work ethic mean so much more than talent.

 

[Southernmiss]

How involved would I be? Not at all in this situation. I've let my kids learn lessons on their own without stepping in. You can't always get what you want and life isn't always fair. It's better to learn that sooner than later in life. Perhaps that's why my kids aren't obnoxious little snots with entitlement issues.

The parent's comment is outrageous. They are setting their kid up for major failure with an attitude that behavior doesn't matter if you have talent. That's just stupid. Behavior and work ethic mean so much more than talent.

Agree completely.

 

[Tinijocaro]

It does sound as if you have a snowflakes parent on your hands.

Maybe at the start of the new season chair order determination should be explained to the parents at the outset and explain what all you will look for in making that determination. Let the parents know that you are firm about your expectations.

If I was teaching middle or high school I might do this but I really don't want seating to become a thing that makes my young students focus on competition rather than the love of music.

If I start mentioning seating to the parents, more idiots will come out of the woodwork and turn this all into a competition.

At this level, I am working on basic skills and creating a love of music.

I tell my own freshman violinist dd-"It doesn't matter where in the orchestra you sit, you are getting the exact same experience in the back as you are in the front" I've said this to her when she has been disappointed with a seating audition.

 

[Southernmiss]

I tell my own freshman violinist dd-"It doesn't matter where in the orchestra you sit, you are getting the exact same experience in the back as you are in the front" I've said this to her when she has been disappointed with a seating audition.[/QUOTE]

I like this. Have you said it to your students?

Unfortunately, we seem to be in an age of competition and me/my child should be first.

 

[Tinijocaro]

My 5th grader only knows about chairs because her older sister played the violin throughout middle school. They discuss band and orchestra and how things progress through the years of school.

But in your case, those parents need a reality check. If their daughter is not as good as the other student, that's just how it is. Make note of any communication they have had with you in case they decide to take it above you. It may not be about chairs at this point but it is about giving recognition to those who are the best at their level.

Sophie knows about chairs because her older brother (I used to teach him too) is in an area youth orchestra where seating auditions are held and the same at his middle school.

The two are equal players. Both players and other strong players were invited by me to perform with a guest fiddle group on this concert. I only invited about 15 out of 80 kids so had she come to the concert, she would have been recognized in that way. I also read names, including hers, of kids who will be participating in an upcoming solo festival. I put those kids names on the school announcements too, after the festival. Plenty of recognition.

 

[Tinijocaro]

I like this. Have you said it to your students?

Unfortunately, we seem to be in an age of competition and me/my child should be first.

I tell my students that it is easier to be toward the front of the orchestra than toward the back. You have to really listen and watch the conductor more. I somehow have even made playing second violin somewhat of a status thing among my 5th graders. They are all chomping at the bit to play second violin.

I've never had students complain about where they are sitting-only if it relates to not being able to sit near their best friend so no, I have not told them that.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Here is the original email I received from the parent. Names have been changed to protect the snowflake.

"I am confused. Has Sophie been placed in the first chair at all this year for orchestra? She has not complained to us about this, but when asked which chair she is sitting in, she has once again said "behind Jennie". Sophie is a VERY strong cellist (as you are aware). I am totally confused as to why you have continually placed her in that seat, instead of (at least) alternating per concert. I look forward to hearing from you."

BTW, she said she looked forward to hearing from me, but after I called her twice (no WAY I was having this discussion through email), she refused to call me back. She was too upset. How do I know this? Her husband told me. He is a teacher at the same school!!!!! Talk about awkward and uncomfortable.

 

[MinervaMouse]

Those orchestra moms can be a pain! I attended one of the concerts as a 2012 alum at my high school's winter concert with a friend. A flute mom yelled at my friend because she put her hair up and it was apparently "blocking her daughter". I'm sorry about the awkward situation you're in, behavior most certainly should play a part in placement! Not being prepared for lessons while being first chair sends a horrible message to the other students, even at such a young age.

I was an oboist from fifth until seventh grade, and never even thought twice about chair placement. When I transitioned into bassoon before high school, that's when blood was shed over seating. Although, there were only three bassoons in the top ensemble, so we didn't obsess over it as much as the flutes or clarinets.

 

[Southernmiss]

Sophie knows about chairs because her older brother (I used to teach him too) is in an area youth orchestra where seating auditions are held and the same at his middle school.

.

Wanted to miltiquote your replies, but can't on my phone.

It seems as though Sophie 's parents are comparing your program to the way their son's program is run.

I think that point should be made to them as you explain how your program works and that at the younger level multiple factors go into position placement in your orchestra and they should know this from when their son was a member.

By the way, I didn't find the email particularly nasty by itself. But I am sure that it may have felt that way because of your relationship as collegue to the husband; your later phone call attempts to the mom and their lack of attendance at the concert and questioning you about your procedures. Yes, all of that adds up to uncomfortable.

 

[katrina1122]

Is the high school orchestra she'll be in super competitive? Then, her chair now can be a motivating factor to prepare for high school. If it's not, then it really doesn't matter.

My HS stage bands were both SUPER competitive. Often times our top band won a competition with the 2nd band coming in 2nd place above all of the other HS top bands. We knew this when we started in the 5th grade. The HS band would visit all the elementary schools and play for them. It was ingrained in us to do well now to do great then. I started private lessons right away and never stopped thru graduation in 12th. My chair position was huge to me and we were constantly being re-seated with on the spot and planned auditions from 6th grade on. I would cry about a loss and stress about an upcoming test. My parents personally knew the HS band director. Never once did they step in and question my seat placement from beginning to end. Elementary to High School.

You need to approach this with your dd as a lesson to strive to do better, or say it doesn't matter. Either way it's not up to you to talk to the orchestra director.

ETA: I just noticed you are the teacher and got an email. No the parents should not have approached you, but my point about preparing for HS competition still stands if it's relevant.