ECV and Buses

[Andrew Bichard]

Tyler,

A few comments on Wheelchair loading onto ramp buses.

My electric wheelchair is a rear wheel dive model with front casters. Because of this I can hold a perfect line when going forward at any speed and any power setting. It is not as easy in reverse. I have no problems a low speed settings on flat floors. If there is even the slightest cross fall (from left to right) I tend to turn unpredictably when reversing at low power. To get up a steep ramp I have to use full power, which I cannot do in reverse. I have anti tip wheels at the back so I *cannot* tip over backwards.

Unless the ramp is near flat, I cannot reverse onto a bus unless someone 'steers' me by holding my footrests. If I am on the lowest power setting I cannot get up theramp without someone pushing as well. If I go on foreward I can manage on my own, though I have to take a run at the ramp on full power if the ramp is steep. I have no problem if the bus pulls up at a curb, because the ram is relatively flat. I have a problem where there is no curb (as at Animal Kingdom) and the ramp is much steeper. Disney needs a few portable ramp extensions at stops with no curbs to make the ramps longer, and therefore less steep.

You hint that there may have been a incident whith a guest tipping his or her power chair over backwards. Had such an incident happened, would it have happened at a stop with a curb, or without one?

I am surprised about Disney's polict regarding manual chairs. I have *never* tipped over backwards in my power wheelchair, though I *have* done so in my manual. Given free choice I would therefor go up ramps foreward in my powerchair and reverse up them in my manual.

Disney should beware of making rules without considering the individual. This is especially true of the disabled.

Andrew

 

[SueM in MN]

Andrew, I was going to cover just that information in Mobility Devices, Part 2, or why Lisa's Chair doesn't Like to Go up Backwards, so you have saved me doing the rear wheel drive power wheelchair part with your excellent explanation.

I think WDW needs to understand that all mobility devices are not the same. They operate and act very differently and need to be treated differently.

When you look at an ecv,

many of them have one wheel in front and some have 2. What they have in common is that the front wheel is in front of the whole vehicle and your feet. The driving wheels are in the back and almost all the weight is in the back. They are not fitted to the individual, you pretty much buy or rent one as is, like buying a pair of shoes at the store. It would be very possible for an ecv to be unbalanced - they are quite long with all the weight in the back.

A power wheelchair is much like having a pair of shoes custom fitted to you. They take a lot of measurements and put some standard pieces together to make a chair that fits the parson. The wheels are much closer together than an ecv. The footrests are usually in front of the wheels and the front wheels swivel freely. As Andrew said, going forwards, you can keep the front wheels going straight, going backwards, not so easy. The weight is distributed much more evenly over all the wheels, so they are not really "back-heavy" like an ecv is. As Andrew mentioned, they have antitip wheels in the back. A power wheelchair is also very heavy; my DD's is over 300 pound (sorry Andrew, too early for conversions to metric) without her in it, so, no matter how heavy the person using it is, it's unlikely the wheelchair will be unbalanced.

The design of Lisa's wheelchair is called a mid-wheel design (thanks for the model number, I think I got the right one).

The main advantage of those wheelchairs is that they are very easy to turn and manouver. The driving wheels are right under the seat, so almost all the weight is on those wheels, making it very stable. She also has 3 sets of wheels, but look at the back set of wheels. They are on swivels like the front wheels on a rear wheel drive wheelchair. If she tries to back, it is almost impossible to keep those rear wheels going in a straight line. That's why her wheelchair should not be backed up a ramp.

 

[Talking Hands]

Sue,
You hit the problem right on the head. With my power wheelchair the back wheels swivel making backing an impossible task. Whoever is making these policies are not looking at the weelchairs and are making sweeping rules without proper knowledge.

 

[Andrew Bichard]

Sue,

No-one can argue with the fact that there are an infinite variety of powerchair designs, all with different handling characteristics.

Each of us knows our own chair and how it handles best, and we should have some say in how best we are loaded onto a bus. Disney obviously has to make its own safety rules, but it should take into account these differences.

If say, a driver insisted I reverse onto a bus, despite my protestations that it was safer for me to go forward, and I then fell off the side of the ramp, I might consider Disney liable for my injuries.

Andrew

PS

One other important difference between a scooter and a power chair like mine, Lisas or yours is that a scooter steers with handlebars connected to the front wheels. The scooter goes whichever way you point the front wheel or wheels and you have very positive steering control.

A power wheelchair has two powered wheels with separate motors, invidually controlled, which do the driving *and* the steering. They also have two (or four ion Lisa's chair) caster wheels which do nothing except keep the other end off the ground. Power wheelchairs steer by making one side go faster than the other. I find it very difficult to control my direction going backwards especially over uneven ground. The fact that I have no mirrors, and that my disability restricts my ability to look over my shoulder does not help. As you say, the fact that powerchairs have a much shorter wheelbase than a scooter also makes them less directionally stable especially in reverse. Wheelchairs are designed primarily for indoor manoevreability with the ability to turn in their own length (though most powerchairs are rugged enough for outdoor use and mine is highway legal in the UK).

One other problem with a powerchair occurs when you come to a full stop and then move off again in reverse. In this instance the caster wheels have to turn 180 degrees. This is no problem when you have plenty of space to spare, but in a confined space, such as a narrow bus ramp with raised edgesyou can have problems. No problem if you can sweep up the ramp in one go without stopping. But if you run out of steam half way up and the chair rolls back a few inches, the casters turn sideways and you end up unable to move up or down! This is another reason I like to go up ramps forwards travelling briskly, gather than reversing slowly and stalling halfway up.

I also have the advantage on my own chair of powered seat tilt, which allows me to tilt backwards to remain upright when going down steep slopes. It also alows me to shift my weight backwards towards the rear wheels when I heed a little extra grip. Not every chair has this facility.

As well as the scooters and powerchairs you have illustrated, I have also seen front wheel drive scooters with the motor over the front wheel, Powerchairs with the drive wheels at the front and casters at the rear, various power add-ons to manual chairs and most recently a curious powerchair/scooter hybrid too difficult to describe.

 

[Nanajo1]

It would be interesting to find out who, if anyone, Disney consults with when making these type of decisions for the H/P community. It is obvious that no one with any know how was involved in the roll-in shower design. Again it is lumping all H/P in one size fits all solution. I am appreciative of how assessible WDW is (I try to go often as I can!) but there is room for improvement.

 

[SueM in MN]

I also wonder who is deciding the rules and what sort of knowledge base they have.

The main point I was trying to make is that lumping power wheelchairs together with scooters is a big mistake.
I don't know about the products available outside the US, but in the US, there are 2 common types of power wheelchairs(rear drive and mid-wheel drive) and rear wheel drive scooters will be most common. And any rear wheel drive will have a lot in common with another rear drive wheelchair. So I was doing some educational posts for Tyler. I hope that you are not feeling too overwhelmed, Tyler. When we find someone who expresses an interest, we try to educate them.

Like Lisa and Andrew mentioned, a person who drives a power wheelchair, is the best judge of what it can and can't do and under what circumstances. I think one of WDW's assumptions may be that everyone driving a mobility device is in-experienced. That might be true for some people who are using ecvs, but you are unlikely to find any in-experienced power wheelchair users at WDW.

If say, a driver insisted I reverse onto a bus, despite my protestations that it was safer for me to go forward, and I then fell off the side of the ramp, I might consider Disney liable for my injuries.

I hope it never gets to that, but if necessary, I would be honored to be a witness in your behalf.

 

[CdnDisneyNut]

On my resent trip I had problems with one of the Nova LFS (low floor/Kneeling) buses. I had a rental scooter from an off site vendor. The bus that had arrived after a day at Epcot wer one of the low floor buses. When I attempted to back up the scotter up the the ramp on the bus: the scooter did not have enough power to get on the ramp. With the help of the driver, myself (off the scooter) and fellow passenger we were able to get it on the ramp and onto the the bus. Do not know if it was the bus itself or the battery condition (charge needle was almost on the yellow). The scooter was able to get off the bus and back my room without any problem. Later in the I encounter the same type of bus. I attempted to back the scooter onto the bus however the CM told me to 'drive it' in. I had no problem what so ever. Has Disney changed their policy on loading instuctions on the the LFS buses.

 

[Talking Hands]

No, they have not but most drivers have the good sense to listen to you when you tell them it won't work with your equipment. There could have been nothing wrong with your ECV. Many ECVs are set to use 3/4 power when backing and this may not be enough to back up a ramp.
I had a big problem with one driver who would not listen to me and was very rude and degrading about it. When I insisted on speaking to the supervisor she was also condescending and kept claiming it was for my own safety. I didn't know putting me into a dangerous situation was for my own "safety". Plus she refused to remain facing me so I could speech read or to call an interpreter so I could understand her without her having to face me. I know it is disconcerting for hearing people to have a person like me staring at their face but it is necessary when you have a hearing loss no matter how slight.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by CdnDisneyNut
When I attempted to back up the scotter up the the ramp on the bus: the scooter did not have enough power to get on the ramp. With the help of the driver, myself (off the scooter) and fellow passenger we were able to get it on the ramp and onto the the bus. Do not know if it was the bus itself or the battery condition (charge needle was almost on the yellow). The scooter was able to get off the bus and back my room without any problem. Later in the I encounter the same type of bus. I attempted to back the scooter onto the bus however the CM told me to 'drive it' in. I had no problem what so ever. Has Disney changed their policy on loading instuctions on the the LFS buses.

Our original policy with the Nova LFS was to allow guests to board the bus in any manner they felt most comfortable. For the typical rented scooter, most guests felt most comfortable driving it up normally.

However... a few months ago, there was a 'situation.' I'm not sure if legally I am allowed to discuss what happened, however, suffice to say, some changes were implemented. For about two weeks, all the Low Floor busses were deemed Non-Accessible busses, and were mostly used for Cast Shuttles and whatnot. Once everything was settled, Disney decided for Legal reasons to create a policy. The policy stated that all electric mobility devices have three options with the Low Floor bus and a stop without a curb.

1. Drive the vehicle into the bus in REVERSE.
2. Step out of the vehicle, and guide it up the ramp. (This may be done by anyone, except the bus driver)
3. Wait for a lift equipped bus.
   [/list=1]
   
   Drivers were not allowed to drive the low floor busses until they signed a statement to that effect. There was a big huge to-do about it when it happened. It's by no means a perfect policy, but it's something that had to be done for legal reasons.

 

[Talking Hands]

One other note. Because I am hard of hearing it is extremely difficult for me to hear a person speaking behind me clearly and understand them. For speech, I might as well be completely deaf in these situations. I know someone is speaking but what they are saying is anyone's guess. Therefore I cannot have someone to guide me from the back and warn me if the wheels are of track. Talk about driving blind. Scary.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Talking Hands
No, they have not but most drivers have the good sense to listen to you when you tell them it won't work with your equipment.

Unfortunetly, it's not quite as easy as that... All of our drivers were required to sign papers and whatnot on the boarding policy, and could potentially get into serious trouble for violating such policies. Although there are drivers out there who will allow an electric mobility device to board in forward (for either laziness on enforcing the policy, or because in thier judgement, forward is best), they are breaking company policy, and there are such drivers that do not wish to do so. They should not be penalized for following the company policy... UNLESS they are less than Disney about it.

 

[SueM in MN]

Although there are drivers out there who will allow an electric mobility device to board in forward (for either laziness on enforcing the policy, or because in thier judgement, forward is best), they are breaking company policy, and there are such drivers that do not wish to do so.

That's too bad; it will put drivers in the position of sometimes having to choose between what is safest (for that person) and what is policy. For some people, going on forwards is best with a ramp (and safest). If there was an "incident" with someone going on forwards, I'm sure there will be an "incident" sooner or later with someone backing on. Since legal department often swing all one way instead of using common sense, the policy then will probably change to "all board forward".
We are thinking of bringing DD's power wheelchair on our next WDW trip for the first time. I just hope we don't end up with one of the ramp buses because backing up the long ramp will probably not be an option - and she can't get out of her wheelchair for someone else to drive it up for her, so we'll be waiting for the lift equipped bus. I wonder what other places that use these buses do?

 

[Andrew Bichard]

Originally posted by Chip 'n Dale Express
Disney decided for Legal reasons to create a policy. The policy stated that all electric mobility devices have three options with the Low Floor bus and a stop without a curb.

1. Drive the vehicle into the bus in REVERSE.
2. Step out of the vehicle, and guide it up the ramp. (This may be done by anyone, except the bus driver)
3. Wait for a lift equipped bus.
   [/list=1]
   
   Drivers were not allowed to drive the low floor busses until they signed a statement to that effect. There was a big huge to-do about it when it happened. It's by no means a perfect policy, but it's something that had to be done for legal reasons.

1. 
   
   As I stated in an earlier post, I have a problem getting on to low floor bussses with my electric wheelchair (not an ECV) in two situations:
   
   1) reversing, when I cannot hold a straight line and
   2) going forward up an excessively steep ramp, such as where there is no curb
   
   Apparently, Disney has rejected the option of providing secondary loading ramps at curbless locations such as park entrances (short ramps rising 5 or 6 inches, the usual height of a curb.
   
   In the short term, I see no problem waiting for a regular lift equipped bus, but in the long term, as a greater proportion of lift equipped buses get phased out, Disney should expect challenges under ADA that insufficient provision is being made for wheelchair users.
   
   I find it sad that Disney is attempting to solve a problem regarding wheelchair access with lawyers rather than engineers. I have always regarded Disney as a company that was 'disabled friendly', making provision that was always ahead of ADA minimum standards. In this respect at least, they are putting cost saving and liability avoidance ahead of disabled provision and are now complying only with the letter, not the spirit of ADA.
   
   Andrew

 

[Talking Hands]

You know Tyler I don't give too hoots what a driver had to sign when it comes to MY SAFETY. I will refuse to back up a ramped bus and they can figure out how not to inconveninece me. And believe me I will be screaming if I miss shows due to this policy. It is out and out discrimination and stupidity. Discrimination in that I will have to wait for another bus if I do not comply and risk MY SAFETY by backing up a ramp with no control and no ability to get guidance due to my hearing loss. Stupidity because to lump all power wheelchairs into one category is just plain stupid.
I don't want to hear that this policy is for my safety because it ISN'T SAFE AT ALL in my particular type of wheelchair. As far as I am concerned the ramp buses are inaccessible under current policies and Disney has no business claiming they are.
My chair will not flip backwards but it will veer off the ramp if run backwards. If that isn't unsafe I don't know what is. I've already been injured once due to the stupidity of a driver. It will never happen again!
I do see a problem waiting for a second lift equipped bus when I have one show per day of each show in the interpreted parks and if I miss it I don't get to see it again until the next day it is shown or normally until my next trip. On my trip in late June I missed Jungle Cruise and Diamond Horseshoe because of problems with the bus transportation. I had stayed an extra day to do them. Guess what. I was out of luck and had to wait until August.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Lisa, (& all)

I understand that you are frustrated with Disney's current policy, however, please be aware that us drivers have no say in it. We simply do as we are told. I am not saying I agree with this, I am just simply communicating what Disney is telling us. Once again, I understand your frustration about it, but us drivers have No Control over this issue, and taking frustration out on the driver will do no good except waste valuable time and energy.

What I would suggest, is getting in contact with Disney Transport yourself, and explaining to them your situation. Perhaps by educating the people who do have control over the issue, we can find a resolution to this problem. Coming from a guest who is an more of an expert in such matters would have more of a affect and influence on them, than from myself, of whom they are already tired of hearing all my many issues that I keep bringing up.

 

[SueM in MN]

Tyler, do you have an address that we can contact (snail mail and email)?
I realize that you and the other drivers are in a "Catch 22". If you do what policy says, you will be inconveniencing and possibly be putting some guests at risk. If you don't follow policy, you will be disciplined for not following policy.
i think those of us who know what the problems are need to contact WDW Transportation and let them know that "One size fits all", fits no one.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Sue...

Yes, for those interested, I will send (via PM) desired contact information.

 

[Talking Hands]

Actually I have spoken to a supervisor and was only belittled. I have written DIsney and not had the courtesy of a reply. My complaints fall in "deaf" ears. I hate that term because it is degrading to the Deaf community. Actually often the Deaf understand better than the hearing who refuse to listen.
I guess the only way I will be heard is to be injured again. Btw I was injured before because a bus driver tried to force my power wheelchair up the ramp with me in it and it started to go off the side. He used my chair back to push on and injured my back and arm. It was sloughed off. I will not be injured again by stupidity! I will do what is in my best interest as far as safety is concerned. Transportation is the only area at Disney that is subpar as far as access is concerned. Elsewhere it is terrific.

 

[Talking Hands]

I would like that address. Maybe they will have the courtesy to reply.

 

[cupcake]

The problem I had on a bus was when people would not get out of the first flipup seat area, and I needed that space because there were other people standing and blocking where I needed to go. The driver was totally silent about what to do, I had hoped he would be more helpful. I could not believe people did not even try to get out of the way. Subsequent drivers were, however, very nice.

On the upside, I did find out that you can request a specific type of bus from your resort or guest services at a park. I did this to get the wider bus after the bad 1st experience mentioned above. I checked with the concierge (Swan) upon the suggestion of another guest I met on a boat, and with 45 minutes notice, there was the bus. But I did go on the regular busses with lifts later and it was fine for me.

Asking for the bus type of your choice might be worth a try for those who need specific types of accessibility.

The suggestion for newer ECV users to use turtle speed when doing more delicate steering or backing up is also very solid. Even though you can go slow with the tiller on rabbit speed, you get lots more control on turtle.

Cupcake