DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[mkatsy]

Oh my goodness…I never thought to check for this had a couple spare minutes today so I randomly chose a brokerage and then chose an individual from the C-suite and inputted their name into the comptroller to see what they’ve been up to… and what do my eyes see? … a plethora of contracts (animal kingdom and boardwalk) none of which were held for more than 6 months … the old strip and flip … as well as, sales of contracts between members of the C-suite … there is no way Disney doesn’t have them in the crosshairs.

 

[Mouseforward]

Oh my goodness…I never thought to check for this had a couple spare minutes today so I randomly chose a brokerage and then chose an individual from the C-suite and inputted their name into the comptroller to see what they’ve been up to… and what do my eyes see? … a plethora of contracts, none of which were held for more than 6 months … the old strip and flip … as well as, sales of contracts between members of the C-suite … there is no way Disney doesn’t have them in the crosshairs.

I just signed the contract for my first resale that wasn’t owned by Florida LCC , my other two were very much like you described above and this was almost 5 years ago.

 

[Mouseforward]

Now that hopefully something’s under way, can we address the real boardwalk & beach club problem?

We need room key checks to use the Disney buses on crowded days

 

[Cyberc1978]

Oh my goodness…I never thought to check for this had a couple spare minutes today so I randomly chose a brokerage and then chose an individual from the C-suite and inputted their name into the comptroller to see what they’ve been up to… and what do my eyes see? … a plethora of contracts, none of which were held for more than 6 months … the old strip and flip … as well as, sales of contracts between members of the C-suite … there is no way Disney doesn’t have them in the crosshairs.

I just signed the contract for my first resale that wasn’t owned by Florida LCC , my other two were very much like you described above and this was almost 5 years ago.

I wonder how much $$ they have been making yearly with the buy, strip, sell, repeat business? On top they have their rental business too.

It can’t be pennies and it GOT to be them that will be hit the hardest, otherwise what’s the point.

 

[Mouseforward]

I wonder how much $$ they have been making yearly with the buy, strip, sell, repeat business? On top they have their rental business too.

It can’t be pennies and it GOT to be them that will be hit the hardest, otherwise what’s the point.

One of the resale realtors ( not the board sponsor) buy strips and flips Vero contracts and stays for closing costs each year. I mean it’s legal and I guess she doesn’t have to pay as much commission as we would. But games get played all over.

 

[Sandisw]

We also don’t know the entire story about these owners on the Dibb.

I know sometimes CMS get things wrong, and some have even pushed their own personal ideals at times, but how likely is it that CMs are just going around telling people they can’t change the name on a reservation? Without any other provocation? With DVC’s backing?

Yeah, I agree that DVC should never be misleading people and should never use their insider knowledge to exploit the membership. I do commend them on addressing the clarification of what it is to ‘go beyond personal use’ and to safeguard the membership from negative commercial impacts when that is clearly one of the things the contract was set up to be able to enforce.

I think what is happening, from reports and my own experience, is that when someone calls and says they need a lead guest change, and are asked to confirm it’s personal use, owners get nervous and mention it’s a rental.

And CMs are misleading owners it’s not allowed. They tried that with me. And I simply reminded them that renting is allowed and there has been no change to lead guest names since I’d just done it. It falls in personal use.

It was done without question. As I confirmed the other day regarding this, and mentioned that I was hearing rumors that some have been told lead guest changes for rentals is no longer allowed, she said there have been no changes to the rules.

But just reminded me that any changes does require owners to agree again for personal use.

So, yeah, just like the one CM left out the line about renting when reading from the T and C, until I called him on it, I think some CMs are giving inaccurate information

 

[Sandisw]

One of the resale realtors ( not the board sponsor) buy strips and flips Vero contracts and stays for closing costs each year. I mean it’s legal and I guess she doesn’t have to pay as much commission as we would. But games get played all over.

And the ability to transfer only once between memberships one owns will help with this and so will the policy that an owner can rent only for the cost of dues.

As I said, points transferred in, because one doesn’t own them or pay dues on them will not give those owners more points to rent.

So, the whole flip and strip model isn’t going to work the way it has.

 

[papajdog]

As a new owner, if Disney says I can rent up to my annual dues and remain in line with their policy I see that as a huge win. Free trips every year.

 

[Genie+]

Oh my goodness…I never thought to check for this had a couple spare minutes today so I randomly chose a brokerage and then chose an individual from the C-suite and inputted their name into the comptroller to see what they’ve been up to… and what do my eyes see? … a plethora of contracts, none of which were held for more than 6 months … the old strip and flip … as well as, sales of contracts between members of the C-suite … there is no way Disney doesn’t have them in the crosshairs.

The Orange County Comptroller site is great!

The ability for brokers to let both buyers and sellers think they are representing them while also playing the DVC game themselves is a bit shtinky. Most were probably already prepared with an exit strategy, just in case. That’s why stripping and flipping was such a good strategy - only at risk for what is currently held. Getting them at great prices limits how much pain can happen if forced out. I don’t think resale prices can dive too far over this alone, as long as the economy and WDW demand stays strong. Each drop in pricing also means a larger pool of willing buyers. Hopefully this whole chapter ends soon.

And with better enforcement we may see less of these confirmed reservation sites popping up each year too.

 

[mkatsy]

And the ability to transfer only once between memberships one owns will help with this and so will the policy that an owner can rent only for the cost of dues.

As I said, points transferred in, because one doesn’t own them or pay dues on them will not give those owners more points to rent.

So, the whole flip and strip model isn’t going to work the way it has.

They’re buying some of their contracts at the foreclosure sales so Disney clearly knows who they are, they’re bidding against them. Edited to add: thanks to @kilik64 I’ve now seen the electronic bidding site at the Orange County Clerk of the court and I need to take my thoughts back that Disney knows who is bidding against them. I thought everyone was sitting in the room with paddles like you see on tv. But it actually looks more like eBay. ~ my mistake

 

[Genie+]

I think what is happening, from reports and my own experience, is that when someone calls and says they need a lead guest change, and are asked to confirm it’s personal use, owners get nervous and mention it’s a rental.

And CMs are misleading owners it’s not allowed. They tried that with me. And I simply reminded them that renting is allowed and there has been no change to lead guest names since I’d just done it. It falls in personal use.

It was done without question. As I confirmed the other day regarding this, and mentioned that I was hearing rumors that some have been told lead guest changes for rentals is no longer allowed, she said there have been no changes to the rules.

But just reminded me that any changes does require owners to agree again for personal use.

So, yeah, just like the one CM left out the line about renting when reading from the T and C, until I called him on it, I think some CMs are giving inaccurate information.

Yeah I get that, it’s just a stretch to see it as DVC management training CMs to deliberately mislead people as a matter of intended procedure. That CM needs better training. I can’t imagine management directing them to leave sentences out when reading back T&C. I can see something like management’s plan being to encourage members to revisit what personal use means, because enhanced enforcement will be changing the status quo as far as rentals are concerned.

Google searches are going to start including more clarification around rentals needing to be within personal use, and what goes beyond personal use. Something that was never consistent which now there is actually something to be consistent about.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Oh my goodness…I never thought to check for this had a couple spare minutes today so I randomly chose a brokerage and then chose an individual from the C-suite and inputted their name into the comptroller to see what they’ve been up to… and what do my eyes see? … a plethora of contracts (animal kingdom and boardwalk) none of which were held for more than 6 months … the old strip and flip … as well as, sales of contracts between members of the C-suite … there is no way Disney doesn’t have them in the crosshairs.

If anyone has free time it would be very interesting to look at buying versus selling frequency for these individuals and entities over the past 6-12 months.

Many of us suspect at least some were tipped off before the box appeared. Of course, the AUL activity won’t show up in FL.

 

[Brianstl]

I am starting to think you won’t be able to pool contracts at multiple resorts to get your dues dollar total, but you will have a dues dollar total for the total contracts you own at each individual resort. I really don’t think you will be able to use your GF dues to increase what you are able to rent at BW for example. I say this because the rental policy is a condominium association policy for each resort. The associations can’t make or enforce policies for an association they aren’t. I don’t think they will be able to cross streams legally.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I am starting to think you won’t be able to pool contracts at multiple resorts to get your dues dollar total, but you will have a dues dollar total for the total contracts you own at each individual resort. I really don’t think you will be able to use your GF dues to increase what you are able to rent at BW for example. I say this because the rental policy is a condominium association policy for each resort. The associations can’t make or enforce policies for an association they aren’t. I don’t think they will be able to cross streams legally.

That would mean that if you own 160 points at BWV, 300 at VGF, 500 at SSR and so on they would need to have an internal definition of how many points you can rent at each resort.

It sounds like it would make things much more complicated than it had to be.

It would be much easier just to grab each owners total dues and divide it with whatever cost per point they are using.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

What is "Dibb"?

How profitable can it be to strip a contract? The would be buyer has to wait a year in some cases just to see some points. Surely that will affect the resale value? I know I'd be low balling a contract like that.

 

[Kingkonig]

How profitable can it be to strip a contract? The would be buyer has to wait a year in some cases just to see some points. Surely that will affect the resale value? I know I'd be low balling a contract like that.

Should be pretty easy to make a decent amount of money on it. Buy a distressed contract, either from foreclosing from your own lending arm or from a “quick low ball buy” from your resale brokerage arm. You aren’t overpaying for a contract, and you don’t pay brokerage fees. Then, you borrow everything you can, make a few well placed reservations (using former insiders/employees who still have contacts in the company and/or know the weaknesses of the system), sell them at a significant discount to what Disney would, then sell the contracts before the “borrowed” points dues are owed.

Again, as I said probably…130 pages ago or so, I’m not accusing any of the major companies of doing this, I have no evidence that they are. However if I were to set up a way to profit off of the system as it is currently set up, that’s what I would do.

 

[mkatsy]

What is "Dibb"?

How profitable can it be to strip a contract? The would be buyer has to wait a year in some cases just to see some points. Surely that will affect the resale value? I know I'd be low balling a contract like that.

Some of these contracts are being purchased at the Orange County foreclosure sale at the courthouse. I saw transactions that had Poly purchased for $104 a point

 

[Mouseforward]

That would mean that if you own 160 points at BWV, 300 at VGF, 500 at SSR and so on they would need to have an internal definition of how many points you can rent at each resort.

It sounds like it would make things much more complicated than it had to be.

It would be much easier just to grab each owners total dues and divide it with whatever cost per point they are using.

Or even simpler what percent of points are you using?

 

[Mouseforward]

What is "Dibb"?

How profitable can it be to strip a contract? The would be buyer has to wait a year in some cases just to see some points. Surely that will affect the resale value? I know I'd be low balling a contract like that.

The average buyer doesn’t appropriately price bank points or stripped points in a contract.

If you picked up four loaded contracts, and did a transfer out of all four of them to 1 existing contract ( they used to allow owners to do multiple transfers in ) then quickly sell them and rent all those points.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Should be pretty easy to make a decent amount of money on it. Buy a distressed contract, either from foreclosing from your own lending arm or from a “quick low ball buy” from your resale brokerage arm. You aren’t overpaying for a contract, and you don’t pay brokerage fees. Then, you borrow everything you can, make a few well placed reservations (using former insiders/employees who still have contacts in the company and/or know the weaknesses of the system), sell them at a significant discount to what Disney would, then sell the contracts before the “borrowed” points dues are owed.

Again, as I said probably…130 pages ago or so, I’m not accusing any of the major companies of doing this, I have no evidence that they are. However if I were to set up a way to profit off of the system as it is currently set up, that’s what I would do.

I see. A timeshare in foreclosure is treated like any other real estate in foreclosure. I didn't know, it wasn't on my radar.
Unlike a house in foreclosure, at least the defunct owner can't strip the copper and cabinets.

I'd buy a foreclosed contract. I don't see a downside to it.

Some of these contracts are being purchased at the Orange County foreclosure sale at the courthouse. I saw transactions that had Poly purchased for $104 a point

I've no interest in The Polynesian but I would like to add either Riviera or Grand Floridian points. Maybe even Boardwalk or Old Key West if the price was right.

The average buyer doesn’t appropriately price bank points or stripped points in a contract.

If you picked up four loaded contracts, and did a transfer out of all four of them to 1 existing contract ( they used to allow owners to do multiple transfers in ) then quickly sell them and rent all those points.

That seems ---odd. If I was looking at a stripped or loaded contract vs one that is neither, it would matter to me and that translates to dollars. I suppose of my agent advised me to not assign a value to a loaded contract in my offer, I'd take their advise against my own inner thinking.

Yes, I was thinking if one could transfer the points out and build them up in an account they will keep, then yes but I was also thinking the subject contract would lose value due to being stripped of usable points making it a wash but as has been pointed out, buyers don't devalue stripped contracts. Also moot since DVC nipped that transfer option in the keister.



Also----what is Dibb??