AstroBlasters
DIS Veteran
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Every action they take to restrict the system will have unintended consequences.
DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.
- Thread starter Sandisw
- Start date
mkatsy
DIS Veteran
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- May 20, 2023
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If it did come to a lawsuit how would members with deeds in California, Hawaii, and South Carolina have standing? The Florida 718 statute only protects Florida property.
Tatebeck
I Can Go The DIStance
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- Dec 3, 2023
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You only need to have one day still in the 11 month window and you can book up to 7 nights. So you can book 7 nights and wait 6 days, then move that 7 night reservation before the 7th morning when that last day opens up for normal booking to keep that exact room reserved for you
A lot of people have been doing it for a long time, especially for hard to book rooms or popular times and DVC hasn't done anything because they felt it hasn't become a big enough problem. Until maybe now
Genie+
You can never spend enough
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Just like this board is dissecting rentals, many others have delved as deeply into walking.
Both topics are a bit tricky. Unintended consequences are always a risk, so answering one thing might end up opening a different can of worms. Plus there is concern that changes might reduce the flexibility/value for us members.
In the earlier days of DVC, reservations were made 11 months from checkout date, not check-in. People who were taking longer trips were at a disadvantage. Say I had a 7 day trip, then anybody having a shorter trip on same arrival day got a crack at the inventory before me. International guests especially despised this old system as they typically booked longer trips.
The reservation system was changed to what we have today, and created the ability to ‘walk’ as we see it today. It’s a much greater advantage than any possible ‘hacks’ the old system held. But many members prefer the current system, and are cautious that another change could upset things in unintended ways.
^This is one of many lengthy discussions around walking over the years
Yeah as we have discussed, the changing preferences of DVC members and/or those who rent from DVC members means studios are in higher demand than ever...it's probably best to book what you can get and then waitlist what you want. If they are walking, hopefully your waitlist will match sooner than later.
Genie+
You can never spend enough
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I hope DVC does act regarding walking. FCFS is supposed to be happening at 11 months. Members shouldn’t be shut out by the amount of activity happening 13 or 15 months out. That is not how the system was intended to work. I didn’t sign up to a vacation club that requires planning a trip 5 seasons prior to get your ‘equal’ shot.
There is so much going on in DVC that isn't how the system was intended to work. I share your hope that it gets cleaned up soon.
These comments are so wild to me and give the impression to new/potential owners that there’s never availability unless you walk.
Right now at 2PM ET, there’s just a handful of high demand/low supply rooms unavailable at 11 months. The only unavailable category is CCV grand villas. All other resorts have studios, 1BR, 2BRs and GV available. Even PVB tower duo studios are available.
It really is a studios problem. But since it seems that many new buyers are wanting studios it is something that they need to know.
Genie+
You can never spend enough
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Certain rooms and dates might as well not exist at 11 months for people who do not walk. They still have the opportunity to stalk and waitlist, but new/potential owners should be aware this strategy is possible within the current system so at least they are not misinterpreting 11m fcfs.
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UY has nothing to do with booking windows. No matter what your UY is, the window is the same.
The UY just determines which points you can use to book that trip.
Example…I want to go May 29th next year. My window opens June 29th.
I have three UYs…for my June UY, that trip is in my 2025 UY, and so I can use banked 2024, 2025, and borrow 2026 points to pay for
Correct. And just to add context…the statute wasn’t about being able to change how one defines the restriction…it’s just that any restriction that would be new is limited.
See my earlier post.
drusba
I went to Iowa once, and it was closed.
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- 14,862
Responses to some things raised above:
BVTC's Supposed Power to Affect Rental Rights.
The powers BVTC has are those in the applicable DVC Resort Agreement for a DVC Resort. Prior to CFW, such agreements never gave BVTC any right to even deal with a member's rentals of DVC rooms. That it can make modifications to those DVC Resort Agreements that may affect a member's ability to make reservations or rent does not mean it can do anything to change the rental rights a member has under the declarations. It could make changes that could affect such rights, such as add a new DVC Resort to the existing DVC Resorts and thus add a large number of new members who would be competing for reservations at all resorts at 7-months out, but the pre-CFW DVC Resort Agreements give it no power to deal with any DVC room rental issues.
Mid-2000's Creation of the 20-Reservation Rule.
Beginning about 2003, some serious rental issues developed, particularly as the internet became more popular and allowed members to readily find persons to whom to rent via creating internet sites to do so. Particularly impacted were studios for time in the Fall season -- late Sep to marathon weekend in Jan -- for holidays and for much of that time when nightly point costs were less than other times of year, particularly the first two weeks of Dec whichad the lowest point per night costs of the year. There were members who basically created rental businesses that that did many spec reservations for those popular times and then rented them through the internet. Reservations at the time were done via phone with MS. Also, the booking rule was that one could reserve beginning 11/7 months out from date of departure from a DVC Resort not date of arrival. Walking as we know it today did not develop as a result, but those members would do pseudo-walks by starting to make one-day reservations and then adding another day daily shortly before the desired reservation times and thus, ultimately, accomplis getting a number of reservations for high demand times for such rooms as BWV standard view studios before the usual members would reserve at 11-mopnths out from date of departure.
Members were limited at the time to owning no more than 2,000 points at any one resort and 5,000 total. Nevertheless, there were members who developed rental business that could actually do rentals with a much larger number of points.There were members who acted together as partnerships to raise the number of rentals they could do. Moreover, there were two rules that allowed a number of members to create businesses doing a lot more rentals with a lot more points. First any member could transfer in any use year, either in or out of the member's account but not both, an unlimited number of points. Thus, the professional renters could make deals with many other members, who likely did not even want to do rentals themselves, to transfer points to a professional renter. Second, the rules allowed any member to become an "Associate Member" of other members' accounts. Such associate members had the power to make reservations, and thus also rentals, with another members points.
Beginning in 2007, DVD/DVC, in response to a large number of complaints by members, began to take steps to deal with the problem. At the time, and thereafter continuing through the creation of CCV, the "Personal Use" definition expressly included a member's right to rent to lessees who used the rooms for vacation purposes. Such rentals became an improper "commercial purpose" only if the member was engaging in a pattern of rental activity that the association could reasonably conclude constituted a commercial enterprise or practice. A "commercial enterprise" is a legal terms used in many cases and statutes to mean a person or entity that is actually in the business of doing something to make profits. DVD/DVC created the 20-reservation-per-year rule that prevented the member from making more reservations in the year unless the member showed the reservations already made were not rentals, and the penalty was loss of the 21st and after rentals, not any of the first 20 if a violation were found. DVC then also created the one-transfer-per-year-rule (which had actually been the rule when DVC was created), and a rule that limited a member to being an Associate Member of no more than four other members' accounts.
None of those rules were formerly added to the resorts' declarations They were used to stop a number of the professional renters from doing large numbers of reservations. No one made a legal-case challenge to the new rules and it is thus unknown whether it would have been found to be legally valid. However, what appears from a lot of posts I have seen in this thread, is that many do not realize that the rules created in the mid-2,000's actually show DVD/DVC's own admission, which can later be used against it in any litigation, that DVD/DVC itself believed the "Personal Use" section rules in all the pre-Riviera declarations allowed a member to do a lot of rentals. Moreover, the 20 reservation rule created could actually be considered a higher limit than 20, because a member could become an Associate Member of 4 other members' accounts and do rentals from each, which rentals would be charged to the applicable member's account and not the associate member's account.
And then there is the construction rule that would be applicable in any litigation between a member and DVD/DVC if there were a legal action. Disney and its lawyers prepared and drafted all the terms in the POS, including those defining Personal Use, Commercial Purpose, and what is required for finding a violation by a member who is doing rentals. Member purchasers could not negotiate different terms.The rule followed by courts in that situation, when the terms at issue can be considered ambiguous, is that the little guy (the member) will win if the member's position is considered reasonable even if the big guy (DVD/DVC) has a differing position that is also reasonable, and that rule is particularly followed relating to disputes involving rights that should be favored, as the Florida courts do as to one's right to rent real property that one owns.
Walking
The June 2025 rule does not say anything about walking and to assume that language which says it is improper to commit fraud in doing reservations does away with walking is not correct, including because DVC is not ever going to publicly claim its many thousands of members who do walking are committing fraud.
Condo Ruiles Versus HOA Rules.
It is pointed out that the Homeowners Association Rules in section 720 of the Florida Statutes allow an association to make binding changes to rental rules that all must follow if the change is for 6-month or less rental periods. Arguably that may be true for CFW, which is not a condominium resort, but as to all the other DVC Resorts, the condominium law, §718, and the timeshare law §720, apply, including §718.110(13) that requires member votes on rental right changes that may reduce the number of times a member can rent, and provides that members who vote against the changes are not bound to follow them even if passed.
BVTC's Supposed Power to Affect Rental Rights.
The powers BVTC has are those in the applicable DVC Resort Agreement for a DVC Resort. Prior to CFW, such agreements never gave BVTC any right to even deal with a member's rentals of DVC rooms. That it can make modifications to those DVC Resort Agreements that may affect a member's ability to make reservations or rent does not mean it can do anything to change the rental rights a member has under the declarations. It could make changes that could affect such rights, such as add a new DVC Resort to the existing DVC Resorts and thus add a large number of new members who would be competing for reservations at all resorts at 7-months out, but the pre-CFW DVC Resort Agreements give it no power to deal with any DVC room rental issues.
Mid-2000's Creation of the 20-Reservation Rule.
Beginning about 2003, some serious rental issues developed, particularly as the internet became more popular and allowed members to readily find persons to whom to rent via creating internet sites to do so. Particularly impacted were studios for time in the Fall season -- late Sep to marathon weekend in Jan -- for holidays and for much of that time when nightly point costs were less than other times of year, particularly the first two weeks of Dec whichad the lowest point per night costs of the year. There were members who basically created rental businesses that that did many spec reservations for those popular times and then rented them through the internet. Reservations at the time were done via phone with MS. Also, the booking rule was that one could reserve beginning 11/7 months out from date of departure from a DVC Resort not date of arrival. Walking as we know it today did not develop as a result, but those members would do pseudo-walks by starting to make one-day reservations and then adding another day daily shortly before the desired reservation times and thus, ultimately, accomplis getting a number of reservations for high demand times for such rooms as BWV standard view studios before the usual members would reserve at 11-mopnths out from date of departure.
Members were limited at the time to owning no more than 2,000 points at any one resort and 5,000 total. Nevertheless, there were members who developed rental business that could actually do rentals with a much larger number of points.There were members who acted together as partnerships to raise the number of rentals they could do. Moreover, there were two rules that allowed a number of members to create businesses doing a lot more rentals with a lot more points. First any member could transfer in any use year, either in or out of the member's account but not both, an unlimited number of points. Thus, the professional renters could make deals with many other members, who likely did not even want to do rentals themselves, to transfer points to a professional renter. Second, the rules allowed any member to become an "Associate Member" of other members' accounts. Such associate members had the power to make reservations, and thus also rentals, with another members points.
Beginning in 2007, DVD/DVC, in response to a large number of complaints by members, began to take steps to deal with the problem. At the time, and thereafter continuing through the creation of CCV, the "Personal Use" definition expressly included a member's right to rent to lessees who used the rooms for vacation purposes. Such rentals became an improper "commercial purpose" only if the member was engaging in a pattern of rental activity that the association could reasonably conclude constituted a commercial enterprise or practice. A "commercial enterprise" is a legal terms used in many cases and statutes to mean a person or entity that is actually in the business of doing something to make profits. DVD/DVC created the 20-reservation-per-year rule that prevented the member from making more reservations in the year unless the member showed the reservations already made were not rentals, and the penalty was loss of the 21st and after rentals, not any of the first 20 if a violation were found. DVC then also created the one-transfer-per-year-rule (which had actually been the rule when DVC was created), and a rule that limited a member to being an Associate Member of no more than four other members' accounts.
None of those rules were formerly added to the resorts' declarations They were used to stop a number of the professional renters from doing large numbers of reservations. No one made a legal-case challenge to the new rules and it is thus unknown whether it would have been found to be legally valid. However, what appears from a lot of posts I have seen in this thread, is that many do not realize that the rules created in the mid-2,000's actually show DVD/DVC's own admission, which can later be used against it in any litigation, that DVD/DVC itself believed the "Personal Use" section rules in all the pre-Riviera declarations allowed a member to do a lot of rentals. Moreover, the 20 reservation rule created could actually be considered a higher limit than 20, because a member could become an Associate Member of 4 other members' accounts and do rentals from each, which rentals would be charged to the applicable member's account and not the associate member's account.
And then there is the construction rule that would be applicable in any litigation between a member and DVD/DVC if there were a legal action. Disney and its lawyers prepared and drafted all the terms in the POS, including those defining Personal Use, Commercial Purpose, and what is required for finding a violation by a member who is doing rentals. Member purchasers could not negotiate different terms.The rule followed by courts in that situation, when the terms at issue can be considered ambiguous, is that the little guy (the member) will win if the member's position is considered reasonable even if the big guy (DVD/DVC) has a differing position that is also reasonable, and that rule is particularly followed relating to disputes involving rights that should be favored, as the Florida courts do as to one's right to rent real property that one owns.
Walking
The June 2025 rule does not say anything about walking and to assume that language which says it is improper to commit fraud in doing reservations does away with walking is not correct, including because DVC is not ever going to publicly claim its many thousands of members who do walking are committing fraud.
Condo Ruiles Versus HOA Rules.
It is pointed out that the Homeowners Association Rules in section 720 of the Florida Statutes allow an association to make binding changes to rental rules that all must follow if the change is for 6-month or less rental periods. Arguably that may be true for CFW, which is not a condominium resort, but as to all the other DVC Resorts, the condominium law, §718, and the timeshare law §720, apply, including §718.110(13) that requires member votes on rental right changes that may reduce the number of times a member can rent, and provides that members who vote against the changes are not bound to follow them even if passed.
Last edited:
tx911
Deliberately Obtuse
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2023
- Messages
- 2,181
Holy moly that takes me back. Don't you just love how the internet is "forever"?Just like this board is dissecting rentals, many others have delved as deeply into walking.
Both topics are a bit tricky. Unintended consequences are always a risk, so answering one thing might end up opening a different can of worms. Plus there is concern that changes might reduce the flexibility/value for us members.
In the earlier days of DVC, reservations were made 11 months from checkout date, not check-in. People who were taking longer trips were at a disadvantage. Say I had a 7 day trip, then anybody having a shorter trip on same arrival day got a crack at the inventory before me. International guests especially despised this old system as they typically booked longer trips.
The reservation system was changed to what we have today, and created the ability to ‘walk’ as we see it today. It’s a much greater advantage than any possible ‘hacks’ the old system held. But many members prefer the current system, and are cautious that another change could upset things in unintended ways.
^This is one of many lengthy discussions around walking over the years
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2008
- Messages
- 45,721
And many would say that will always be the case even without walking.
Not to say walking should not be stopped if they can do it without further consequences….and after a weigh in by another poster who I respect…it probably is a stretch DVc would use that clause.
But, no one should buy AKV for value or CL. Or any of the resorts with hard to get rooms expecting they will get them.
Genie+
You can never spend enough
- Joined
- May 12, 2022
- Messages
- 5,165
Where UY comes in to play with walking is crossing over. Depending on the target booking date and the UY a member holds, UY may complicate things.
I have a Sept UY which works well with walks for December target dates. I can take a 3 month flying leap into my December dates with all my available points whether they are current, banked or borrowed because I am staying within that particular UY.
If I had a Dec UY… I would not be able to move any banked or borrowed points used initially to start that Dec target date walk in Nov, Oct, Sept, etc. Even the points that were current when the initial walk started would need to get banked for the ability to apply on those Dec target dates.
I have a Sept UY which works well with walks for December target dates. I can take a 3 month flying leap into my December dates with all my available points whether they are current, banked or borrowed because I am staying within that particular UY.
If I had a Dec UY… I would not be able to move any banked or borrowed points used initially to start that Dec target date walk in Nov, Oct, Sept, etc. Even the points that were current when the initial walk started would need to get banked for the ability to apply on those Dec target dates.
Mouseforward
Mouseketeer
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2024
- Messages
- 289
On this my guide was very honest - he told me not to expect a tower duo at RIV every year, and to plan to buy enough points that you could stay in a PV studio , and then try for the tower or RV studio.
I ended up buying 250 points since the deal was so good but it was good advice. Of course now I tend to grab 2br and take family so I may need to grab another 150 if a good deal comes up near sell out.
Judique
Dis Veteran, Beach Lover at BWV, BCV, HHI, VB
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2003
- Messages
- 13,224
I have an October use year and I have tried to start a walk to December. Crossing points over doesn't apply as I never have any points in the previous use year as I tend to stay borrowed ahead.
So far no luck with walking for me (December). Couldn't get started. Other reservations I've been able to make are pretty straight forward and don't require walking.
Let me sum up the next 10 pages before they happen- if you walk, you're ok with members walking. If you commercially rent, you're ok with members commercially renting, to the exact amount of points you have (if you have 500 points, you're ok with commercial renters with 500 points, but not 600). The contract says blah blah blah, but really it's up to DVC, sue if you can afford to, but good luck winning, walkers are human beings and have feelings too, they need a trip to celebrate Aunt May's last birthday and it's more important than your spring break trip, all you were promised is a bed...I think that's most of it.
tx911
Deliberately Obtuse
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2023
- Messages
- 2,181
mkatsy
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 20, 2023
- Messages
- 553
And … “all those randos in my room are my cousins - fight me!”
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