DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[AstroBlasters]

I own 100 BW , 100 Poly, and 250 RIV direct -

Much much less than most of you on this forum. In fact I am frequently, (and currently) in a borrowed and out of points situation as I go to WDW 2- 3 weeks in a year, then take a year off to maximize my AP.

And yet I have had to rent my points - once for a late cancel as I mentioned, And this year I am renting 25 borrowed points since I forgot that the borrowed poly points would screw me if the waitlist came through (but who though a 7 day BC studio would open up for a week in May)

I just blew a hole in your theory that only people who are commercial renters care about this- It turns out that many of us think beyond themselves are are genuinely concerned for the DVC product as a member. I think that the availability to rent is a positive for the DVC product. Many members have bad years at jobs , change jobs and have no vacation to use the points , have partners get sick and need to stay home... the list goes on. What I don't want is people who are butthurt that they did not get the rare room class ( that is a 1/50 shot on a good day ) mucking up the program.

Narcissist’s don’t care about anyone else. They only care about themselves and will disregard, dismiss, or diminish anything that doesn’t align with their pre-determined narrative.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Yes. I saw and posted a comment after that my excitement got the best of me and my analysis was a leap!

I did add a note to my initial post that it wasn’t new and maybe I jumped the gun.

Didn’t delete it though since it sparked conversation.

I’ve mentioned that I trust that posters legal analysis so definitely her take would be the correct one!!

Didn’t mean to seem like a troll!!! lol

I read it as you accusing people who walk reservations of committing “fraudulent or misleading activities”…. that’s a pretty big statement from a moderator….

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

It turns out that many of us think beyond themselves are are genuinely concerned for the DVC product as a member. I think that the availability to rent is a positive for the DVC product.

Well, this is a bit of a disingenuous and self righteous take. Your opinion is that not curbing the rental problem is better for the product because what about if you need to rent every point you have for years on end at sometime in the future, while others believe that this toxic environment that has gone unchecked is damaging the current product for everyone. Neither is technically wrong. You’re thinking about what problems future you might fall into so want free rein to rent, others are thinking about what problems members are currently dealing with. It hasn’t been a problem for you, so leave it. That’s the opposite of thinking about the product or other members.

And anyway, it’s already mucked up, I’d rather them try to address it than leave it to become absolutely untenable. Legally (and something we all understand well, as has been repeated by pretty much by everyone), renting is allowed and cannot be taken away from owners. No one is realistically asking for that level of a change, nor would it be allowed even if someone did. But if you can’t see there’s a major problem negatively effecting the CURRENT product, not the future of the product you’re worried about, then I’m not sure how to come to terms with this as members. Good thing DVC is dealing with it and not us with our limited knowledge and data since they’ve clearly heard enough noise from members (and yes, likely have also noticed the loss of revenue in their own sales and bookings) to realize the problem is real, not just a few butt hurt folks in this tiny corner of the internet.

DVC hasn’t addressed walking or egregious renting yet because it hasn’t been much of a problem until recent years. Everyone continues to ignore the sentiment repeated by many that have said the ability to book rooms in their home resort period that were once easy, are now impossible. It wasn’t always like this. Hmm wonder why?

And so because you’re a small family or can’t afford 1bdrm+ pts you should be punished because commercial renters need to make their money over everything? Renting has become an incredibly lucrative and ubiquitous business and it affects the small, unaware guys first and most. You’re certainly not thinking about them.

Most people use the vast majority of their points for their own vacations and rent precious few, and likely most, if not all of those rentals are considered personal use, too. Like in your case. The bulk of our focus should be on protecting that experience, not those who want to rent to pay their dues. And before you come at me, again, I’m not talking about renting for emergencies or whatever rare reason a person needs to rent once in a while. Before we get lost in those weeds for another 10pgs, no one wants to stop occasional renting for personal use, stop acting like that’s what we’re asking for.

 

[Sandisw]

I read it as you accusing people who walk reservations of committing “fraudulent or misleading activities”…. that’s a pretty big statement from a moderator….

No, it was that the language of misleading…never tied it ever to fraudulent….could be used by DVC as justification to cancel or modify a reservation walked.

We know, and the board admitted that walking violates the spirit of the rule…so, misleading IMO…sort of fits. We all know I am a big one of finding language to back up my opinions, right or wrong, and I initially felt this backed up the position that the contract does prohibit it.

It was pointed out it wasn’t new and not what I initially thought and after her post today, I posted I obviously read to much into it. It was never intended to offend.

 

[Sandisw]

Just a note to everyone....the post I made yesterday regarding walking....I apologize for getting ahead of myself and posting my opinions....which I didn't make clear were that....in tying the language of misleading to walking and DVC using it as a justification to cancel.

Once people pointed out there own opinions. and most importantly, it wasn't new, I tried to soften the stance. My initial thoughts were to leave the post to keep the context, but I have decided to delete it, and all reference to it, especially when @drusba weighed in, so not to cause future confusion or for anyone to think I was calling anyone who did it committing fraud.

I have officially warned myself.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Well, this is a bit of a disingenuous and self righteous take. Your opinion is that not curbing the rental problem is better for the product because what about if you need to rent every point you have for years on end at sometime in the future, while others believe that this toxic environment that has gone unchecked is damaging the current product for everyone. Neither is technically wrong. You’re thinking about what problems future you might fall into so want free rein to rent, others are thinking about what problems members are currently dealing with. It hasn’t been a problem for you, so leave it. That’s the opposite of thinking about the product or other members.

And anyway, it’s already mucked up, I’d rather them try to address it than leave it to become absolutely untenable. Legally (and something we all understand well, as has been repeated by pretty much by everyone), renting is allowed and cannot be taken away from owners. No one is realistically asking for that level of a change, nor would it be allowed even if someone did. But if you can’t see there’s a major problem negatively effecting the CURRENT product, not the future of the product you’re worried about, then I’m not sure how to come to terms with this as members. Good thing DVC is dealing with it and not us with our limited knowledge and data since they’ve clearly heard enough noise from members (and yes, likely have also noticed the loss of revenue in their own sales and bookings) to realize the problem is real, not just a few butt hurt folks in this tiny corner of the internet.

DVC hasn’t addressed walking or egregious renting yet because it hasn’t been much of a problem until recent years. Everyone continues to ignore the sentiment repeated by many that have said the ability to book rooms in their home resort period that were once easy, are now impossible. It wasn’t always like this. Hmm wonder why?

And so because you’re a small family or can’t afford 1bdrm+ pts you should be punished because commercial renters need to make their money over everything? Renting has become an incredibly lucrative and ubiquitous business and it affects the small, unaware guys first and most. You’re certainly not thinking about them.

Most people use the vast majority of their points for their own vacations and rent precious few, and likely most, if not all of those rentals are considered personal use, too. Like in your case. The bulk of our focus should be on protecting that experience, not those who want to rent to pay their dues. And before you come at me, again, I’m not talking about renting for emergencies or whatever rare reason a person needs to rent once in a while. Before we get lost in those weeds for another 10pgs, no one wants to stop occasional renting for personal use, stop acting like that’s what we’re asking for.

But there are people arguing against occasional renting for personal use or emergencies….

I also don’t think this impacts the overwhelming majority of owners. It impacts owners at a few resorts who want studios. This is not some sort of existential crisis for the system.

Now, as someone who wants BW 2 bedrooms…. I see the issue first hand with the SV and BV studios because that also eliminates owners ability to get 2 bedrooms….

I’m hopeful that some enhanced enforcement against true commercial renters, commercial renting groups (FB), and spec renting frees up enough capacity so that disenchanted owners feel they have a fighting chance with the hard to get rooms.

 

[Sandisw]

Well, this is a bit of a disingenuous and self righteous take. Your opinion is that not curbing the rental problem is better for the product because what about if you need to rent every point you have for years on end at sometime in the future, while others believe that this toxic environment that has gone unchecked is damaging the current product for everyone. Neither is technically wrong. You’re thinking about what problems future you might fall into so want free rein to rent, others are thinking about what problems members are currently dealing with. It hasn’t been a problem for you, so leave it. That’s the opposite of thinking about the product or other members.

And anyway, it’s already mucked up, I’d rather them try to address it than leave it to become absolutely untenable. Legally (and something we all understand well, as has been repeated by pretty much by everyone), renting is allowed and cannot be taken away from owners. No one is realistically asking for that level of a change, nor would it be allowed even if someone did. But if you can’t see there’s a major problem negatively effecting the CURRENT product, not the future of the product you’re worried about, then I’m not sure how to come to terms with this as members. Good thing DVC is dealing with it and not us with our limited knowledge and data since they’ve clearly heard enough noise from members (and yes, likely have also noticed the loss of revenue in their own sales and bookings) to realize the problem is real, not just a few butt hurt folks in this tiny corner of the internet.

DVC hasn’t addressed walking or egregious renting yet because it hasn’t been much of a problem until recent years. Everyone continues to ignore the sentiment repeated by many that have said the ability to book rooms in their home resort period that were once easy, are now impossible. It wasn’t always like this. Hmm wonder why?

And so because you’re a small family or can’t afford 1bdrm+ pts you should be punished because commercial renters need to make their money over everything? Renting has become an incredibly lucrative and ubiquitous business and it affects the small, unaware guys first and most. You’re certainly not thinking about them.

Most people use the vast majority of their points for their own vacations and rent precious few, and likely most, if not all of those rentals are considered personal use, too. Like in your case. The bulk of our focus should be on protecting that experience, not those who want to rent to pay their dues. And before you come at me, again, I’m not talking about renting for emergencies or whatever rare reason a person needs to rent once in a while. Before we get lost in those weeds for another 10pgs, no one wants to stop occasional renting for personal use, stop acting like that’s what we’re asking for.

To be fair, though, its comments like "if you don't see there is a major problem" that can bring us out of productive debate.

The hard part about this is that people view the current rental market differently, and what rules are reasonable for DVC to adpot. ...which is the standard owners with pre-RIV contracts are entitled to have, when deciding that someone is doing it for commerical purpose.

It is certainly evident that there are some owners out there, including those who might own resale businesses, who appear to have thousands of points and are renting in numbers that clearly should be seen by DVC as a violation of the "not for commercial purpose clause" And I would say 100% of everyone agrees these people exist and should be dealt with.

However, many of us also believe that the majority of rentals being offered are being offered by owners who are renting at a level that is in line with our right to rent....which, for us, does not mean only in emergencies...

Obviously, only DVC knows what % of members are truly renting at levels that are unacceptable. And, they should enforce the rules against those owners...

But, many of us simply don't want them to make rules so limiting that they are going after owners for renting, for a variety of acceptable reasons, simply because the market has gotten too large.

Its the same with availabilty.....things have gotten more difficult but everyone doesn't have to agree with why....spec renting, demand, DVCs own actions, etc. could all be playing a role.

What we should all want is for DVC to do what they are required to do. Set reasonable thresholds and metrics for renting reservations on our membership and go after those owners who are clearly renting for commercial purposes and not vacations.