DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[VGCgroupie]

It seems that DVC has only just started to take a look at renting because interest in the parks and experiences has cooled. Nothing has really changed with renting. DVC owners have complained about the big time brokers snapping up all the in-demand room types and seasons for years now. Sales of new resorts have slowed, even on the monorail loop. DCL is even discounting cruises now. The revenge travel bubble is officially over, at least as far as Disney is concerned.

I think it's been in the works for awhile. This isn't something they can just implement right away because you are seeing a slow in sales. They had to put in place protocols and potentially a computer tracking system and the legal aspect of it Im sure was analyzed thoroughly as well.

 

[Sandisw]

It seems that DVC has only just started to take a look at renting because interest in the parks and experiences has cooled. Nothing has really changed with renting. DVC owners have complained about the big time brokers snapping up all the in-demand room types and seasons for years now. Sales of new resorts have slowed, even on the monorail loop. DCL is even discounting cruises now. The revenge travel bubble is officially over, at least as far as Disney is concerned.

They did say in December at the meeting they would be actively dealing with it.

The first step was the change to the transfer rules. Now, they have this.

It seems to me they took the past 6 months to work on it and now we wait to see reports of any enforcement.

 

[JackosinDIS]

Again, renting any reservation is going to create a profit.

That is not the standard with the contract. The standard is whether renting is happening in such a way that DVC has decided the purpose of that membership is more commercial than personal.

And, we know that some level of renting is allowed within the personal use clause.

So, where is DVC going to draw the line? Are they going to look at that 1000 point owner who may be renting 500 points every year to pay for the dues and thus vacation for free and an owners whose reason for owning is commercial?

We know that using it for yourself and others at the same time…multiple reservations… counts as personal use …letting family and friends use it occasionally without you…counts as personal use .

We know that frequent and regular renting or sale of reservations is not considered personal use.

What rises to the level of frequent and regular is up to DVC.

They could say that frequent and regular is based on a three year cycle. They could make it a % of ones membership…it could be something none of us even think of.

That’s why the whole world “profit” is tough in this discussion because if the law and the contract allow for at least some rental….then anyone who rents even one reservation has made some.

DVCs own words imply they are not looking at profit per se but rather the frequency and regularity in which they see an owner booking for others.

ETA: To me it’s like having a garage sale. If I have every weekend, then I’m doing it as a business. If I have one occasionally, I am not.

I think profit does need to be taken in to consideration.

I think of it this way - if you make a profit it does not necessarily make a rental commercial, as per your examples above.

However, if there is no money changing hands, no matter how frequent or regular the rentals are, Disney cannot possible argue that this constitutes ‘commercial’ use (I.e. in the business of making a profit from something).

The number of rentals does not tell the whole story necessarily. Disney can infer that frequent rentals = making money to the extent it is a business, but they will have to take other factors in to account.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

They can cancel the reservations made for non-owners above a threshold. Whether you use the points or not would be up to you. They can’t force you to sell.

Actually they can. That's been in the documents since at least 2008, and likely since inception of the program.

 

[sethschroeder]

This. Many people have asked for my advice on DVC, and I've dissuaded them from buying. They think that it'll be easy to book the rooms they've rented/reserved in the past and I tell them that it's very difficult to get the rooms they desire. I don't know if these changes will make things much easier, but this is a great point.

What are you booking that is hard to get? AK-Value or Club?

If you need something very specific then you walk it otherwise if you are a little flexible then you likely can get in to something you are happy with as well, possibly even at 7 months or inside of 7 months.

Unless DVC addresses walking then any reservation can be had easily outside of possibly those AK rooms outlined. Even waitlist and stalking though isn't bad and can get you rooms after the first bookings.

I always thought though getting Virtual Queue was super easy though and others thought it was rocket science. So maybe people just have a harder time using the system to its fullest.

I agree with letting them know they need to plan ahead but I wouldn't call anything very difficult unless they buy SSR wanting to get rooms at 7 months all the time just buy where you want to stay.

 

[sethschroeder]

I think profit does need to be taken in to consideration.

Will never be taken in to account as they can't verify that.

What they can see is a high number of new people each time (possibly people with the same name that rented through someone else last year). They can also see when people modify reservations that are already booked.

If you are randomly doing a couple bookings for people (even if you have them pay you) you are going to be fine. If you have a large number of 1 or 2 day bookings, lots of new names (no same last names), and you often are changing the lead guest name.... Well then you are likely directly a target.

 

[JackosinDIS]

Will never be taken in to account as they can't verify that.

What they can see is a high number of new people each time (possibly people with the same name that rented through someone else last year). They can also see when people modify reservations that are already booked.

If you are randomly doing a couple bookings for people (even if you have them pay you) you are going to be fine. If you have a large number of 1 or 2 day bookings, lots of new names (no same last names), and you often are changing the lead guest name.... Well then you are likely directly a target.

Totally agree they could never take profit in to account in practice.

And you are right that they will just use other factors to infer that there is a profit being made.

I don’t think this is a bad approach… as long as they are required to act reasonably and not at their absolute discretion as the new terms state.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Actually they can. That's been in the documents since at least 2008, and likely since inception of the program.

Ok… I anmend to “unlikely to force someone to sell”.

 

[mistysue]

What are you booking that is hard to get? AK-Value or Club?

If you need something very specific then you walk it otherwise if you are a little flexible then you likely can get in to something you are happy with as well, possibly even at 7 months or inside of 7 months.

Unless DVC addresses walking then any reservation can be had easily outside of possibly those AK rooms outlined. Even waitlist and stalking though isn't bad and can get you rooms after the first bookings.

I always thought though getting Virtual Queue was super easy though and others thought it was rocket science. So maybe people just have a harder time using the system to its fullest.

I agree with letting them know they need to plan ahead but I wouldn't call anything very difficult unless they buy SSR wanting to get rooms at 7 months all the time just buy where you want to stay.

Right this moment, if I try to book a room 11 months out, just over 24% of the room types are unavailable. (30/123)

When I bought 8 years ago it was treated as common knowledge that you can basically get anything but those 2 room types at AKL at 9-10 months or so, and some start to fill up but most things would even still be available at 7 months for bouncing around. The number of owners within single resorts has not gone up enough to cause a change. The 7 months issue is absolutely explainable by new resorts. 11 month? Not explained by "more owners" when looking at resorts that have been sold out for years. Walking, which separately is an issue, is one of those issues that comes up due to difficulty and like the renting thing snowballs a small, inconsistent issue, into a constant one. The more people who have trouble, the more people who walk, which causes more walking, etc.

As of now, 30 different room types, across 9 different resorts, are completely off limits 11 months out. That is not what it was a decade ago. People are complaining that it has gotten worse because it has gotten worse. I mean we own 4 resorts because we used the points from the first to try out the other 3 and then bought in... all three of those rooms we stayed in to test out those resorts, I couldn't book today at 11 months- I sure as heck wouldn't have gotten a 5-6 nights at 7 months.

 

[tx911]

I would just reiterate that the only thing that has happened is a checkbox and I think we don't need to worry about anything yet.

You know they’re measuring how long you hesitate before checking that box though

 

[VGCgroupie]

You know they’re measuring how long you hesitate before checking that box though

Or how many times you check it, then uncheck it, then check it

 

[dcfromva]

You know they’re measuring how long you hesitate before checking that box though

But, seriously, if you are required to check the box in order to make a reservation - I'm not sure what the check box does.

 

[petrola]

How many room types are not available at 11m out from today?

I just went and looked at it 27 room types (with a lot of those being 2 bedroom lockoffs being double counted where a dedicated 2 bedroom was available).

This is mainly a low inventory studio problem at a handful of resorts created by point charts.

Are these rooms really the reason that most buyers are buying into DVC? If so, then IMO maybe DVC ownership shouldn’t be for them.

I'm going to agree with this. We travel during peak times (kids school schedule). Never really have too much trouble booking the weeks before and/or after Easter.

The difference between the lowest (16 pts) and highest points (32 pts) needed for the same room at different times of the year (taking VGF resort view studio as an example) is double - while the rack rates do not reflect that same variance.

I think point charts are driving some of this "unavailability" people talk about and need to be recast. In other words, are the "low point" rooms driving too much demand because they are "too low"?

Idk, maybe increase points for the first week of December - where there seems to be much competition for rooms. Or don't make the points so low on "standard view" rooms as opposed to "garden view" (or whatever the categories are going to be for next year). I totally understand increasing points on desireable views and peak travel times, but some of these differences seems a bit extreme.

Maybe if the variances were less extreme, demand would even out?

 

[muppets3d]

I think it's been in the works for awhile. This isn't something they can just implement right away because you are seeing a slow in sales. They had to put in place protocols and potentially a computer tracking system and the legal aspect of it Im sure was analyzed thoroughly as well.

No I didn't mean to suggest they decided to do something on Monday and we see the result today. Obviously this has been in the works for months.

 

[VGCgroupie]

But, seriously, if you are required to check the box in order to make a reservation - I'm not sure what the check box does.

In all this madness talk I honestly didnt even think about that... so hmm... yeah I am perplexed. I guess you have to check in order to book and then Disney can use that as a way to show violation of agreeing to terms? Hmmmm. I mean it doesnt effect me so I wont spend too much time thinking about it though.

 

[scottvertanen]

Personally, I have no issue with members renting out their points, whether through DVC rental sites or on their own. In fact, I've done this myself. However, my concern is directly about the numerous "Confirmed Rentals" listings available on many platforms. These listings often consist of short stays at desirable resorts and times, restricting availability for those seeking longer/ week-long vacations. This scenario creates an imbalance, making it difficult for members to secure longer reservations.

For example, I've observed that listings on DVC RS, such as a 1-Bedroom Savanna view at AK-K, are priced at rates nearing direct reservations with Disney. This discrepancy encourages individuals to exploit the system by securing multiple reservations with no real intent to use them, further limiting access for others.

To create a fairer booking environment, I suggest eliminating or regulating the "Confirmed Reservations" listings process in favor of promoting rentals through the existing "Claim Open Listing" process. This change would help level the playing field, allowing for equitable access to reservations as it was intended.

 

[DougEMG]

All of us have different opinions of what should and should not count…which is why DVC didint define commercial.

They get to review each membership using their own metrics and then make decisions from there.

The problem I have to this very loose definition is that DVC has proven in the past that they can not be trusted to play by the rules nor do what is in the members best interests if it goes against their own interests. Examples of which are points reallocations of the SSR treehouses to studios; that should not have been legal because they are in different units and points can't be changed across units, yet most members didn't complain so they got away with it. The reallocation of points on lock-off rooms which they did role back but only after much complaining from members here.

 

[muppets3d]

I'm going to agree with this. We travel during peak times (kids school schedule). Never really have too much trouble booking the weeks before and/or after Easter.

The difference between the lowest (16 pts) and highest points (32 pts) needed for the same room (taking VGF resort view studio as an example) is double - while the rack rates do not reflect that same variance.

I think point charts are driving some of this "unavailability" people talk about and need to be recast. In other words, are the "low point" rooms driving too much demand because they are "too low"?

Idk, maybe increase points for the first week of December - where there seems to be much competition for rooms. Or don't make the points so low on "standard view" rooms as opposed to "garden view" (or whatever the categories are going to be for next year). I totally understand increasing points on desireable views and peak travel times, but some of these differences seems a bit extreme.

Maybe if they were more evenly cast, demand would even out?

It makes DVC sound like a scam but to increase the enjoyment of timeshare, just buy more timeshare. If you have enough points to book 1 bedroom or larger villas, you can sleep soundly and pretty much never have to worry about availability. It's only people who want to stay in studios that have all these issues with availability. Obviously because they're lower in points, but possibly also because that's what is rented most and so that's what brokers book most. Once all the brokers are out of the system we'll see how demand settles in. This will take months to years to fully shake out though.

 

[Pluto777]

bump.

 

[Cfabar1]

My view is renting is great to know it is available for you, but it isn’t the primary aim of the program. If your desire is to invest in Disney, go buy Disney stock. If your desire is to take vacations, buy Disney Vacation Club… In 2027, we have some other travel planned… I could see making the decision not to go to DVC, as much as we love it, and instead rent out the points to defray our other travel expenses or at least cover our dues…

I think there are lots of different problems intersecting… i.e. dealing with spec renting isn’t going to solve the availability of Concierge rooms at AK… That won’t be solved short of building more rooms at club level…

I also have to say, maybe it is my own personal experience, but I have yet to have issues booking at 11 months. Everything I am looking for seems to be available.

7 months can be a little trickier, especially for a longer stay.