DVC resale, possible ROFR?

Originally posted by RuthnPaul
Perhaps there is absolutely no connection that several people reported they did not pass ROFR on the very same day that Disney implemented a new pricing/procedure policy for add-ons, but perhaps there is. It will be interesting to see what shakes out over the next weeks and months.

Ah now here, we agree! ::yes:: We'll have to keep an eye on the boards and an ear to the ground and see what transpires in these next few weeks. If there is indeed a trend it will surface.

And if you're right and Disney snaps up lots of resales suddenly I guess I'll consider myself lucky I got in at a reasonable cost at the right time! :cool2: :cool1:
 
Sorry, maybe I was vague. Does the buyer pay a fee to submit to rofr? If so, how much? Also, if rofr is exercised do you get that money back? (This may seem elementary...but I am a newbe and trying to understand the whole process before buying.)
 
Originally posted by jandklumley
Sorry, maybe I was vague. Does the buyer pay a fee to submit to rofr? If so, how much? Also, if rofr is exercised do you get that money back? (This may seem elementary...but I am a newbe and trying to understand the whole process before buying.)
There is no fee to be paid for a contract to be presented to Disney for ROFR. If Disney does exercise ROFR, any deposit money is returned to the buyer. There is a "transfer fee" that is almost always paid by the seller. That fee is paid to Disney for them to transfer the points from the seller to the buyer.
 
Originally posted by Mike
I think you are dismissing the fact that DVC just raised their price for resales by $5. If contracts keep going to ROFR review at the same prices they were last week, it is only common sense that more of them are going to be bought by Disney. They have a waitlist of people willing to pay $89 so their profit margin has just increased by $5/pt - an increase of 40%. I think there is cause for concern. The demand is there and an attractive profit margin is now there as well.

Wait a minute, I am no math whiz but--a five dollar increase from $84/point to $89/point is not a 40% increase!! (A 40% increase would make the points more than $117/each!)

It's actually a little less than a 5% increase.
 

Originally posted by idratherbeinwdw
Wait a minute, I am no math whiz but--a five dollar increase from $84/point to $89/point is not a 40% increase!! (A 40% increase would make the points more than $117/each!)

It's actually a little less than a 5% increase.

It is a 40% increase in their PROFIT MARGIN. I assumed a gap of $12 (buy at $72 and sell at $84). Now they are selling at $89 - a 40% increase in profit margin
 
Originally posted by Mike
It is a 40% increase in their PROFIT MARGIN. I assumed a gap of $12 (buy at $72 and sell at $84). Now they are selling at $89 - a 40% increase in profit margin

OK I see what you're saying, but I am still not convinced that there will be more frequent exercise of ROFR based on that increase.

Time will tell.
 
This is how I see it (and I know you've all been waiting ::grin:: )

About 3 months ago, DVC changed the way they handled sold-out resorts, making it more difficult to buy these points. To me this indicated that DVC was less interested in these transactions, and therefore didn't exercise ROFR as often.

However, that seems to have changed. They increased the price per point to $89 and reinstated the more sales-friendly waiting list - and rumors suggest an increase in ROFR exercise.

Perhaps DVC saw the significant interest in non-SSR resorts and decided it was a revenue stream that Disney should be taking a bigger dip in.

IMHO, YMMV, EIEIO.
 
Originally posted by Mike
I think you are dismissing the fact that DVC just raised their price for resales by $5. If contracts keep going to ROFR review at the same prices they were last week, it is only common sense that more of them are going to be bought by Disney. They have a waitlist of people willing to pay $89

Actually that's not true for several reasons:

1. The waitlist was eliminated several months ago. Some of the guides may have their own notes to check daily for some of their past customers, but it's not as if a massive list exists with details on points that existing members are seeking.

2. People that were looking for points expected to pay $84 per point. It would be irresponsible to assume that demand at $84 would be equal to demand at $89.

In fact, for add-ons of 100 pts or more at SSR, DVC is currently offering a flat discount of $5 per point. Paying $1 more per point for SSR (and those extra 12 years) may suddenly seem a bit more enticing.


so their profit margin has just increased by $5/pt - an increase of 40%. I think there is cause for concern. The demand is there and an attractive profit margin is now there as well.

I don't know that it's fair to label that a "profit margin." "Gross revenue" might be a bit more appropriate. Profit can only be determined after the points have been sold and all costs are taken into account. If DVC is able to pick up a 150 pt contract at $70 and sell the entire contract again for $89, there will be a small profit after closing costs and other administrative fees. But, if those 150 pts end up going to 4 different members (25 pts here, 50 pts there), then you have 4 times the overhead (closing, admin) as in the first scenario.

However you slice it, selling small add-ons at the older resorts will never be a huge profit center for DVC. It's nice that they are able to accommodate DVC members, but the revenues will never compare to the $15k they get for every single minimum-point purchase at SSR.
 
Originally posted by tjkraz
Actually that's not true for several reasons:

1. The waitlist was eliminated several months ago. Some of the guides may have their own notes to check daily for some of their past customers, but it's not as if a massive list exists with details on points that existing members are seeking.

2. People that were looking for points expected to pay $84 per point. It would be irresponsible to assume that demand at $84 would be equal to demand at $89.

In fact, for add-ons of 100 pts or more at SSR, DVC is currently offering a flat discount of $5 per point. Paying $1 more per point for SSR (and those extra 12 years) may suddenly seem a bit more enticing.




I don't know that it's fair to label that a "profit margin." "Gross revenue" might be a bit more appropriate. Profit can only be determined after the points have been sold and all costs are taken into account. If DVC is able to pick up a 150 pt contract at $70 and sell the entire contract again for $89, there will be a small profit after closing costs and other administrative fees. But, if those 150 pts end up going to 4 different members (25 pts here, 50 pts there), then you have 4 times the overhead (closing, admin) as in the first scenario.

However you slice it, selling small add-ons at the older resorts will never be a huge profit center for DVC. It's nice that they are able to accommodate DVC members, but the revenues will never compare to the $15k they get for every single minimum-point purchase at SSR.

Actually I would argue the opposite. Remember they had to build SSR for that $15k. The margin on flipping ROFR purchases on sold out resorts is very real. Also, many think Disney pays closing costs like we do on a resale. They actually have staff doing this work and actual out of pocket is minimal. That's why the buyer is at risk for ROFR when the seller pays closing.
 
Originally posted by tjkraz
Actually that's not true for several reasons:

1. The waitlist was eliminated several months ago. Some of the guides may have their own notes to check daily for some of their past customers, but it's not as if a massive list exists with details on points that existing members are seeking.

Then how do you explain all of these posts where people are calling their guides and are being told how far down the list they are? According to the post about new procedures for buying addons there is now an official waitlist as 8/4. So the demand is there.

And while we can argue about whether it is gross revenue or profit or somewhere in between, the fact remains that Disney was selling addons before the price increase so one would assume that it was a profitable venture else why would they be doing it. So the $5 increase in the gap between propsed resales and the new price of $89 that DVC is charging is going to make it that much more of a profitable venture.

Given the demand and the increased profit, I maintain that it is much more likely that Disney will be exercising ROFR if the resale prices stay at current levels.
 
Originally posted by Mike
Then how do you explain all of these posts where people are calling their guides and are being told how far down the list they are? According to the post about new procedures for buying addons there is now an official waitlist as 8/4. So the demand is there.

The waitlist just came into being again on 8/4--when they made the process change. When the decision was made to change the add-on process again, there was no existing waitlist.

Sure, there is a waitlist now. But, since DVC did away with the waitlist a few months ago, and have subsequently raised the price, any projections of current demand are subjective.


And while we can argue about whether it is gross revenue or profit or somewhere in between, the fact remains that Disney was selling addons before the price increase so one would assume that it was a profitable venture else why would they be doing it. So the $5 increase in the gap between propsed resales and the new price of $89 that DVC is charging is going to make it that much more of a profitable venture.

Any my contention would be that the very reason DVC de-emphasized add-ons several months ago was because there was very little, if any, profit to be made on some contracts.

IMO, the sole reason for ROFR is to keep the gap between "new" points (SSR points) and the older resorts as narrow as possible. Certainly demand will set the price at SOME level. But DVC definitely cannot afford to have points changing hands--even at a resort like Vero--at some ridiculously low level like $40-50 each when they are trying to sell SSR at $95.

In a sense, DVC is compelled to accept points at their calculated ROFR levels to keep the market inflated to a level of their choosing. Once they have the points, they need to do something with them. Selling them to current members would be the logical


Given the demand and the increased profit, I maintain that it is much more likely that Disney will be exercising ROFR if the resale prices stay at current levels.

But aren't you disproving your own statements, here?

If DVC starts exercising ROFR at higher levels than in the past (a fact that I do NOT believe is necessarly true--a least in the long run), then they are eating into their own additional $5 "profit".

Additionally, if DVC does actually begin exercising ROFR at higher levels, it won't take long before the resale agents catch on to this and begin advocating price increases across the board. The purpose of the resale market is to put points in the hands of new members--not to funnel the points back to DVC at a price level of their choosing. If DVC increases their ROFR threshold, it will raise the market price across the board.

IMO, it is POSSIBLE that DVC is temporarily snatching a few of the lowest priced contracts in order to fill its coffers with points to feed some of the people on the waiting list. But as soon as they establish a pattern, resale prices will rise across the board and their steady stream of points will dry up. As of last night, I could find exactly two posts from people who recently lost contracts--one was a second-hand report, the other had the seller paying closing costs. Probably not the best evidence to support any change in ROFR on DVC's part.

Disagree if you wish. But, generally speaking, the best way to increase profit does not include actions which will raise expense AND revenue by similar increments.
 
Originally posted by mydogdrew
Remember they had to build SSR for that $15k. The margin on flipping ROFR purchases on sold out resorts is very real.

And that's based upon what evidence?

It's been said that marketing and sales costs can run 40% or more in the timeshare industry. Disney's expenses may be lower than that because their promotional programs are probably not as expensive as other organizations. Disney doesn't give you free theme park tickets for sitting through a presentation, nor do they offer heavily-discounted cash rates to get people to try-out the resort.

Nevertheless, it's not fair to simply assume that any dollar amount between DVC's acquisition at ROFR and their resale price is "profit". When you're budgeting for an organization, everything that it takes to run the business needs to be taken into account. The biggest expense here is likely wages and benefits, but there are also legal fees, filing fees, and a host of other costs to which we are not privy.

With regard to SSR, that's a sunk cost that DVC (actually DVD) has already incurred. Selling points there is the primary means of recouping that investment.

Besides, if you're saying that construction costs alone (the one factor that would differentiate SSR from any other "resale" resort) make up 76% ($72/95) of Disney's overhead in selling timeshares, then my response would be there is no way Disney would be selling timeshares.
 
Originally posted by tjkraz
But aren't you disproving your own statements, here?

If DVC starts exercising ROFR at higher levels than in the past (a fact that I do NOT believe is necessarly true--a least in the long run), then they are eating into their own additional $5 "profit".

Additionally, if DVC does actually begin exercising ROFR at higher levels, it won't take long before the resale agents catch on to this and begin advocating price increases across the board. The purpose of the resale market is to put points in the hands of new members--not to funnel the points back to DVC at a price level of their choosing. If DVC increases their ROFR threshold, it will raise the market price across the board.

IMO, it is POSSIBLE that DVC is temporarily snatching a few of the lowest priced contracts in order to fill its coffers with points to feed some of the people on the waiting list. But as soon as they establish a pattern, resale prices will rise across the board and their steady stream of points will dry up. As of last night, I could find exactly two posts from people who recently lost contracts--one was a second-hand report, the other had the seller paying closing costs. Probably not the best evidence to support any change in ROFR on DVC's part.

Disagree if you wish. But, generally speaking, the best way to increase profit does not include actions which will raise expense AND revenue by similar increments.


No I am not. My contention is that if resale prices remain constant, then ROFR will be exercised. All I am saying is the contracts that are in the pipeline now are at serious risk of being exercised IMHO. Obviously the market is going to correct. The cost of resales is going to have to increase to a point where it doesn't make sense for Disney to exercise ROFR. When this happens the increased profit will no longer be there and we will be back to the "state of equilibrium" that existed last week but at a corrected price per point.

And look again - there is now another post of ROFR being exercised by nuthut and another post quoting a guide that 2 BWV contracts were exercised yesterday. This was not happening before the price increase. Coincidence? I think not.
 
Originally posted by Mike
No I am not. My contention is that if resale prices remain constant, then ROFR will be exercised. All I am saying is the contracts that are in the pipeline now are at serious risk of being exercised IMHO.

On this point, I agree with you.


Obviously the market is going to correct. The cost of resales is going to have to increase to a point where it doesn't make sense for Disney to exercise ROFR. When this happens the increased profit will no longer be there and we will be back to the "state of equilibrium" that existed last week but at a corrected price per point.

But the "increased profit" was never there.

If DVC's old ROFR threshold (example only) was $68 and they were selling for $84, that's net revenue on the transaction of $16.

Now, if they are grabbing contracts at $72 and selling for $89, the revenue has lept all the way up to $17. Not exactly a 40% increase in revenue.

Those are obviously just ficticious numbers, but the point is that the $5 price increase can't be tagged with any label like "profit" when a significant amount of those dollars will also go toward offsetting additional expense.

At this point, I'd say one of two possibilities exist:

1. This is a one-time point grab by DVC to collect just about every contract in the pipeline at current prices and sell for $89 each, or

2. It's conceivable that when DVC changed reevaluated its add-on processes back in the Spring, they effective shut-down ROFR on all but the very cheapest contracts. Now they are simply ramping-up again, and grabbing contracts where people were really pushing even the previously-established limits.

I wouldn't say that I necessarily disagree with your argument other than I think this whole concept of "additional profit" may be a bit misguided. DVC clearly has their own models indicating the price levels necessary to make add-ons profitable. To say that adding $5 to the end price is the sole reason for more contracts being picked-up may or may not be accurate--rather both of these elements may simply be byproducts of a philosophical shift within DVC.
 
I wonder if DVD started matching names of resale buyers with those in their database that ordered the video or took the tour. So they were missing out on new potential customers who decided to go the resale route and pick up points for less $. Plus I'm sure they were getting a lot of inquiries from people wanting to buy/add-on existing resorts, especially BCV/BWV/WLV. (BTW, have they exercised any ROFR's lately on OKW/HH/VB?) Supply & demand and why shouldn't Disney be the supplier, especially if there's $ to be made.

That being said, I'm sure the $5 increase is to cover expenses of exercising more ROFR's and beaking them up into smaller contracts. Plus by excercising ROFR, they drive up the resale prices, which cuts further into the $5 increase in price.

Not to mention it is a selling point for SSR. Why buy for $89, when you can now get into SSR for $85, plus you get 12 extra years?

Probably, they'll be fewer people on the wait list for $89 than $84. But remember, if these people wanted just to add on 50-100 points, it's only another $250-500. If they wanted to pick up 150 or more @ $84, then they were willing to pay more (for whatever reason) than the resale market in the first place. So my thinking, however flawed it may be, it that it's not going to phase too many of the wait listers. In fact, they may even be happier because they'll be getting points quicker. Plus they don't have to worry about being subjected to ROFR.......
 












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