DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

[Shamus]

I would advise against rushing to do a show or publish any article until you receive a first-hand, official statement from Disney. Everything you are reading on these (mostly) anonymous boards is secondary source information. What you are proposing doing needs to be held to a much higher standard.

Any information shared about what Disney planned to do was accompanied with a request that this information not be shared publicly, and to allow for Disney an opportunity to message the change.

I suspect that message could very easily change as well as the policy they were planning if they lose control of the narrative which is exactly what is happening by virtue of this thread going where it has gone.

If you're going to broadcast this, get your facts straight. Reach out to Yvonne's office. Give Disney an opportunity to make an official statement. This unvetted thread should not be your primary source of information.

Are you seriously suggesting something along the lines of non-opinionated and responsible investigative journalism?
WOW - Such an antiquated concept!

In all seriousness thou - I 100% agree and fear that if not handled properly this could end up chasing Disney away from the negotiating table .....right when they were about to sign.

However, If the decision is made to proceed with such a show, I would also suggest possibly reordering the topics as follows:
A) What has been done. (Creation of Additional Seasons and The Bunny Hop).
B) How this creates excess points. (The Down and Dirty Math).
C) Why this is illegal (Season Creation and Point Creation against POS).
D) Ulterior Motives (Breakage) versus the Total Incompetence of DVC Management or combination of the two.
E) Pete goes on his biggest DVC RANT to date!

JMHO

 

[zavandor]

This is my summary of the issue:

In the last few years the DVCMC has taken a number of decisions that are questionable. The DVCMC is paid by the owners with the MF and has a fiduciary responsibility to make the best interests of the membership. And yet:

• with the 2020 original point charts, they tried to increase the lockoff premium, with the effect of diluting ownership and greatly increase breakage income (aka profits for the Disney Company). Those point charts were rolled back before they became effective
• after years that the grocery deliveries in room by bell services were included in the MF paid by owners, DVCMC decided to start charging $6 while not decreasing MF
• Riviera has been allowed to join the Vacation Club with its own set of rules regarding exchanges (The POS of the older resorts required all future resorts to join the Club with the same set of rules). We can actually say that Riviera is not really a Vacation Club resort, since it doesn't meet the definition of a VC according to the Florida law.
• they introduced a 7 seasons point charts that most years will increase the number of points needed to book the whole resort, with the effect of increasing breakage income (aka profits for the Disney Company).

With their actions, the DVCMC is losing the trust of the membership.

 

[CarolMN]

At this point, I would settle for a CLEAR set of criteria that DVCMC uses to prepare the charts. What are the TOTAL POINTS for each resort and exactly how can those points legally be shifted to balance demand. Examples would b e helpful. I want to do my own calculations and be confident that I will get the same result as they have.

FWIW, I also agree with @Bing Showei and @Shamus. I love the DIS DVC Community, but I recognize that not all facts (opinions) posted here are accurate or tell the whole story.

 

[DisneyMountainWoman]

The post is now up! https://dvcfan.com/2021/04/27/rumor...IS3eMwul6mL_G7Jo8C3bnOU6ieozYEZ-pr5mEWKDUP5Zg

 

[EM Lawrence]

I think you will lose people if you get too in the weeds about the specific math involved. I would sum it up like this:

DVCM changed the seasons from 5 to 7, possibly without any authority. This makes the total points more complicated to calculate and has the practical affect of making the point inflation harder to see without doing extensive calculations. It also allows them to manipulate holidays to create points that were not in the charts when there were only 5 season.

All points are supposed to balance and never increase (the generally understood rule that if DVC points increase in one season, they must have a corresponding decrease in another season.) Most members understand this.

The 2022 point chart contains .5% more points, with no corresponding decrease of .5%, thus inflating the points by .5%. Since DVC owners actually own a percentage of a real estate interest in our home resorts, our true ownership is diluted by .5%. (I already own just a sliver of a doorknob, but it’s my doorknob sliver and I have a legal right to every tiny fraction of it!)

Inflating the points means that if every DVC member used all of their points to book rooms, there would still be extra rooms not booked by DVC members that DVCM can rent out for profit. This extra cash to DVCM does not benefit the membership due to breakage caps.

I believe it was @i<3riviera who calculated the .5% point inflation would allow DVCM to rent two extra rooms every day of the year for cash, which would earn them a couple of million extra dollars per year. Again, with no benefit to the membership because the breakage cap is already met every year. This particular detail has really helped to make the .5% concrete in my mind, rather than what seems like a ”rounding error” as they have called it in some phone calls with members.


This is the way I would sum up the situation to try to make it easily digestible to people. I know there are some details left out, but I think you will lose people if you start talking about Gregorian Easter, etc...

 

[pkrieger2287]

We've tried to keep things as simple as possible for now and directed folks to this thread if they want to take more of a deep dive down the rabbit hole. Would appreciate any feedback and if you see something you feel needs better clarified or an error let me know.

This will be discussed on next Monday's DVC Show. I thought I rambled for a while which is why I think it's important people read the article and follow up here in this forum for a better understanding. That said, I think we got some of the primary points across while also being respectful of DVC for listening to everyone who has reached out regarding the changes. In the end, we made no real accusations other than a continued call for DVC to be more transparent with this process. We shared some of the facts and data explored here and now just wait and see if DVC acts as they have said they plan to.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1387033307712561155

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

At this point, I would settle for a CLEAR set of criteria that DVCMC uses to prepare the charts. What are the TOTAL POINTS for each resort and exactly how can those points legally be shifted to balance demand. Examples would b e helpful. I want to do my own calculations and be confident that I will get the same result as they have.

FWIW, I also agree with @Bing Showei and @Shamus. I love the DIS DVC Community, but I recognize that not all facts (opinions) posted here are accurate or tell the whole story.

A good 1st step IMO would be restoration of the 5 seasons.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I think you will lose people if you get too in the weeds about the specific math involved. I would sum it up like this:

DVCM changed the seasons from 5 to 7, possibly without any authority. This makes the total points more complicated to calculate and has the practical affect of making the point inflation harder to see without doing extensive calculations. It also allows them to manipulate holidays to create points that were not in the charts when there were only 5 season.

All points are supposed to balance and never increase (the generally understood rule that if DVC points increase in one season, they must have a corresponding decrease in another season.) Most members understand this.

The 2022 point chart contains .5% more points, with no corresponding decrease of .5%, thus inflating the points by .5%. Since DVC owners actually own a percentage of a real estate interest in our home resorts, our true ownership is diluted by .5%. (I already own just a sliver of a doorknob, but it’s my doorknob sliver and I have a legal right to every tiny fraction of it!)

Inflating the points means that if every DVC member used all of their points to book rooms, there would still be extra rooms not booked by DVC members that DVCM can rent out for profit. This extra cash to DVCM does not benefit the membership due to breakage caps.

I believe it was @i<3riviera who calculated the .5% point inflation would allow DVCM to rent two extra rooms every day of the year for cash, which would earn them a couple of million extra dollars per year. Again, with no benefit to the membership because the breakage cap is already met every year. This particular detail has really helped to make the .5% concrete in my mind, rather than what seems like a ”rounding error” as they have called it in some phone calls with members.

This is the way I would sum up the situation to try to make it easily digestible to people. I know there are some details left out, but I think you will lose people if you start talking about Gregorian Easter, etc...

With all due respect, this is not how your ownership works.

Year-over-year points fluctuations are irrelevant. The tolerance of variability is relative to the *base year*, not one year versus the prior year.

A good 1st step IMO would be restoration of the 5 seasons.

I completely disagree. I think DVC should have many more seasons, not fewer. I'd actually like if they had each night priced individually, the same as it is for cash rates. There's huge variability of demand even within the seasons that I think they should capture.

 

[pkrieger2287]

With all due respect, this is not how your ownership works.

Year-over-year points fluctuations are irrelevant. The tolerance of variability is relative to the *base year*, not one year versus the prior year.


I completely disagree. I think DVC should have many more seasons, not fewer. I'd actually like if they had each night priced individually, the same as it is for cash rates. There's no reason why a two night Friday-Saturday stay should be the same points cost as a Tuesday-Wednesday say.

I'm confused by your last comment. Weeknights don't cost the same as Weekends already...

 

[Minniemoo15]

At this point, I would settle for a CLEAR set of criteria that DVCMC uses to prepare the charts. What are the TOTAL POINTS for each resort and exactly how can those points legally be shifted to balance demand. Examples would b e helpful. I want to do my own calculations and be confident that I will get the same result as they have.

FWIW, I also agree with @Bing Showei and @Shamus. I love the DIS DVC Community, but I recognize that not all facts (opinions) posted here are accurate or tell the whole story.

I want this number, too. In my first call that was my main question I wanted answered- what is the MAX TOTAL number of points PVB's point chart can ever have? I should be able to quickly glance at a year's chart and determine if it is in line or out of whack.

I was prepared for them to not want to divulge that information or not know it off-hand. What I was not prepared for was their answer that there WAS NO LEGAL LIMIT to how high the "points for use" chart could go. I asked specifically if PVB's point chart could go from 4 million to 5 million to 10 million. They said that though the answer isn't satisfying to me as an owner, yes - it technically could. They said there was nothing to prevent point charts by rising, beyond the 20% daily cap that is outlined in POS. I asked if theoretically every day could rise 20% year after year. They answered YES. They then tried to assure me this would never happen, there is no intention to add points to a chart, etc etc etc.

In a follow-up call I brought this up again and how much this had shocked me. They admitted they were mistaken when telling me that on the last call and clarified that upon further investigation, they were now forming a committee to figure out how high points for use charts can go. To me that committee won't have to look very far...the POS is pretty clear and outlines what can and cannot be done. The fact that the person in charge of making the point charts thought that the charts could legally rise infinitely is very frightening.

 

[Minniemoo15]

We've tried to keep things as simple as possible for now and directed folks to this thread if they want to take more of a deep dive down the rabbit hole. Would appreciate any feedback and if you see something you feel needs better clarified or an error let me know.

This will be discussed on next Monday's DVC Show. I thought I rambled for a while which is why I think it's important people read the article and follow up here in this forum for a better understanding. That said, I think we got some of the primary points across while also being respectful of DVC for listening to everyone who has reached out regarding the changes. In the end, we made no real accusations other than a continued call for DVC to be more transparent with this process. We shared some of the facts and data explored here and now just wait and see if DVC acts as they have said they plan to.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1387033307712561155

Great article. Thanks for using your voice to share our concerns in clear and concise way.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I'm confused by your last comment. Weeknights don't cost the same as Weekends already...

Good catch... I've been in Aulani planning mode lately and that's not the case there.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

We've tried to keep things as simple as possible for now and directed folks to this thread if they want to take more of a deep dive down the rabbit hole. Would appreciate any feedback and if you see something you feel needs better clarified or an error let me know.

This will be discussed on next Monday's DVC Show. I thought I rambled for a while which is why I think it's important people read the article and follow up here in this forum for a better understanding. That said, I think we got some of the primary points across while also being respectful of DVC for listening to everyone who has reached out regarding the changes. In the end, we made no real accusations other than a continued call for DVC to be more transparent with this process. We shared some of the facts and data explored here and now just wait and see if DVC acts as they have said they plan to.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1387033307712561155

You’re awesome! Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Leight19]

We've tried to keep things as simple as possible for now and directed folks to this thread if they want to take more of a deep dive down the rabbit hole. Would appreciate any feedback and if you see something you feel needs better clarified or an error let me know.

This will be discussed on next Monday's DVC Show. I thought I rambled for a while which is why I think it's important people read the article and follow up here in this forum for a better understanding. That said, I think we got some of the primary points across while also being respectful of DVC for listening to everyone who has reached out regarding the changes. In the end, we made no real accusations other than a continued call for DVC to be more transparent with this process. We shared some of the facts and data explored here and now just wait and see if DVC acts as they have said they plan to.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1387033307712561155

Thank you for putting this together. The one thing I may have misunderstood from thread but wanted to clarify is how Easter impacts the point charts. Article seems to indicate impact is due to Easter being able to fall in 3 seasons so will add more points if falls in cheaper season vs expensive season.

My understanding was slightly different. I believe impact goes beyond this since dvc season dates are defined by Easter. My understanding is all days from march 1 to Easter week fall in 6th season and days from week after Easter to end of April fall in 5th season. This means when you have early Easter you have more days falling in 5th season and less in 6th. Vice versa when you have late Easter you have more days in 6th season and less in 5th.

For 2021 to 2022, this shifted 13 days between seasons without adjustment elsewhere as “normal calendar variability”. Compared to base year of 2035 (earliest Easter) 2022 would have 23 extra days shifted. Further, the latest Easter in dvc future I can find is 2038 where it will be 25th apr and this would shift 31 days (full month) between season 5 and 6 with no adjustment elsewhere.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

With all due respect, this is not how your ownership works.

Year-over-year points fluctuations are irrelevant. The tolerance of variability is relative to the *base year*, not one year versus the prior year.


I completely disagree. I think DVC should have many more seasons, not fewer. I'd actually like if they had each night priced individually, the same as it is for cash rates. There's huge variability of demand even within the seasons that I think they should capture.

If the interpretation is that they could not create more seasons then they need to go back. Regarding different night by night pricing that is already done and there's only so much variability that would exist anyway. Weeknights vary from weekends and different times of the year vary. That actually is the same as the hotels do though but to remind - DVC is not a hotel, it's a timeshare and needs to hold to the agreements.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

If the interpretation is that they could not create more seasons then they need to go back. Regarding different night by night pricing that is already done and there's only so much variability that would exist anyway. Weeknights vary from weekends and different times of the year vary. That actually is the same as the hotels do though but to remind - DVC is not a hotel, it's a timeshare and needs to hold to the agreements.

There is nothing in the agreement that dictates the number of price seasons. The fact that it's a timeshare and not a hotel has nothing to do with it.

 

[mgarbowski]

There is nothing in the agreement that dictates the number of price seasons. The fact that it's a timeshare and not a hotel has nothing to do with it.

There are multiple posts addressing this earlier in the thread. The short summary is the legal papers authorize one of the management entities to designate seasons, in what very likely is a one-time operation. There is no apparent authority to modify the number of seasons once set. There might be an argument that a right to modify is implied as a necessary tool, but nothing in the papers directly supports it, and everything else is spelled out rather exactly that such an argument by implication is not a clear winner.

 

[johnsbelt]

With all due respect, this is not how your ownership works.

Year-over-year points fluctuations are irrelevant. The tolerance of variability is relative to the *base year*, not one year versus the prior year.


I completely disagree. I think DVC should have many more seasons, not fewer. I'd actually like if they had each night priced individually, the same as it is for cash rates. There's huge variability of demand even within the seasons that I think they should capture.

With regard to the "base year", do we have any idea on which year it is? I know it has to be different for each of the resorts, but for example BLT, would it be 2009/10 (the first year it opened)?

Thanks,
John

 

[Sandisw]

With regard to the "base year", do we have any idea on which year it is? I know it has to be different for each of the resorts, but for example BLT, would it be 2009/10 (the first year it opened)?

Thanks,
John

Contract defines base UY as 365 days with the minimum number of Friday and Saturdays...it may use word weekend days..during high demand time.

So, it does not define it as a specific year.

 

[JOLT]

With regard to the "base year", do we have any idea on which year it is? I know it has to be different for each of the resorts, but for example BLT, would it be 2009/10 (the first year it opened)?

Thanks,
John

The year that the points add up equal would be 2035 which Yvonne agreed to but later changed her tune on the word "base year"