DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

One thing I think you may be missing is they aren’t selling the extra points but are using the availability the extra points create to rent out extra vacant rooms that don’t get booked. Renting them is something they are allowed to do but doesn’t benefit us as they historically always max out revenue that goes to us from that source.
The way they justify it is the contract has language the point charts can’t go up across year except for normal calendar variation. Issue is the change to seasons makes the calendar variation more variable and they pick base year so they never have less then declared points so higher variability adds points to system at cost of membership interest (my understanding of thread to date).
This and the explanation by Louis Morrell (a few comments up) are good summarizations of the issue. Just to play devil's advocate so that I understand a little better, what if DVC raised the points in a certain category that always has vacancies (and maybe a lot of vacancies)? For example, what if they raised the points for a two bedroom villa in the middle/lower travel periods? If those rooms are vacant during those time periods anyways, then raising the points wouldn't be a huge issue to members and would allow DVC to make more $$ by renting out those (now) higher point rooms. And listen, I know I am REALLY grasping here because even in this example DVC should lower the points somewhere else to even out the total points for the year. I am just trying to see if there is a way for them to justify what they are doing. I really can't see a justification, though. I just try to see all sides of an issue.
 
I understand that part of it. It's complete (insert expletive). But I was interested in confirming that they can't sell more points for each resort. For example, BCV is listed as having a total pool of 3,027,092 total points. DVC can't just start selling more direct BCV points, correct? I am curious because I saw a DIS thread that showed BCV having 1,928,625 total points back when the MFs were announced in 2003. How could the total points for a resort increase? From my understanding, the total points for each resort are capped. That's what I wanted to confirm.

Points for sale is based on what has been declared and that can never change until more rooms are added to the resort....think treehouses which increased points available for sale,

In 2003, that number may have not yet included all the rooms? Like the points for RIV declared is less than what is possible since all rooms not yet part of DVC. As rooms are added, that point total goes up based on how they are declared. Eventually, once the entire resort is declared, that is the total points for sale that can not be change.
 
Points for sale is based on what has been declared and that can never change until more rooms are added to the resort....think treehouses which increased points available for sale,

In 2003, that number may have not yet included all the rooms? Like the points for RIV declared is less than what is possible since all rooms not yet part of DVC. As rooms are added, that point total goes up based on how they are declared. Eventually, once the entire resort is declared, that is the total points for sale that can not be change.
Perfect! Thank you for confirming. That's what I thought.
 
This and the explanation by Louis Morrell (a few comments up) are good summarizations of the issue. Just to play devil's advocate so that I understand a little better, what if DVC raised the points in a certain category that always has vacancies (and maybe a lot of vacancies)? For example, what if they raised the points for a two bedroom villa in the middle/lower travel periods? If those rooms are vacant during those time periods anyways, then raising the points wouldn't be a huge issue to members and would allow DVC to make more $$ by renting out those (now) higher point rooms. And listen, I know I am REALLY grasping here because even in this example DVC should lower the points somewhere else to even out the total points for the year. I am just trying to see if there is a way for them to justify what they are doing. I really can't see a justification, though. I just try to see all sides of an issue.
I think the justification from their side is the extra seasons that change based on timing of Easter better enables them to balance inventory by selectively increasing point cost based on how they anticipate people travel each specific year. Once they change number of seasons you get added variability based on calendar and I think they claimed legally can’t have any year where they require less points to book resort then sold (e.g. even though cheaper for those who book some couldn’t book any room). Idk specifics about why they can’t further adjust points in each category each year to not have overage on years that have inflated points (the contract does allow increases by calendar variability) but I think the above has been their explanation. What I think is not up for debate is they chose things that vast majority of membership would view as not in their best interest but in best interest for them to generate revenue off unrented rooms.
 

I think the justification from their side is the extra seasons that change based on timing of Easter better enables them to balance inventory by selectively increasing point cost based on how they anticipate people travel each specific year. Once they change number of seasons you get added variability based on calendar and I think they claimed legally can’t have any year where they require less points to book resort then sold (e.g. even though cheaper for those who book some couldn’t book any room). Idk specifics about why they can’t further adjust points in each category each year to not have overage on years that have inflated points (the contract does allow increases by calendar variability) but I think the above has been their explanation. What I think is not up for debate is they chose things that vast majority of membership would view as not in their best interest but in best interest for them to generate revenue off unrented rooms.

They can do what they want with the seasons as far as I am concerned but they cannot inflate overall points. So if that’s their explanation, it is not legal. They could adjust the seasons without inflating points. They have chosen to inflate points. Not legal.
 
I think the justification from their side is the extra seasons that change based on timing of Easter better enables them to balance inventory by selectively increasing point cost based on how they anticipate people travel each specific year. Once they change number of seasons you get added variability based on calendar and I think they claimed legally can’t have any year where they require less points to book resort then sold (e.g. even though cheaper for those who book some couldn’t book any room). Idk specifics about why they can’t further adjust points in each category each year to not have overage on years that have inflated points (the contract does allow increases by calendar variability) but I think the above has been their explanation. What I think is not up for debate is they chose things that vast majority of membership would view as not in their best interest but in best interest for them to generate revenue off unrented rooms.

One thing I am going to disagree with. That the change for the 2022 charts does not consider the needs of owners and was done for sinister reasons.

That is why I advise people to call directly and get first hand information and not rely on what others say here in deciding your own opinion.

It’s one of the reasons I did not bother even sharing things I have learned from my calls because honestly, its still my opinion and confidence things are exactly how they should be both legally and with owners best interest in mind
 
That is why I advise people to call directly and get first hand information and not rely on what others say here in deciding your own opinion.
Except that the first hand explanation is often inaccurate, in direct conflict with language in the POS, or just a fundamentally skewed narrative that serves only to further Disney’s efforts to undermine ownership.

In 2019 my extensive conversations with Disney yielded, among other things, the following three points:

- 1 Bedrooms are much higher in demand than 2 bedrooms and justifies a point increase
- By increasing lockoff premiums, members benefit first because more rooms become available as other owners will be able to book fewer days
- Disney had done nothing wrong legally and was acting in the best interest of owners, reversing course only to better “communicate” and avoid further “confusion” around the increase should they eventually do it again

The first point contradicts every observable reality that any Disney timeshare owner who has tried to book a resort with a lockoff has experienced (read: only blue and white card owners). Outside of creative metrics measuring “availability” as something beyond what an owner can book, this is just patently untrue.

The second point, while factually true, is a grotesque interpretation of what happens when ownership interest is diluted/reduced wholesale across the entire membership. By that logic, increasing, unchecked, the lockoff premium to the point where studios cost as much as 2BRs would best serve the membership because everybody would book 2BRs first, 1BRs second, and there would be a sea of studio availability suddenly available. Winner: us!

And the third point I don’t buy for a second. There was no “communication” issue or “confusion” on the part of the membership. They were caught in a lie about point one. Disney didn’t expect there to be as much diving into the POS or revisiting the legality of the Treehouses or Boardwalk view changes, so they backpedaled to get their ducks in order. And the new and improved, markedly more obfuscated, approach is what we see today.

I envy your faith in Disney. I really do. I imagine my ownership enjoyment would increase exponentially if I stopped looking so carefully at point charts, or caring about the larger implications to the entire ownership when Disney makes anti-owner policy choices around their product offerings. But unfortunately, I’m unable to unsee what Disney keeps trying to do.

In the last round, we were labeled as a vocal minority of whiners and complainers. Now you repeatedly suggest that the reduction of ownership value by the party in this relationship who holds all the power, is a matter of “opinion”.

If ownership has taught me anything, it’s that my interests are much more aligned with the vocal minority of “whiners” on these boards than they are with Disney.
 
Except that the first hand explanation is often inaccurate, in direct conflict with language in the POS, or just a fundamentally skewed narrative that serves only to further Disney’s efforts to undermine ownership.

In 2019 my extensive conversations with Disney yielded, among other things, the following three points:

- 1 Bedrooms are much higher in demand than 2 bedrooms and justifies a point increase
- By increasing lockoff premiums, members benefit first because more rooms become available as people will be able to book fewer days
- Disney had done nothing wrong legally and was acting in the best interest of owners, reversing course only to better “communicate” and avoid further “confusion” around the increase should they eventually do it again

The first point contradicts every observable reality that any Disney timeshare owner who has tried to book a resort with a lockoff has experienced (read: only blue and white card owners). Outside of creative metrics measuring “availability” as something beyond what an owner can book, this is just patently untrue.

The second point, while factually true, is a grotesque interpretation of what happens when ownership interest is diluted/reduced wholesale across the entire membership. By that logic, increasing, unchecked, the lockoff premium to the point where studios cost as much as 2BRs would best serve the membership because everybody would book 2BRs first, 1BRs second, and there would be a sea of studio availability suddenly available. Winner: us!

And the third point I don’t buy for a second. There was no “communication” issue or “confusion” on the part of the membership. They were caught in a lie about point one. Disney didn’t expect there to be as much diving into the POS or revisiting the legality of the Treehouses or Boardwalk view changes, so they backpedaled to get their ducks in order. And the new and improved, markedly more obfuscated, approach is what we see today.

I envy your faith in Disney. I really do. I imagine my ownership enjoyment would increase exponentially if I stopped looking so carefully at point charts, or caring about the larger implications to the entire ownership when Disney makes anti-owner policy choices around their product offerings. But unfortunately, I’m unable to unsee what Disney keeps trying to do.

In the last round, we were labeled as a vocal minority of whiners and complainers. Now you repeatedly suggest that the reduction of ownership value by the party in this relationship who holds all the power, is a matter of “opinion”.

If ownership has taught me anything, it’s that my interests are much more aligned with the vocal minority of “whiners” on these boards than they are with Disney.

I get what you are saying, but having called and gotten some good info, I am very confident in the information I received as being accurate, and extremely comfortable in my opinion regarding this situation...which, at the end of the day, is all we can do as owners.

I still think everyone should call, get the first hand information from DVCM, and decide from there.

ETA: It is not my faith in Disney either as I take this approach in my entire life. it is my faith in being a smart consumer, going to the source, seeking advice from friends who have much more knowledge regarding contracts, and then making a decision from there.
 
A question for @Sandisw and the others who have spoken with DVC. Have they told you that the Base Year is used only when the first point chart is created or am I the first with whom they've used this strategy?
Thanks
 
One thing I am going to disagree with. That the change for the 2022 charts does not consider the needs of owners and was done for sinister reasons.

That is why I advise people to call directly and get first hand information and not rely on what others say here in deciding your own opinion.

It’s one of the reasons I did not bother even sharing things I have learned from my calls because honestly, its still my opinion and confidence things are exactly how they should be both legally and with owners best interest in mind

Actually, I would like to understand what reasons/ facts informed your opinion. I see lots of analysis to describe how agreement terms are not being kept in good faith. I welcome sharing things you have learned, especially if it's information that hasn't been shared. I can't say I've come to a fair decision without equally weighing disparate data.

Of course, if you're not comfortable to share, I understand. I wanted to let you know there's at least one person willing to consider a viewpoint, when buoyed by reasoned analysis, which might improve my understanding and difference of opinion.

I do agree that opinion based on feeling, rather than data-based analysis, does get subjective quite quickly. I share your hesitation to dive into opinion that mostly uses feelings as its reasoning.
 
They did not tell me Base year was only used to create the first charts.
 
Actually, I would like to understand what reasons/ facts informed your opinion. I see lots of analysis to describe how agreement terms are not being kept in good faith. I welcome sharing things you have learned, especially if it's information that hasn't been shared. I can't say I've come to a fair decision without equally weighing disparate data.

Of course, if you're not comfortable to share, I understand. I wanted to let you know there's at least one person willing to consider a viewpoint, when buoyed by reasoned analysis, which might improve my understanding and difference of opinion.

I do agree that opinion based on feeling, rather than data-based analysis, does get subjective quite quickly. I share your hesitation to dive into opinion that mostly uses feelings as its reasoning.

To be fair, part of my hesitation is that I have to mix duties as a moderator and am trying to ensure things dont get seen as intertwined...if that makes sense?
 
One thing I am going to disagree with. That the change for the 2022 charts does not consider the needs of owners and was done for sinister reasons.

That is why I advise people to call directly and get first hand information and not rely on what others say here in deciding your own opinion.

It’s one of the reasons I did not bother even sharing things I have learned from my calls because honestly, its still my opinion and confidence things are exactly how they should be both legally and with owners best interest in mind
I appreciate your feedback but regarding my statement it was that most view it as not in best interest. If there’s reasons that make it in our best interest, they have not effectively communicated to members who have called. I have not called directly as I own at akv which I believe was one of resorts not effected.
 
What contact info are y'all using to voice concerns / complaints? And/or for anybody filing complaints with the relevant regulators in Florida, what is the best contact info there?
 
What contact info are y'all using to voice concerns / complaints? And/or for anybody filing complaints with the relevant regulators in Florida, what is the best contact info there?

I sent my emails via MS website asking to have it passed to the correct department with my specific questions as part of that email.
 
I sent my emails via MS website asking to have it passed to the correct department with my specific questions as part of that email.

Thanks, Sandi! Helpful as always. :)
 
I have not called directly as I own at akv which I believe was one of resorts not effected.
AKV was affected. @i<3riviera just wasn’t able to get accurate analysis because there doesn’t seem to be an accurate list of room types by view type, but the inflation affects all resorts as his initial analysis shows.

Actually, if you could get DVC to give you that information, then he could give you an accurate analysis!
 
One thing I am going to disagree with. That the change for the 2022 charts does not consider the needs of owners and was done for sinister reasons.

That is why I advise people to call directly and get first hand information and not rely on what others say here in deciding your own opinion.

It’s one of the reasons I did not bother even sharing things I have learned from my calls because honestly, its still my opinion and confidence things are exactly how they should be both legally and with owners best interest in mind

Because DVC has shown a history of looking out for the members best interest and fulfilling their legal obligations previously...
 



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