DVC plans to target commercial renters

[Chuck S]

I'm not saying DVC goes nuclear and comes down on people without investigating. If you have 500 points and every year ~250 are in the name of someone else it's very easy to prove they are people you know. If your wife does girls trips or family trips without you....it would be pretty simple to show Disney you know the person.

And I'm not saying they investigate these situations like your example on a one off. I'm saying if a member is consistently showing a pattern of other people using their membership...year in and year out...they could investigate.

But why would an owner who is using their points for friends and family for a trip two or three time every year or so HAVE to go through the inconvenience and time to prove it? Guilty until Proven Innocent?

 

[Sandisw]

Firstly, idk about him, but my wife's name is on my contracts, so no issue.

Second, and this would literally never happen for me, if someone's name not on the membership were on half your reservations 2 years in a row, you'd get an email. Simply explain why at that point.

Since I am not a IT person, the computer has to check every single membership and be able to figure out that half the points booked have someone else’s name?

Isn’t it just easier to simply require owners to submit rental agreements and if not submitted, have the guest sign one when they check in.

I mean all an owner has to do is keep their name on and rent with one less occupancy. Studios that sleep 5 only accept 4.

But even with letters, where do the CMs come from to handle all the calls for owners to explain?

IMO, whatever is decided, enforcement needs to be easy and make sense. If not, there is no sense doing anything.

It’s why this discussion is a good one because commercial in the context of DVC is not cut and dry.

 

[Sandisw]

For rentals and commercial use - pattern of use matters. This wording already exists in every single contract. If I bought a contract that rarely if ever is for personal use… what is it?

When it comes to ‘pattern’ there’s more than one angle DVC can look. Which patterns of use could reasonably apply for crossing the line?

I’m not convinced DVC management must stick with the same methods they used over a decade ago. They are there to oversee the continued performance of a personal use vacation club. Between 2008 and 2025 more resorts, more points and more members were added. Rental impact goes beyond though. The ratio of rentals has increased. The impact has increased. 2010 no longer matters. DVC has to manage things as they stand today. Use the existing contracts to keep the membership from going off the rails.

This is true and it’s why I think they have added more to the team to tease this out.

The rules from before obviously don’t work because people found a way around them.

Now DVC has to go back and find a reasonable way to set the rules that balance renting that they support and renting they don’t.

Most importantly, I think they will be very careful to choose those rules that they feel can be plausibly supported by what the contract says.

 

[lowlight]

Address the question:

Why did you state that parents of young children buying DVC and then having to live a bit more frugally or scrounge up some extra cash during their college years is a Silver Surfer scenario?

You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth! Nice try Lt. Kaffee, but I’m not in the witness box right now. The specifics don’t matter- parents with kids in college, 8 year bid in the clink, or a nearly decade long medically induced coma. We are looking for “good of the membership as a whole” I’ve been told, many times.

 

[lowlight]

“One member responded that she appreciates the flexibility afforded by Disney Vacation Club, and hopes they don't make any moves which limit her ability to change dates, change resorts and modify her own guest list as circumstances dictate.“

Sandi, they quoted you!

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

But why would an owner who is using their points for friends and family for a trip two or three time every year or so HAVE to go through the inconvenience and time to prove it? Guilty until Proven Innocent?

View attachment 925994

If you took all the members that year after year have multiple reservations consistently without their names on them...what percentage do you think are commercial renters and what percentage are just super generous people? I'd guess your example is a small small percentage. And as I said above, there are easy ways to cross reference guests on a reservation and people in their friends and family list. I'd bet that would eliminate the need for most inquires.

And I'm not saying DVC is going full 1692 Salem witch trial. So if some members every once in a while have to respond to an inquiry I don't see that as the end of the world.

 

[Sandisw]

I want them to look at how I use my points and make that the gold standard

If one is renting most of their points every single year, I think they are taking advantage of a flexible system rather than using the system as intended (exactly the same way I feel about walking).

What I want enforced first and foremost is the large scale commercial renting that is obvious and has a discernible negative effect on the members.

And I think it’s reasonable to investigate an owner who is showing a pattern of renting year in and year out a lot of their points. We agree on that.

That type of system makes sense and the biggest thing it doesn’t do is attempt to micromanage what rooms are being booked, when or even how the owner finds a renter because all of that really should not matter, since we are allowed to book rooms for more than just ourselves.

As I have said, even though I might not personally see renting half your points to pay all your dues as commercial…if DVC did,I’d certainly say it would fall under “reasonable”.

 

[eticketplease]

I would think they are in his friends and family list? Pretty easy to cross reference. And I am guessing most members who are renting aren't adding the people they rent to to their friends and family list.

That is a good point they are probably there but you do realize DVC can't see the Friends and Family list right?

We have to manually link our DVC reservations to MDE as it is.

Sounds like even more potential IT issues and costs for DVC members to evaluate if someone is renting when they are making legitimate reservations for family.

 

[xdan0920]

Parents of young children buying DVC and then having to live a bit more frugally or scrounge up some extra cash their college years is a Silver Surfer scenario?

The answer is simple. Lean more towards flexibility and simplicity.

If you don’t like it, then sell your contract.

Lean towards protecting members ability to use their membership for themselves. IMO.

Ahah! There it is!

I’ve been taken out of context!

 

[eticketplease]

I’ve been taken out of context!

That never happens here!!

 

[Hubalorian]

And I think it’s reasonable to investigate an owner who is showing a pattern of renting year in and year out a lot of their points. We agree on that.

That type of system makes sense and the biggest thing it doesn’t do is attempt to micromanage what rooms are being booked, when or even how the owner finds a renter because all of that really should not matter, since we are allowed to book rooms for more than just ourselves.

As I have said, even though I might not personally see renting half your points to pay all your dues as commercial…if DVC did,I’d certainly say it would fall under “reasonable”.

I think it becomes difficult when looking at the percentage of points rented. For example, say I have a 150 point contract. I rent 250 points over three years for whatever reason. That would be over 50% of my points in that three year span. However, if I had 300 points, it would be around 27% over the same span. My point is, why is one member in the wrong for renting the same amount of points over the same time span but the other is not? 250 points is 250 points, it takes out the same amount of inventory regardless of how many total points I may have per year.

 

[tom1944]

I think Genie+ is correct with the pattern of use statement.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Ahah! There it is!

Actually, HERE it is:

That’s where I’m starting to come down. They want every little thing carved out to say it’s okay to rent consistently. So at this point, I’d prefer renting to completely disappear

It was said in the context of "if people are going to make up a million ridiculously obscure hypotheticals to rationalize every possible (and impossible) scenario could in some 3D chess game end up falsely considered rental activity, then it would be better to just end all renting because at that point the rules mean nothing, and no one is going to follow them".

Next time, at least put some effort into it.

 

[VGCgroupie]

That fruit is lying on the ground, just waiting to be picked up.

Best comment of the 55 pages to date.

 

[Sandisw]

I think it becomes difficult when looking at the percentage of points rented. For example, say I have a 150 point contract. I rent 250 points over three years for whatever reason. That would be over 50% of my points in that three year span. However, if I had 300 points, it would be around 27% over the same span. My point is, why is one member in the wrong for renting the same amount of points over the same time span but the other is not? 250 points is 250 points, it takes out the same amount of inventory regardless of how many total points I may have per year.

I actually don’t like using hard and fast numbers but IMO, DVC has and I believe always will consider commercial renting to be an owner who is obviously in it for a business and not to offset vacation costs.

I was simply trying to say that if DVC decided that renting over half your points year after year was a pattern they believed met the commercial purpose threshold, it’s one I could live with…meaning it would be something plausible to match the contract.

In truth, I still believe that DVC does not plan to go after owners who rent, even if they rent a lot, unless they have a lot of points and they really do feel they doing it as a business. It’s the the owners who have found ways to amass a lot of point under all different memberships to hide in plain sight.

Those are the owners I expect DVC to target especially since those are the ones that were mentioned at the meeting.

 

[Sandisw]

Actually, HERE it is:

It was said in the context of "if people are going to make up a million ridiculously obscure hypotheticals to rationalize every possible (and impossible) scenario could in some 3D chess game end up falsely considered rental activity, then it would be better to just end all renting because at that point the rules mean nothing, and no one is going to follow them".

Next time, at least put some effort into it.

Except let’s be fair. While people have thrown out situations that they don’t believe meshes with the commercial purpose clause of the contract, just as many suggestions have been thrown around that pretty much makes all rentals commercial.

No spec renting, regardless of how many, no use of third party, no making a profit, no renting high demand rooms, etc.

So, while no one has said renting should be stopped, some of the rules people want to see would make it difficult for the average owner to rent…in my book, that is pretty close to the same thing.

I am still wondering what examples of renting those who want changes do see as okay with an explanation of how those would not be commercial.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I am still wondering what examples of renting those who want changes do see as okay with an explanation of how those would not be commercial.

And that is fine and an honest question, worthy of being asked and answered (although I think a few have attempted to answer it in good faith already).

Conversely, some of the hypotheticals that are being tossed around are at best, reductio ad absurdum arguments a sixth grade debate team would laugh at.

I mean, I very rarely rent any points out, but now I’m wondering what will happen if I get abducted by aliens and disappear for 20 years. Can my family rent out my points? Who will pay my dues? I mean sure, I’ll be trapped on a spaceship somewhere on the other side of a black hole, but the grands will want those points someday so there’s no way we’re selling them.

 

[lowlight]

And that is fine and an honest question, worthy of being asked and answered (although I think a few have attempted to answer it in good faith already).

Conversely, some of the hypotheticals that are being tossed around are at best, reductio ad absurdum arguments a sixth grade debate team would laugh at.

I mean, I very rarely rent any points out, but now I’m wondering what will happen if I get abducted by aliens and disappear for 20 years. Can my family rent out my points? Who will pay my dues? I mean sure, I’ll be trapped on a spaceship somewhere on the other side of a black hole, but the grands will want those points someday so there’s no way we’re selling them.

Will no one think of poor Don?! Would you have him give all his points to breakage while he’s being probed on an alien planet? Answer me!!

I am still wondering what examples of renting those who want changes do see as okay with an explanation of how those would not be commercial.

Put aside the fact that all renting is commercial, because that’s a different argument.

Person A has 500 points and uses 400 of them most years, sometimes more, sometimes less depending on room type. Some years they bank the extra, and some years they rent it to recoup dues. They’ve been owners for 10 years, and due to emergencies in year 5 and 7, they rented all their points. While they are commercially renting, it’s clearly not operating as a business and doesn’t have a pattern to it.

Person B has 500 points and uses 100 of them on a Boardwalk studio every year. They take the remaining 400 and book rooms and rent them every year. They’ve been members for 8 years and have done this every year except 1, when they used all the points for a big family trip. This person is renting their points as a business and it has a pattern to it.

Do you disagree with this?

Maybe it was never about renting, maybe it was about the friends we made along the way.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Difficult to be sure, but what you write is plausible, I think.
The problem is DVC won't increase the first two weeks of December because (I think) a lot of fixed weeks have been sold for those dates. If they increase those more, then they have to use their own points to compensate all owners who keep their weeks. This will make them lose money.

Do they have to change points/seasons at all resorts the same? If I understand correctly, the majority of the resorts with the worst problems do not have any FW available…so you could rebalance at crescent lake and VGC even if you can’t rebalance at VGF and VDH, right?

I agree with the last part.

I think what Disney really doesn’t want is anything that feels like an asset manager coming in and applying private equity like techniques to DVC at a large scale.

I do think this is the biggest problem (by far)— but also, and I can’t believe this hasn’t been discussed but, does anybody know if DVC can make all rentals (or at least 3rd party rentals) go through DVC? Like basically set up their own version where you can trade in your points or directly match you with owners and take the broker cut?

That fruit is lying on the ground, just waiting to be picked up.

It’s been on the ground so long it’s rotting and creating quite the miasma.

So what constitutes a pattern?

If I need to rent my points because college tuition doesn’t allow for much of a travel budget for 8 years (over 2 kids)…. over a 40-50 year contract that means that ~80% of the time it was for personal use.

To me, this is the hardest edge case…but it’s why I am barking up the tree or stopping spec renting and renting the most profitable units in particular. If you can’t travel for 5 years and want to transfer your points (which definitionally are going to other owners) at $20/pt (or inflation adjusted equivalent) that seems super reasonable. Or booking some of the less loved but still worth more than $18/pt/night reservations inside of 7mo… only the people truly needing to maximize profit need to spec rent or book very in demand categories.

I would say renting a majority of your points out 8 years in a row would constitute a pattern....especially due to a situation you know is coming. But if explained that you have kids in college for 8 years and can't travel to WDW I could see them being okay with that. But I could also see them NOT being okay with renting your points out that many years in a row.

Yes, it could go either way, but speaking purely as a member, somebody transferring/renting at 2x dues or less is way more sympathetic than somebody renting at 4-5x dues with spec rentals.

I get where you are coming from, but they don’t have the staff to be dealing with thousands of letters that need to go to “renting court” each year.

It’s an increased expense and potential litigation that Disney doesn’t need to assume.

They actually don’t need to do that. An algorithm could trigger an automatically generated letter and they can shut off the people from the booking site who don’t submit standardized paperwork establishing the rentals weren’t for profit. There would still be some cost to review, but they can shut people off who violate the T&Cs without winning in court first.

How would Disney know if you are renting to friends and family or complete strangers?

Certainly not by using the last name. Me and my wife we don’t share the same last name. Only some of my children do.

I do think that whatever they do should take into account non-traditional family structures, naming conventions, etc., which will add more complexity to enforcement.

I would think they are in his friends and family list? Pretty easy to cross reference. And I am guessing most members who are renting aren't adding the people they rent to to their friends and family list.

Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if commercial renters were willing to link guests as friends and family, especially if the linked account doesn’t go to the parks often.

Except let’s be fair. While people have thrown out situations that they don’t believe meshes with the commercial purpose clause of the contract, just as many suggestions have been thrown around that pretty much makes all rentals commercial.

No spec renting, regardless of how many, no use of third party, no making a profit, no renting high demand rooms, etc.

I’m still haven’t heard any explanation as to why anybody would need to spec rent other than for a commercial purpose. It’s not hard to do a normal on demand rental or even after 7mo rental and still cover your costs. Similar situation for high demand rooms— I would hope we can all agree that owners (and perhaps friends and family) should get first crack at room use before someone trying to rent them out, and I don’t understand why anybody who owns for personal use would object to that. Restricting rentals to 9m at home resort and 6m SAP would dramatically hamper the worst commerical actors without making it hard for owners to rent when they need to.

So, while no one has said renting should be stopped, some of the rules people want to see would make it difficult for the average owner to rent…in my book, that is pretty close to the same thing.

I am still wondering what examples of renting those who want changes do see as okay with an explanation of how those would not be commercial.

I personally think renting what’s still available at 9 (home)/6 (SAP) months would give owners the ability to rent/transfer (either directly or through brokers) and cover more than their dues.

I genuinely don’t understand why anybody who owns DVC primarily for personal use thinks renters should be able to have equal priority with owners, or why anybody thinks spec rentals are necessary for non-commercial use.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Will no one think of poor Don?! Would you have him give all his points to breakage while he’s being probed on an alien planet? Answer me!!

Oh crap! I forgot to add in the recovery time after 20 years of probing. No Space Mountain or Matterhorn for me!