DVC plans to target commercial renters

[Chuck S]

Here's the thing, no one, other than DVC, really knows to what extent some owners are doing what could reasonably be called "Commercial Renting" and how much of an effect it has on availability, What we're hearing from owners, it that they believe it is affecting their availability for low point requirement rooms, especially during the holidays, at a handful of resorts. But remember, holiday booking have ALWAYS been a very busy time of DVC, thus the need for the room lottery system even in the very early years of DVC. There is no evidence that even if there were zero spec rentals that availability would open up for everyone that wants rooms. That doesn't mean that DVC should not try to reasonably address the issue, but if they do take action, it will be interesting to see what impact it actually has on availability, the price of resales, and so forth. But either way, those rooms will still be historically difficult to book, and people will still be complaining. I mean 56 pages, no real workable solutions that likely won't effect the entire membership, some positively, others negatively. For some, it won't be enough until ALL rentals of any kind are banned, under a very narrow definition of "commercial" and people who gift their stays to friends and family have to sign a sworn and notarized affitdavit that they are not rentals.

I think DVC will make no major change, and possibly put on a good show for a while, until they realize how much manpower and CM time it takes from their 12% cut of the budget. OR they will make only very minor changes that are simple and less costly to enforce, but have no big impact on the perceived problem, and some people will still be complaining when they can't get that AKV value studio for Christmas, New Year, Easter or Spring Break, or Marathon Weekends.

 

[Sandisw]

The bottom line is that the more complicated the system is then the more difficult it will be to convince people on vacation to pay $20-$30k to buy a 40-50 year timeshare.

A small percentage of people want to make the system much less flexible and restrict owners options and I hope they never succeed.

Another even smaller percentage of owners operate as a commercial business solely for profit and I hope that DVC finds a way to identify those owners and minimize the practice.

The overwhelming super majority of owners do not want a complex system and the current system works just fine.

To add, I think many owners went in to DVC with the comfort of knowing that they can rent points when and if they needed to and didn't expect to have to jump through hoops to do it, especially given the way the contract is written.

I know I keep going back to the contract (and yes, I know there are certain things that DVC can try and change), but when your average owners reads them and it says "its for personal use and not commerical"...don't buy expecting to get XYZ out of rentals, they are pretty much supporting the right to rent as long as you are not a business....

It's why I agree with you that having all new limiations to change the nature of allowable renting is something I just can't support....and I don't believe that DVC will support it either.....

Unfortunately, the biggest problem, IMO, is that the rental market has gotten large and more and more owners are doing it because it is so easy to do...and of course, some may be frustrated with it. How often is that line used here just on the DIS? Trading your points for cruises is a terrible value....just rent them and pay yourself? Why would you trade your points for the AP in the MMB program? That is a terribly value....just rent your points and profit the extra? Want to stay at a restricted resort? Rent your points and then rent someone elses at that resort? I can go on and on..

 

[Cyberc1978]

That's only because there's another small percentage that are taking advantage of the flexibility that DVC provides us, thereby irritating the **** out of the other small percentage

So who's at fault, the ones who misuse the system, or the ones who want that misuse prevented?

If a system supports a specific behavior, then IMO it's allowed. In this case walking is not specifically dis-allowed, but also not mentioned as something that is allowed. However normally only behavior which is not allowed is mentioned in the rules.

I would therefore say that no one is to blame and no one is misusing the system when it comes to walking.

Those that decide not to use a specific "feature" aka walking is free not to.

Heck back in the old days of RCI with ongoing searches, if you didn't get a match before the searched turned 2 years, meaning it would expire, RCI allowed you to cancel the search and get a new one back dated to when the old one was created keepding your number in the que. All with the support from RCI. That wasn't the intention of the system, but RCI allowed it, condoned it and helped you do it - after all they had to back date it.

 

[Nabas]

Honestly, I don't expect them to announce anything and that the crackdowns that might be occurring won't be noticed.

I expect crackdowns to be obvious.

For example, currently there’s a website with well over 100 confirmed Boardwalk Standard View Studio reservations. I expect most of these to disappear, with a bunch of Boardwalk availability suddenly appearing in the DVC booking tool.

If the crackdown isn’t obvious, then what’s the point?

 

[Sandisw]

I agree, and to further that point...

I think, the smaller scale stuff is adding up to at least a big a problem as the handful of LLCs we all want shut down. Thanks to the explosion of the third party rental market, we are looking at literally thousands of confirmed reservations listed for rent at any given time.

There is a lot of talk about "losing flexibility" if Disney cracks down on renting. I believe the opposite. If Disney cracks down on renting, my flexibility in using my membership will improve.

When my 10 year old is in college and I am stuck in a spaceship maybe I'll regret this line of thinking though....

For me, its not about the flexibility since I have no issue in who is staying in another room that an owner booked using their points.

It is about the contract that I bought and what rights I was given when I bought it. I do not want to give those up, regardless of whether I use them or not.

And, I know that other owners bought with the same understanding. That if we need to rent we can....we get to set our own terms and conditions, we need a rental agreement, and we cant run a business....there was no limit in place to micromange renting within a membership that is not being run as a commercial business.

So, my hope is that DVC abides by the contract and uses common sense and reasonable rules to define what level of renting an owner is doing is no longer in line with the contract.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Honestly, I don't expect them to announce anything and that the crackdowns that might be occuring won't be noticed.....because I truly believe that the players that are crossing the line are few and far between.

The board's statements seem to support this...not a common practice... and its why I feel confident that whatever threshold they will be using to go after owners they have identified as running a business will be what most will agree with should be stopped.

The LLC clause is the easiest one for them because it already exists. There are certianly owners out there who put their contracts in LLC's that may want to rent but aren't a business, but for them, it was a risk since the contract outlined who is eligible for using those points.

My understanding was that the board said something like "Hopefully we won't have this discussion next year"

If my understanding is correct then DVC needs to come out with some sort of statement or whatever, otherwise they will have the same discussion next year. If people hear nothing they will start to ask.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I expect crackdowns to be obvious.

For example, currently there’s a website with well over 100 confirmed Boardwalk Standard View Studio reservations. I expect most of these to disappear, with a bunch of Boardwalk availability suddenly appearing in the DVC booking tool.

If the crackdown isn’t obvious, then what’s the point?

Im in the same boat.

Assuming it's true that a lot have complained and since it was brought up on the meeting, DVC needs to come out and say something. Could be a small status like we have reached out to owners with a total of 50,000 points which we believe are running a commercial enterprise. Then people would know and management will get a small pat on the shoulder for good work.

 

[nalababybear]

I agree, and to further that point...

I think, the smaller scale stuff is adding up to at least a big a problem as the handful of LLCs we all want shut down. Thanks to the explosion of the third party rental market, we are looking at literally thousands of confirmed reservations listed for rent at any given time.

There is a lot of talk about "losing flexibility" if Disney cracks down on renting. I believe the opposite. If Disney cracks down on renting, my flexibility in using my membership will improve.

When my 10 year old is in college and I am stuck in a spaceship maybe I'll regret this line of thinking though....

Yes, you will.
Timeshares are 50 year commits. Even resale it's a 30+ years of commitment. The saving grace right now is that people can get out with a relative tolerable haircut if they bought Direct points. This is NOT true for any other timeshare system, and Disney knows that.

My bet is there's A LOT of members that bide their time and bridge usage between kids and grandkids. We're one of them for sure. We can easily resale and wait 10 years to get back into the system IF we wanted to again -- with a bit of friction to do that.

Or we can stay and enjoy the simplicity of the program, rent out the points as a bridging finance, and DVC administration is stable without managing all those points churn and inquiries needing to be fielded with new resale memberships coming in hitting the phones and chat -- all at the same flat fee.

It's not a simple -- just get rid of renting. Each action can have significant consequences. Who would have thought changing away from lottery and booking end of 11months would lead to significant walking and spec booking at 11months+7 days? And that's just two simple rule changes.

DVC is unique. It's also a relatively fragile ecosystem that has decades of built it decisions

I would be surprised if DVC board makes significant wide sweeping changes that would put the risk of bringing down their sweetheart cash engine.

Regardless, it's their decision to make, us addicted folk just keep forking our dollars...until a decision/situataion breaks our addiction and Disney fever.

 

[Nabas]

I would therefore say that no one is to blame and no one is misusing the system when it comes to walking.

I agree but want to add something.

Florida law allows the managing entity to determine how timeshare reservations are made as long as the method is in the best interests of members “as a whole”.

My assumption is that the (vast?) majority of members are not walking.

Therefore, Disney has the authority to implement changes to curb walking.

 

[nalababybear]

....I think DVC will make no major change, and possibly put on a good show for a while, until they realize how much manpower and CM time it takes from their 12% cut of the budget. OR they will make only very minor changes that are simple and less costly to enforce, but have no big impact on the perceived problem, and some people will still be complaining when they can't get that AKV value studio for Christmas, New Year, Easter or Spring Break, or Marathon Weekends.

This is a good simplified decision tree of what I would be playing out in the Csuites. The question is where is the edict coming from to make the change --- DVC board vs further up the food chain in main corporate?

If DVC board, they will be keen on keeping DVC looking pretty
If higher up, make less renting as impacting our other operations.

I don't believe DVC board really cares about the loud membership squawking unless they find it benefits them financially to make the change.

 

[Sandisw]

I expect crackdowns to be obvious.

For example, currently there’s a website with well over 100 confirmed Boardwalk Standard View Studio reservations. I expect most of these to disappear, with a bunch of Boardwalk availability suddenly appearing in the DVC booking tool.

If the crackdown isn’t obvious, then what’s the point?

Well, you are assuming that all 100 of those are owned by the same owner that would be part of the crackdown....but I will assume that is the case.....

Those reservations can't be canceled unless they are in the names of others.....and DVC may not even force the owner to cancel all of them, just the ones they feel turns it over the limit....especially when there is a good chance that these exist within multiple memberships.

Add in the waitlist and constant stalking that people do, if these are representative of different dates, they may not show up like you assume.....

Now, if what you are assuming is true, you may find fewer rentals for that owner, but I simply don't think you are going to see a major impact on the market because they did state at the meeting that commerical renting is not a common practice...

I guess we will see!

 

[lowlight]

I highly recommend everyone write to Shannon Sakaske at shannon.sakaske@disney.com to let him know your feelings on walking and renting. You could also snail mail him or Stephanie Young at:
1851 Community Drive
Lake Buena Vista, FL 32830

If a system supports a specific behavior, then IMO it's allowed. In this case walking is not specifically dis-allowed, but also not mentioned as something that is allowed. However normally only behavior which is not allowed is mentioned in the rules.

There are a limited number of DVC reservations, ADR’s, LL’s etc to go around. Things are ok when people share, and things are even ok when just a few people hoard. Things go bad when everyone grabs everything they can get their hands on. That’s where we are headed and why those who have been hoarding are upset having gone unnoticed for so long. I can, by the rules, make 5 ADRs a day and cancel them 2 hours before dining. People do that every day. If everyone does it, it ruins Disney World. You don’t agree that something can be in the rules and yet bad for everyone at the same time?

 

[Sandisw]

I agree but want to add something.

Florida law allows the managing entity to determine how timeshare reservations are made as long as the method is in the best interests of members “as a whole”.

My assumption is that the (vast?) majority of members are not walking.

Therefore, Disney has the authority to implement changes to curb walking.

They do have that ability....and the DVC membership agreement as well as other aspects of the POS make that clear. But, it states that the home resort rules and regulations must include both the produres and limitations for booking and cancelation.

So, to penalize owners for walking, based on the terms of the contract that that infomation needs to be included, they have to amend the home rules and regulations to specifically alter memeber that a limitation exists.

Right now, we enjoy unlimited modifications without penalty 31 days or more because DVC has chosen not to include limitations within the rules, which the membership agreement requires them to do. .....if they want to be able to enforce something related to the word "desired" check in, then they have to include that in the rules as well.

Until that happens, walking is not against the rules as written.....they must be updated to include it. But, you are correct that nothing is preventing DVC from doing that if they decide that they want the booking, modifiying, and canceling rules and limitations to be different.....which is why the board did state they are open to considering rules changes

 

[Sandisw]

My understanding was that the board said something like "Hopefully we won't have this discussion next year"

If my understanding is correct then DVC needs to come out with some sort of statement or whatever, otherwise they will have the same discussion next year. If people hear nothing they will start to ask.

They did state that so you know what? You are right, maybe they will update information to members! Good catch!!!

 

[lowlight]

Or we can stay and enjoy the simplicity of the program, rent out the points as a bridging finance, and DVC administration is stable without

I’d be looking for a backup plan if I were you.

 

[xdan0920]

Yes, you will.
Timeshares are 50 year commits. Even resale it's a 30+ years of commitment. The saving grace right now is that people can get out with a relative tolerable haircut if they bought Direct points. This is NOT true for any other timeshare system, and Disney knows that.

My bet is there's A LOT of members that bide their time and bridge usage between kids and grandkids. We're one of them for sure. We can easily resale and wait 10 years to get back into the system IF we wanted to again -- with a bit of friction to do that.

Or we can stay and enjoy the simplicity of the program, rent out the points as a bridging finance, and DVC administration is stable without managing all those points churn and inquiries needing to be fielded with new resale memberships coming in hitting the phones and chat -- all at the same flat fee.

It's not a simple -- just get rid of renting. Each action can have significant consequences. Who would have thought changing away from lottery and booking end of 11months would lead to significant walking and spec booking at 11months+7 days? And that's just two simple rule changes.

DVC is unique. It's also a relatively fragile ecosystem that has decades of built it decisions

I would be surprised if DVC board makes significant wide sweeping changes that would put the risk of bringing down their sweetheart cash engine.

Regardless, it's their decision to make, us addicted folk just keep forking our dollars...until a decision/situataion breaks our addiction and Disney fever.

I won’t, it was a joke.

You keep stating these things as facts, and they aren’t facts. You think if Disney restricts renting the whole house of cards will come down. That’s your opinion, it’s most certainly not a fact.

 

[Nabas]

Well, you are assuming that all 100 of those are owned by the same owner that would be part of the crackdown....but I will assume that is the case.....

Those reservations can't be canceled unless they are in the names of others.....and DVC may not even force the owner to cancel all of them, just the ones they feel turns it over the limit....especially when there is a good chance that these exist within multiple memberships.

Add in the waitlist and constant stalking that people do, if these are representative of different dates, they may not show up like you assume.....

Now, if what you are assuming is true, you may find fewer rentals for that owner, but I simply don't think you are going to see a major impact on the market because they did state at the meeting that commerical renting is not a common practice...

I guess we will see!

Disney previously suggested they were looking for a pattern over the past 12 months. Presumably these current spec reservations are in the owner’s name.

IMO, the question is, what have these owners been doing for the previous 12 months?

Last year, a DVC rental site had over 300 confirmed AKV Value Studio reservations. Even if split across a handful of DVC members, this suggests to me a pattern of commercial renting.

 

[kboo]

Many were like me and I think quite a few of us who rented prior to buying into DVC. If the rental market was higher priced thus a reflection of higher demand and less supply, then more annual Disney vacationers would purchase DVC. At first that may point to resale contracts, but it would also eventually push towards Direct as well. Cause and effect.

Only on p 4 but had to respond that this is exactly how we got sucked in. Or rather, it started with a cash stay at BWV in a studio ($199 a night or something) that they then "upgraded" us to a 1br. That was our first exposure to DVC and .... 1,001 points later I'm planning to use DVC as part of my retirement.

 

[Judique]

I highly recommend everyone write to Shannon Sakaske at shannon.sakaske@disney.com to let him know your feelings on walking and renting. You could also snail mail him or Stephanie Young at:
1851 Community Drive
Lake Buena Vista, FL 32830




There are a limited number of DVC reservations, ADR’s, LL’s etc to go around. Things are ok when people share, and things are even ok when just a few people hoard. Things go bad when everyone grabs everything they can get their hands on. That’s where we are headed and why those who have been hoarding are upset having gone unnoticed for so long. I can, by the rules, make 5 ADRs a day and cancel them 2 hours before dining. People do that every day. If everyone does it, it ruins Disney World. You don’t agree that something can be in the rules and yet bad for everyone at the same time?

Any chance the use of bots could be added to this?

 

[nalababybear]

I’d be looking for a backup plan if I were you.

Similarly plan on squeaking loudly this time next year on lack of availability and specs being posted by owners.

We love Disney, but will adjust our spending habits and patterns with Disney as dictated by rules that they set forward. We've done it with our travel. We've done it with our passes/tickets. We've done it with our touring and eating festivals. We've done it with CAG/DAS revamps. We'll do it with DVC.

The reality is Disney is a corporation out to make money. They respond to the bottom line as they should. I'm glad they provide a product that speaks to our family and much of their corporate citizen decisions align with ours along the way. We will support that as we remain happy and financially makes sense and pivot when it doesn't.

Our DVC exit plan is easy and in place from Day 1 of purchase.

Life is too complex to sweat make it more complex, and will this person stop spreading the about how easy and great DVC is if we exit because of its complexity? Yeah, we will and that'll be on Disney. Their decision.

Ours too are lock and loaded and ready to go.

In the meantime, will be going next week!