DVC plans to target commercial renters

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For example, a DVC rental website is listing a confirmed Feb 25 AKV Value Studio for $384. A Value Studio for that date requires 12 points. $384 / 12 = $32 per point

A May 7 AKV-Value room is listed for $298 (8 points). $298 / 8 = $37.25 per point

A September 7 AKV-Value room is listed for $301 (7 points). $301 / 7 = $43 per point

It's not uncommon for certain DVC rental sites to list AKV-Value and BWV-Standard room for rates that exceed $30 per point.
You can't really use the third party rental sites like that for the average renter though. The member using those sites would be getting maybe $20 of that. The only instance where the member would be getting all of the $$$ from those third party rental sites would be when the site owners themselves own the contracts, which is one of the things most of us are definitely against, and I would think DVC is looking into those specifically.

I'm sure there are some members on facebook and the like that are renting for similar numbers, but IDK how much volume goes through those vs the dedicated DVC rental sites
 
And how many rooms are value and standard in the entire membership of DVC and are rentals too? Not significant enough to move policies and speak and use as general rules is the point.

Most rental transaction live in the 16-25 per point range. I bet most folk are actually okay with that and most members are so too when they need to dip into the market or need relief of points that they have for that year.

If want to disrupt things because one is upset you can't get a value room at AKL, the cure can be really worse the ailment.
 
You can't really use the third party rental sites like that for the average renter though. The member using those sites would be getting maybe $20 of that. The only instance where the member would be getting all of the $$$ from those third party rental sites would be when the site owners themselves own the contracts, which is one of the things most of us are definitely against, and I would think DVC is looking into those specifically.

I'm sure there are some members on facebook and the like that are renting for similar numbers, but IDK how much volume goes through those vs the dedicated DVC rental sites
A lot of the listings on these sites are not the typical set up of when a member is using them as a 3rd party to help rent points. Many here have high suspicions that the broker actually owns thousands and thousands of points of their own to rent out.
 
A lot of the listings on these sites are not the typical set up of when a member is using them as a 3rd party to help rent points. Many here have high suspicions that the broker actually owns thousands and thousands of points of their own to rent out.
It's pretty well just known there are several super owners who buy, rent, strip, sell. Buy transfers and flip. And all host sales and rentals too.

Disney clearly knows these folk too.

Is that the only issue at hand at play by the mention of this at the meeting? Maybe. Maybe not.
 

Wow! How many points did you have at that point? Or were you in a use it or lose it situation?

Though thinking about it my mom will have spent about 5 weeks at Disney this year on various trips and we like our space. Maybe that doesn’t seem like a lot after all. 🙂
We had over 600. Not really that many points, but we had purchased a couple loaded contracts which gave us an overage.
 
Here’s the issue:

You have 1000 points. You rent out 600 of them every year in 2-3 spec rentals for units you get ~$30 a point for. You use this income to pay the MF’s and also to pay for your yearly family trip. In your mind, you aren’t a commercial renter and aren’t part of the problem, you’re just a personal owner offsetting their expenses. I disagree. The amount of owners doing this is likely wildly underestimated in these threads, but they usually self identify if you know what to look for in responses.

As pointed out though is that what is not allowed in the contracts is using DVC as a business.

I don’t know if even this counts as creating a business…it certainly doesn’t IMO and I would be shocked to see DVC define it this way.

They certainly didn’t seem like they want to come down on owners who rent.
 
Some of you guys really are funny believing rentals routinely bring in $30 per point. Just look over at the Disboards rental forum. I get folk not liking renting out. Acknowledge the typical rates is part being honest about it too.

I have been tracking spec rentals on most of the websites, forums and FB groups I could find for the past 18 months. $30 a point isn’t a stretch depending on the room, resort and time of year. Is it the majority of all owners? No. Is it the majority of the type of owners I specified? I believe so. Their goal is to rent the majority of their points to pay MF and fund one large trip a year with no money out of pocket. Are you that type of owner? Only you know…

Whether it’s against the rules isn’t for us to decide, it’s up to DVC, but personally I think it falls under for profit commercial usage. There are many of these owners on Disboards, that’s all I’m saying.
 
And how many rooms are value and standard in the entire membership of DVC and are rentals too? Not significant enough to move policies and speak and use as general rules is the point.
I guess it all is based on what you mean by significant.

There are 18 DS values units at AKV JH and more than 2% of their entire annual allocation is currently for rent on one site. A DS in another resort has almost 6% of their annual allocation of night currently for rent on one site.
 
I guess it all is based on what you mean by significant.

There are 18 DS values units at AKV JH and more than 2% of their entire annual allocation is currently for rent on one site. A DS in another resort has almost 6% of their annual allocation of night currently for rent on one site.

And if any of those are for rent by an individual owner vs an owner who is running a business it puts them in the acceptable column for renting.

That is what DVC will be looking at. And why I do not see them deciding that you are running a business because you rent certain rooms over others.
 
I have been tracking spec rentals on most of the websites, forums and FB groups I could find for the past 18 months. $30 a point isn’t a stretch depending on the room, resort and time of year. Is it the majority of all owners? No. Is it the majority of the type of owners I specified? I believe so. Their goal is to rent the majority of their points to pay MF and fund one large trip a year with no money out of pocket. Are you that type of owner? Only you know…

Whether it’s against the rules isn’t for us to decide, it’s up to DVC, but personally I think it falls under for profit commercial usage. There are many of these owners on Disboards, that’s all I’m saying.
Representing $30 per pt as the typical rate IS a stretch.

Not sure why you're spending time tracking something you'd never do or participate in aside the hope that alienating a sizable number of Disboard/DVC members so what -- you can get a higher chance of grabbing a value studio at 800AM? Okay.
 
Representing $30 per pt as the typical rate IS a stretch.

Not sure why you're spending time tracking something you'd never do or participate in aside the hope that alienating a sizable number of Disboard/DVC members so what -- you can get a higher chance of grabbing a value studio at 800AM? Okay.

The biggest point of debate when it comes to commercial renting is "what defines commercial renting". You are being quite pointed in your responses, which leads me to believe this may be how you operate your DVC membership business (renting points for maximum profit reservations to cover dues and your personal trips). I'm not the DVC police knocking on your door, I just opined that I believe this type of activity is commercial in nature. Ultimately, what DVC sees as a pattern of activity is what matters and my opinion is as worthwhile as a speck of dust in space- but I still get one whether it alienates people or not.
 
The biggest point of debate when it comes to commercial renting is "what defines commercial renting". You are being quite pointed in your responses, which leads me to believe this may be how you operate your DVC membership business (renting points for maximum profit reservations to cover dues and your personal trips). I'm not the DVC police knocking on your door, I just opined that I believe this type of activity is commercial in nature. Ultimately, what DVC sees as a pattern of activity is what matters and my opinion is as worthwhile as a speck of dust in space- but I still get one whether it alienates people or not.
Lol. I've been quite open how we rent our reservations when we don't use them since we are local and just don't go every weekend and certainly2 not at the highest price point...and certainly never getting 30 per pt.

You're right. Our opinions can be viewed that. Love thy neighbor goes further imho.

We only care what Disney thinks and does and will stay within whatever parameters they set forth. Will it result in selling some contracts? Perhaps, if Disney puts in constraints that make it hard to justify ownership and makes dvc just another timeshare company
 
Perhaps, if Disney puts in constraints that make it hard to justify ownership and makes dvc just another timeshare company

Does your expectation of DVC revolve around more than owning points and using them to book rooms for yourself and family/friends? It sounds to me like you intentionally bought extra points to rent, and if limitations are put on them you will sell some or all of them. To me, that is the definition of commercial activity, it isn’t a judgment on you personally.
 
Does your expectation of DVC revolve around more than owning points and using them to book rooms for yourself and family/friends? It sounds to me like you intentionally bought extra points to rent, and if limitations are put on them you will sell some or all of them. To me, that is the definition of commercial activity, it isn’t a judgment on you personally.
Really doesn't matter your definition, opinion nor judgement -- you do you.

As reviewed upthread, it's been hotly debated here on Disboards of the the financial benefit of this vs simply putting the principle into an index fund and use those earning to pay for additional usage. SP500 is up over 20% this year and on average 8%+.

I buy to use and have a relative uncertainty of visiting timing -- hence needing typical 3 reservations that result in a local stay due to our family's schedule. With VGC, this is a point heavy proposition to secure those; but worthwhile over the hotel side stays -- so we do it.

The bonus is the ability to rent relatively easily instead of canceling and rebooking for the next year. This does necessitate higher point in rotations. We're fine with that with the current set of rules and processes. If that changes, we'll adjust too. Not a big deal -- not the first time Disney does pivots.
 
I don't currently do that, but I could see myself wanting to do something like it in the future for years that I don't want to use all of my points, and I would like to reserve that option. Maybe not the $ per point max but at $20 something per point.
I would be surprised if, after DVD explained that they were instituting the limit because for-profit renters are scooping up almost all the best value rooms 12 or more months in advance, the average DVC member wouldn’t be willing to vote to cap rentals at 1.5x or 2x the prior year’s membership fees. Enough to cover dues and part of your buy in if you have to, but not enough that people buy contracts for profit.
As you say, I (and I assume many others) believe that that would fall under personal vacation use. At the end of the day, if you are using ALL of your points (and any money earned from renting some of those points) for either stays at Disney, to pay for stuff at Disney, or to pay for your alternate vacation choice, that IS a personal vacation use. In the end there has been no NET money received and it would be very difficult to consider that a commercial enterprise.
This is a misunderstanding. If you are routinely using your contract to make money to pay for other things (including Disney stays and dues on other contracts), it definitionally commercial renting (it may be less clear if it’s a commercial enterprise, but it could be depending on exact language of the contract. Trading the room you have for a different travel product may have a similar outcome but it would be treated differently by law, much like how two people spontaneously exchanging holiday gifts is not taxable but two people negotiating to swap items or services is a taxable exchange.

Some of you guys really are funny believing rentals routinely bring in $30 per point. Just look over at the Disboards rental forum. I get folk not liking renting out. Acknowledge the typical rates is part being honest about it too.
I think you are conflating “routine across the whole membership” with “routine for commercial renters who have systems designed to optimize for maximum profit.” I don’t think most DVC owners are doing better than $20/rental, but my guess is the more you are focused on profits (commercial activity) the higher your median rental per point metric will be. I would bet that the average owner who only rents points when something comes up unexpectedly clears far less than $18/pt average, but it would be that the big rental players are above $25/pt and the most sophisticated ones could clear $30/pt as a median rate.
It's pretty well just known there are several super owners who buy, rent, strip, sell. Buy transfers and flip. And all host sales and rentals too.

Disney clearly knows these folk too.

Is that the only issue at hand at play by the mention of this at the meeting? Maybe. Maybe not.
I agree with you, and those are the ones who are likely securing the highest rental profits, which is why it’s worth thinking about a cap that is generous enough to cover dues and a bit extra for buy in costs but not so generous people are buying points to make money.

One final thought (not addressed to the quoted post above)— it’s easy for people with a lot of excess points or who don’t like room types that get walked/blocked by renters to say “why upset my ability to do whatever I want just because standard studios at BWV are rarely available or because you can’t get xyz room for months AB+C” but Disney markets these room categories as being available to owners and some people rely on that to buy 25-75 point contracts (I am not one of them), only to be frustrated that the rooms marketed to them is almost never available to the average owner. This is unfair to those owners and a potential legal risk for DVD.
I would like to get rid of commercial renting entirely (or at least before the 4 month mark), but if Disney doesn’t have the ability/interest to do that, putting limits on per point rental costs would probably help free up some of the best value rooms in favor of the rooms that appeal to renters (higher point chart rooms) and discourage people from buying points purely to rent them out.
 
I would be surprised if, after DVD explained that they were instituting the limit because for-profit renters are scooping up almost all the best value rooms 12 or more months in advance, the average DVC member wouldn’t be willing to vote to cap rentals at 1.5x or 2x the prior year’s membership fees. Enough to cover dues and part of your buy in if you have to, but not enough that people buy contracts for profit.

This is a misunderstanding. If you are routinely using your contract to make money to pay for other things (including Disney stays and dues on other contracts), it definitionally commercial renting (it may be less clear if it’s a commercial enterprise, but it could be depending on exact language of the contract. Trading the room you have for a different travel product may have a similar outcome but it would be treated differently by law, much like how two people spontaneously exchanging holiday gifts is not taxable but two people negotiating to swap items or services is a taxable exchange.


I think you are conflating “routine across the whole membership” with “routine for commercial renters who have systems designed to optimize for maximum profit.” I don’t think most DVC owners are doing better than $20/rental, but my guess is the more you are focused on profits (commercial activity) the higher your median rental per point metric will be. I would bet that the average owner who only rents points when something comes up unexpectedly clears far less than $18/pt average, but it would be that the big rental players are above $25/pt and the most sophisticated ones could clear $30/pt as a median rate.

I agree with you, and those are the ones who are likely securing the highest rental profits, which is why it’s worth thinking about a cap that is generous enough to cover dues and a bit extra for buy in costs but not so generous people are buying points to make money.

One final thought (not addressed to the quoted post above)— it’s easy for people with a lot of excess points or who don’t like room types that get walked/blocked by renters to say “why upset my ability to do whatever I want just because standard studios at BWV are rarely available or because you can’t get xyz room for months AB+C” but Disney markets these room categories as being available to owners and some people rely on that to buy 25-75 point contracts (I am not one of them), only to be frustrated that the rooms marketed to them is almost never available to the average owner. This is unfair to those owners and a potential legal risk for DVD.
I would like to get rid of commercial renting entirely (or at least before the 4 month mark), but if Disney doesn’t have the ability/interest to do that, putting limits on per point rental costs would probably help free up some of the best value rooms in favor of the rooms that appeal to renters (higher point chart rooms) and discourage people from buying points purely to rent them out.
@HyperspaceMountainPilot great.points. looking at the rental threads here on disboards it's readily easy to get a feeling of 18-22 points for rooms that aren't distressed points. So average would say higher than a break even and close to the 5% margin

One could argue availability for club rooms or 1br at poly or vdh that are relatively hard to come by being studio heavy rooms. Heck, cut out all non owner named reservations and I bet vgc would still be highly.competitive in Sept and Oct.

Per.pt caps would be interesting but unless.some reporting/payment program is required by Disney, that would be extremely hard to even fathom to realize
 
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