DVC called me on email about RCI and II!

[colinsdad]

When I found out II was being dropped by Disney I had to come in to take a look at what everyone was saying. I too got my II catalog yesterday, and Disney is still in it. I'm not sure why II would have done this if they knew it was coming.

I'm not a DVC member, but as an II member I can say that I've been able to trade into DVC very easily the last few years. After staying mostly offsite at the Marriots, Sheratons, etc..., the DVC weeks were really showing up on II and I was jumping on them. I'm thinking maybe it had something to do with more DVC inventory floating around with all the new construction. SSR is huge and was available often with II, and now with all the building out with AKL, BLT and the Treehouses, I was honestly licking my chops at the idea of getting a DVC in trade pretty much at will.

While I used to only be able to find Old Key West on II, in the last year I've been able to find more "premium locations" for 2008 and 2009. I've heard all the rumors about RCI renting out the good stuff, so maybe this is Disney's way of keeping II members like myself out who go on the cheap and getting us to buy into DVC or pay rack.

I've traded my 1BR Timehare into Old Key West (for a 1BR 2006), Boardwalk Villas (Studio 2008), and Beach Club Villas in 2009 (1BR).

Realizing I won't be able to book any Disney after December 31st, just today I booked a week at Disney's Wilderness Lodge for May of 2009 (Studio) using an II bonus week of all things. $199 for a week at Disney just for depositing my timeshare with II. I didn't give up anything. A normal exchange would have cost me my 1BR and $139 with II.

Personally, I don't know why any DVC member would trade their weeks into any company. I've looked into DVC. You guys are dropping serious dough on those points and MF's. You're probably lucky to break even on a trade.

While I truly am bummed out that we're being dropped, I hope it works out for you guys seeing what I've read about RCI.

It looks if I want to stay at the park I'll be back at the values.

 

[Dean]

When I found out II was being dropped by Disney I had to come in to take a look at what everyone was saying. I too got my II catalog yesterday, and Disney is still in it. I'm not sure why II would have done this if they knew it was coming.

Two reasons. They almost certainly didn't know it was coming in time as these things go to print MONTHS prior to release. The other is that technically they are still available at this time. My guess is they knew it was a possibility but didn't know it was for certain until shortly before DVC announced it, maybe a few weeks or a little more.

 

[tjkraz]

Two reasons. They almost certainly didn't know it was coming in time as these things go to print MONTHS prior to release. The other is that technically they are still available at this time. My guess is they knew it was a possibility but didn't know it was for certain until shortly before DVC announced it, maybe a few weeks or a little more.

I agree.

I'm sure II has dealt with these sorts of year-end negotiation issues before. Bottom line is they aren't going to alter their print schedule pending the results of any one negotiation--at least not one that represents a total of 8 properties.

 

[culli]

I'm not a DVC member, but as an II member I can say that I've been able to trade into DVC very easily the last few years. After staying mostly offsite at the Marriots, Sheratons, etc..., the DVC weeks were really showing up on II and I was jumping on them. I'm thinking maybe it had something to do with more DVC inventory floating around with all the new construction. SSR is huge and was available often with II, and now with all the building out with AKL, BLT and the Treehouses, I was honestly licking my chops at the idea of getting a DVC in trade pretty much at will.

While I used to only be able to find Old Key West on II, in the last year I've been able to find more "premium locations" for 2008 and 2009. I've heard all the rumors about RCI renting out the good stuff, so maybe this is Disney's way of keeping II members like myself out who go on the cheap and getting us to buy into DVC or pay rack.

I've traded my 1BR Timehare into Old Key West (for a 1BR 2006), Boardwalk Villas (Studio 2008), and Beach Club Villas in 2009 (1BR).

Realizing I won't be able to book any Disney after December 31st, just today I booked a week at Disney's Wilderness Lodge for May of 2009 (Studio) using an II bonus week of all things. $199 for a week at Disney just for depositing my timeshare with II. I didn't give up anything. A normal exchange would have cost me my 1BR and $139 with II.

Personally, I don't know why any DVC member would trade their weeks into any company. I've looked into DVC. You guys are dropping serious dough on those points and MF's. You're probably lucky to break even on a trade.

While I truly am bummed out that we're being dropped, I hope it works out for you guys seeing what I've read about RCI.

It looks if I want to stay at the park I'll be back at the values.

Totally agree with you and as a DVC owner but also a II trader I'm bummed. Not because I use DVC to trade out but because I use II to trade in!!! I have used two AC's to get me a 1br BW in Jan and a 1br BC in June......then used my deposit to get add an additional week to my June trip in a 1br at SSR. Total cost for 3 1br units including my traded units MF is less than $1600 and that included the crazy $95 fee DVC charges people that trade in to their resorts. So I'm a big loser that I can't use II to trade into DVC, so yes I think it is crazy for people to buy DVC with the thoughts of trading out. I understand the occasional trade out (which still is a loss) but there really are better ways. I love my DVC points but I bought them to use only at WDW and for the most part can pick and choose my unit size, how long I want to stay, and where....that is the risk you take with trading in is you hope you can find something when you want to go or you are SOL.

But I will supplement my DVC stays now with some awesome Marriott stays or use Wyndham points to stay at Bonnet Creek.

 

[gray52]

Members did not vote when DVC reallocated the OKW point charts

I'm newer to DVC and this is the first I'm hearing of this... can someone please fill me in on what this was all about?

 

[Dean]

I'm newer to DVC and this is the first I'm hearing of this... can someone please fill me in on what this was all about?

Back about 1995 they adjusted the points for the then existing resorts. It was essentially an increase for Adventure with minimal alteration otherwise as it was spread out pretty well. Not a big deal unless you're a snow bird and bought to come during the winter and spend a longer time. The increase for that time was around 15%.

I don't think DVC members have ever voted on anything. The closest I can think of was a membership wide survey which gave us things like the opportunity to buy towel packs rather than get extra towels/soap, etc for free.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

think this was more Jim Lewis than DVC saying what was happening.

we use to vote on everything.

except when they changed from RCI to II. that was done without a member vote.

so guess they think it is okay to change back.

It just seem to be last minute - meet someone at a party - type decision.'

It may have been given lots of though. but lots of though doesn't happen in Dec with switch in Jan - too bad if you wanted something in II than RCI does not have.

the whole thing seems last minute.

You know, it was pretty "last minute" now that I think about it and that brings up an interesting (well, interesting to me, at least) twist we may not have considered. Maybe II was tired of messing with DVD and all its nuances. Maybe it wasn't even Disney's decision.

Maybe DVD had to punt and RCI was it's fallback. Hmmm...

Might now be true but it's an interesting twist, at least to me.

 

[Brian Noble]

The only thing "last minute" about it was the announcement. You can bet your last Mickeybar that discussions with both companies had been going on for quite some time. 135,000 members is a nice chunk of people. Normally, membership in these exchanges is $70-$90 per year. Even if the exchange company is paid only about $10/member for membership, that's still $1M and change. Add in the other considerations that I'm sure Disney extracted from RCI, and it's a very serious decision for the developer, indeed.

I can imagine II might have gotten a little complacent, because at first glance, II certainly offers more to the Membership than RCI does in terms of brand-name affiliations. But, for a brand name like Disney, I have to believe that II had more to lose by the switch than DVC did.

 

[LIFERBABE]

The only thing "last minute" about it was the announcement. You can bet your last Mickeybar that discussions with both companies had been going on for quite some time. 135,000 members is a nice chunk of people. Normally, membership in these exchanges is $70-$90 per year. Even if the exchange company is paid only about $10/member for membership, that's still $1M and change. Add in the other considerations that I'm sure Disney extracted from RCI, and it's a very serious decision for the developer, indeed.

I can imagine II might have gotten a little complacent, because at first glance, II certainly offers more to the Membership than RCI does in terms of brand-name affiliations. But, for a brand name like Disney, I have to believe that II had more to lose by the switch than DVC did.

I agree, DVC has been in negotiations for a while. It is a chunk of change that DVD has to pay for affiliation and that is why JL wanted to eliminate exchanging years ago because the majority of members do not exchange.

Someone posted weeks ago that the new 2009 planners would not be issued until Spring. DVC knew there would be major changes because they did not go to print with the planners like II did. It may work for II, but would be bad form for DVC to issue a planner with that much misinformation

 

[Brian Noble]

that is why JL wanted to eliminate exchanging years ago because the majority of members do not exchange.

I know you keep saying this, and I know it's from a direct conversation you've had with him, but this just isn't the way DVD has been behaving in their marketing materials. For example, the Orlando Sentinel article on the swtich mentions this:

The moves comes with Disney Vacation Club working to lure new customers by convincing them that it offers more than access to Disney-branded resorts and parks. The company has made the exchange feature the centerpiece of a television-advertising campaign it launched earlier this year.

The DVC blogger at the OrSen also has archived a Word document with more details about this marketing push, and it's emphasis on the broader options available to those considering Membership:
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/business_tourism_aviation/files/DVCcampaign.doc

That not many actually do exchange is almost beside the point. It's always been a sales point, and its increasingly being emphasized.

 

[LIFERBABE]

I know you keep saying this, and I know it's from a direct conversation you've had with him, but this just isn't the way DVD has been behaving in their marketing materials. For example, the Orlando Sentinel article on the swtich mentions this:


The DVC blogger at the OrSen also has archived a Word document with more details about this marketing push, and it's emphasis on the broader options available to those considering Membership:
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/business_tourism_aviation/files/DVCcampaign.doc

That not many actually do exchange is almost beside the point. It's always been a sales point, and its increasingly being emphasized.

Brian, I agree with you and have explained before, that JL did not get the support from his staff to eliminate exchanging, his people fought hard to keep it.

His statements date back to 2005 and since then, DVC has pushed exchanging hard and began to make it the focus of their marketing so everything you say is correct about recent activity. This activity is the result of trying to make exchanging more profitable so that it is not cut from the program entirely. I know many of us have softened our view of exchanging and are beginning to recognize it has a place in DVC and it is not always suicide to use points to trade out so it is working.

All Im saying, is if you look at the bottom line, like JL did when he looked at Exchanging, it is not making money and most members do no use it.

Someone mentioned the switch to RCI is JL's doing. I rebutted that by stating the above. DVD has shown that just because they market something or push it, they will still change it on you. The fact we can no longer trade to Marriotts or Atlantis is evidence of that. The booking window change the fee changes etc. 1 minute it's the cornerstone of the program, the next minute there's an "enhancement" and it's gone.

This switch is good for DVC, because it could have been worse. I think this is the 1 area where JL's staff is fighting for the membership.

 

[Brian Noble]

I certainly agree: blaming (or, crediting) Jim for the switch just doesn't seem to hold water.

I wonder, though, if you asked him again today, whether his veiw of exchange would be different. DVC has been growing fast and furiously, but almost entirely on sales of the Orlando resorts, and almost entirely on sales to Disney theme park fanatics.

Eventually, there will be a limit---either on the number of resorts that WDW can profitably support given its theme park capacities, or on the number of Disney Fanatics who don't already own plenty of DVC. They just don't have the land to grow in the same way in Anaheim, and that leaves things like Hawaii for growth. And, history has shown that Disney is not going to be squaqrely in its comfort zone when it comes to marketing Hawaii.

But, one thing is for sure: Parks & Resorts has effectively become addicted to DVD's sales revenue stream, as it's a big contributor to the annual bottom line. Pushing the "other opportunities" is clearly a strategic decision made to continue to grow the product to new market segments, and I suspect that if Jim wants to keep his current job (or even get a better one within the company) he is absolutely behind this idea.

 

[spiceycat]

definitely disagreeing.

if DVC knew it would be changing - then why allowed the internet to have 2009 as II.

It still does
http://dvc.disney.go.com/dvc/member/memberLanding?id=ViewPointsChartsLandingPage

that is almost false advertising.

DVC lawyers are too smart to allow that to happen. IF THEY knew this was coming.

so from my side - DVC did not know.

II can be excused - the year DVC left RCI - RCI did the same thing.

DVC however if they knew this was coming - putting II on the internet is false advertisement. Especially since there was nothing in Sept/Oct - when some of the 2009 showed up.

Besides you are forgetting that DVC members have traded to II thru at least October of next year. Of course telling people that DVC may change to RCI would not have worked well. and everyone would know there was a change before DVC was ready to annouce it. Okay let that one pass

still DVC needs to get II off their internet site now - for 2009 and 2010.

---
though DVD was only the building part of DVC. to my knowledge it does nothing else.

 

[RobDoc]

...
That not many actually do exchange is almost beside the point. It's always been a sales point, and its increasingly being emphasized.

It would be interesting to see statistics about the number of members who have exchanged using the WP program. I know that annually the number is in the 3% range - but is that the same 3% each year or new members trying the exchange program each year? I'd guess there are some repeats, but that most of that 3% is members exchanging for the first time.

It would also be interesting to see the resorts exchanged into by DVC members since that would show whether the "top" II resorts have actually been readily accessible to DVC members or not (and could also have been a factor in switching back to RCI).

I agree that the exchange programs are a selling feature for DVC - even though few members use the World Passport program each year. If we add in the number of members using the Concierge Collection and Disney Collection (these are also exchanges) I believe the total exchange numbers would be much, much higher - possibly approaching 10-15% per year. Add in the number of members who make reservations at non-home DVC resorts and the "exchange" numbers rise even higher - possibly in the 50-60% range. All of these are exchanges and all are an integral component of the flexibility of DVC - and combined that is a strong sales tool.

Another statistic which would be interesting is the number of repeat exchangers into DVC resorts (and also how many of those were already DVC members at the time). If II was set up to allow the same members have better access into DVC, effectively shutting out many other II members, the RCI policy of allowing a resort to place restrictions on return exchanges may have been a factor in the change back to RCI. I'm certain that a number of exchangers purchased DVC as a result of staying in a DVC resort, but if the effective number of exchangers was skewed to allow multiple visits, DVC may have lost opportunity to sell to other exchangers. This again may change with the RCI relationship.

 

[RobDoc]

definitely disagreeing.

if DVC knew it would be changing - then why allowed the internet to have 2009 as II.

It still does
http://dvc.disney.go.com/dvc/member/memberLanding?id=ViewPointsChartsLandingPage

that is almost false advertising.

DVC lawyers are too smart to allow that to happen. IF THEY knew this was coming.

so from my side - DVC did not know.

II can be excused - the year DVC left RCI - RCI did the same thing.

DVC however if they knew this was coming - putting II on the internet is false advertisement. Especially since there was nothing in Sept/Oct - when some of the 2009 showed up.

Besides you are forgetting that DVC members have traded to II thru at least October of next year. Of course telling people that DVC may change to RCI would not have worked well. and everyone would know there was a change before DVC was ready to annouce it. Okay let that one pass

still DVC needs to get II off their internet site now - for 2009 and 2010.

---
though DVD was only the building part of DVC. to my knowledge it does nothing else.

The DVC contract with II was thru December 31, 2008. Any exchanges made by members made thru that date will be honored, including those exchanges for travel in 2009 or beyond. The fact that DVC still has II exchanges listed is NOT false advertising since there is still a contract to offer those trades. In fact, II is still the ONLY exchange provider for the World Passport collection and trades thru RCI cannot be made until after January 1, 2009. At this moment II members can also still exchange into DVC resorts - per the contractual agreement between II and DVC. I doubt any II exchanges can be made after December 31, 2008 but exchanges aleady made by II members will be honored for 2009. If DVC had removed it's II literature prior to January 1, it well could have been in violation of the contractual agreement with II - but it certainly is not "false advertising" to have promotional information available while the program is still in place.

The fact that DVC has not yet published the Member Guide suggests that they have known about this change for months since in the past DVC members have recieved the new books in October and they had to be printed months before that. I expect that DVC will have the new World Passport Collection information in the guidebooks and that the information is being compiled and readied for the printer at this time.

 

[Brian Noble]

Doc, these are all good questions.

I think, though, that if you look at the marketing DVD has been doing recently, you'll agree that there's been a big push to include "not-dripping-with-pixie-dust" options front and center in the materials. This would include Concierge, World Passport, the DVC resorts not connected to the theme parks, and even Adventures by Disney. But, not so much the Disney collection, DCL, or Orlando-area DVC resorts. The latter used to be the bread-and-butter of any DVC marketing material, but there has been a conscious switch away from them in the past year. For instance, I was very surprised at how little time the Travel Channel informercial from several months back spent on BLT and AKV, vs. other options for using points.

In the past, DVC owners were buying DVC almost exclusively for the theme park locations---and that's in part why VB and HHI ended up selling so poorly. It remains to be seen whether or not DVD is able to attract guests who don't view their DVC points as "almost always for visiting Mickey Mouse."

As for the frequent repeat inbounds---that's a good question. I think we'll know the answer when we see the details of the RCI arrangement. If DVD negotiated for a 1-in-4 rule, that will be only to support sales, because it lowers Member trade power by artificially reducing demand. If DVD did not negotiate such a restriction, then it won't be any more difficult for folks to find an el-cheapo week in RCI to trade in with, just as they found similar II weeks.

 

[spiceycat]

The DVC contract with II was thru December 31, 2008. Any exchanges made by members made thru that date will be honored, including those exchanges for travel in 2009 or beyond. The fact that DVC still has II exchanges listed is NOT false advertising since there is still a contract to offer those trades. In fact, II is still the ONLY exchange provider for the World Passport collection and trades thru RCI cannot be made until after January 1, 2009. At this moment II members can also still exchange into DVC resorts - per the contractual agreement between II and DVC. I doubt any II exchanges can be made after December 31, 2008 but exchanges aleady made by II members will be honored for 2009. If DVC had removed it's II literature prior to January 1, it well could have been in violation of the contractual agreement with II - but it certainly is not "false advertising" to have promotional information available while the program is still in place.

The fact that DVC has not yet published the Member Guide suggests that they have known about this change for months since in the past DVC members have recieved the new books in October and they had to be printed months before that. I expect that DVC will have the new World Passport Collection information in the guidebooks and that the information is being compiled and readied for the printer at this time.

Doc go look at the website/

I am not arguing 2008 - it has a right to put II out there for 2008.

It is 2009 - that I have a problem with - if DVC is going to RCI in 2009 - then then II should not be on the 2009 site. It is right now.

this needs to be removed as soon as possible. Nothing is better than saying II for 2009 when in fact it will be RCI. To me that is false advertising. they are advertising II when they will be only using RCI.

 

[RobDoc]

Doc go look at the website/

I am not arguing 2008 - it has a right to put II out there for 2008.

It is 2009 - that I have a problem with - if DVC is going to RCI in 2009 - then then II should not be on the 2009 site. It is right now.

this needs to be removed as soon as possible. Nothing is better than saying II for 2009 when in fact it will be RCI. To me that is false advertising. they are advertising II when they will be only using RCI.

They have to have 2009 dates on the site since they have ann obligation to accept exchange requests thru December 31 - both incoming and outgoing. I expect they will change the information in a timely fashion once their contract with II has ended, but until that time DVC has a responsibility to honor the agreement and they are doing so.

If anything, II may need to send out corrections to all of it's members if it will no longer provide trades into DVC resorts after January 1. At least DVC has not yet sent out any printed materials to it's members for the 2009 year and won't need to send any retractions. Making changes on the website will be an easy, quick and inexpensive thing to do. They could even add a disclaimer stating the II program ended on December 31 until they have new information in place on the site - thus far there is no mention of RCI on that page - only the current relationship with II. No false advertising at all.

 

[chris1gill]

About as possible as winning the lottery without buying a ticket, you simply find one on the sidewalk. At most would be that II gave up because they couldn't compete with II's offer. I have to think there will be more than we know for this decision to have been made. I'm hopeful that there will be options that members have not had before like non 7 day stays 10 months out, online access, getaway access, the ability to trade up in unit size and possibly cheaper stays. It will be very interesting to see the final product.

Apparently nobody told II, because in the '09 II trading book, Disney Resorts are listed....

I'm curious if RCI will put DVC inventory into their Extra Vacations, and sell the reservations for cash instead of letting people trade in. Of course when Extra Vacations aren't sold, they go into Last Call's...

 

[Brian Noble]

Unless Disney has rocks for brains, I would assume they negotiated for pricing control of any rental units. The very last thing they want is to have RCI undercutting their very successful rental business, and RCI provides this service to a few other places.

I think they had the same arrangement with II---the very few units that were in the Getaways pool at II, but not available for exchange, were always significantly more expensive than the "normal" getaway inventory, and comparable to something between your typical AP rate and rack. Even last-minute units that stuck around a while (like the week before Thanksgiving this year) didn't go into the bargain bin.