Drinking age

Regardless of age the whole liability thing is a nightmare TBH.

A lot is put on the bartender, and then refusing to serve someone can get them in trouble with the owner etc.. especially if its a regular.
The owner should always back up the bartender, but the don't always.

I've seen cases where someone came into a bar already drunk from a bar that kicked them out, ordered a drink and left, had an accident and the last bar they had a drink at is responsible.

In the case of DUI it also goes counts against the bar that last served them and has no idea they have been out drinking before hand. Its not always obvious in that initial interaction.
We were talking about minors and the 18-21 age time period with being with your parent. I wasn't talking about liability from a bartender or establishment's standpoint. I was talking about being responsible for the actions of your kid because when you're a minor that for the most part falls to the parents. But not when you are 18 where for the majority of situations it falls on the individual.

But I can understand what you're referring to. I think that might be a law enforcement by law enforcement/ordinance/law thing that varies from place to place. I would agree it would be terrible unfair for an establishment much less a bartender to be responsible for a drunk driver who didn't even have a drink at the bar or who had one without knowing how many prior drinks the person had. My grandmother was a functioning alcohol and would have been hard to tell when she was by most standards drunk unless she had a blood test. It sorta reminds me of the pub crawl we did in Aggieville years back. We didn't drive, we walked, but we were going into one place, ordering a drink, drinking it then walking right back out something that was extremely common to do that. In that sort of drinking nightlife culture how the bartenders would know where and how long ago your last drink was would not be possible.
 
once that person is considered an adult the liability falls on them as an individual
Yeah. that line sent me off on the tangent, I know, as seems like no one wants to take responsibility for their actions.

Ive seen bars just shut down because they were sued by someone who drank too much and they got into an accident.
That was a small hotel group - owned by a large chain - and ultimately they just outsourced their bars as it was not worth it.

In the end they can sue the bartender, let alone the bar.
 
Australia - drinking legal at 18, smoking at 16. My husband would prefer the drinking age moved to 21 but it will never happen as our adult age is 18 so can join armed forces, get married, vote, enter legal contracts etc from that time.
 
Australia - drinking legal at 18, smoking at 16. My husband would prefer the drinking age moved to 21 but it will never happen as our adult age is 18 so can join armed forces, get married, vote, enter legal contracts etc from that time.
That's what people said here, too, but then the insurance industry got involved and directed massive funding into lobbying for age 21, and Congress used extortion to get it passed: they withheld Federal highway maintenance and construction funds from any state that didn't raise the age limit.
 

Well, yes, that business about regarding alcohol as a sin is true in a large part of the US (most notably in the Bible Belt), but there are probably equally as many families and areas where it isn't regarded that way. And yes, a lot of *those* are in Irish-American communities, German-American communities, Italian-American communities, and Franco-American communities -- which, as it happens, are always where I've lived in the US (except for one year in Tulsa, where campaigns to quelch underage drinking were the most ubiquitous, FWIW.) Culturally, majority-Catholic and majority-Lutheran US communities don't tend to view alcohol itself as a sin at all, and never did. Being an irresponsible drunken eejit, however, is another thing altogether, but I don't want to delve too deeply into religious topics. (I love Jarlath Regan, too, but he *is* a comic playing stereotypes for laughs.)

I'm not suggesting that it's OK to be that cool parent who throws juvenile keggers; I had a friend with a parent like that, too; one who was a pretty far-gone alcoholic as it happens. That's clearly endangering minors, and I'm fine with that being punishable. However, as parents we are supposed to model and teach our kids responsible consumption behaviors, and I think it's more difficult to do that with our underage alcohol service laws as strict as they currently are in much of the US, because by the time they can legally drink in most states, even at home, they are already old enough to be largely out from under our parental authority. I think allowing a parent to buy a teen a glass of wine or beer as part of a family meal in a restaurant should never be an issue, or buying them a beer if they are out at a ball game together, or allowing light consumption for our own teens at home. Knowingly letting your kids, or someone else's, get stinking drunk in your own home or out of it was never a responsible thing, and I can tell you that my Irish immigrant parents would never have done so, nor would any of my aunts and uncles. In fact, they never drank like that, either, not even at weddings or wakes (in our village at home we're a family who are known for being notoriously lightweight -- we have a tendency to get maudlin and start singing early on, LOL). I was taught to know my limit and try to stick to it, in or out of Ireland. (And yes, a few times when away at college I did overindulge, but I was well aware that I was impaired, and knew to stay away from car keys, firearms, sharp objects, and smooth-talking men until the next morning -- when, of course, I regretted the headache *and* the singing!) Binge drinking is definitely bad, but finding out just how bad for the first time at 2am in a public place when you are a young adult with no parent around to help take care of you is also pretty bad. As my mother often told me when I was that age, "A big part of growing up is learning to understand the concept of moderation, and it's my job to help you do that." As it happens, my own kids are not fond of alcohol; the older one abstains completely because he doesn't like the feeling of being buzzed, and the younger one has yet to find a drink that doesn't taste to her like vinegar or lighter fluid. We did/do let them have a drink at home under supervision if they wish, and our liquor supply (kept in an unlocked cabinet) has never been raided.

As for the girl with the vodka in her cereal, that's way beyond the bounds of normal, and even the realm of risky youthful experimentation. It sounds to me like she was a closet alcoholic who just took her habit out into the open when she found herself in a place where it wasn't illegal for her to drink.
We had prohibition in early 1880s in KS in the state's constitution no less and up until 2019 we couldn't get beer more than 3.2% in grocery stores. You still can only get up to 6% now. No hard liquor no wine. I still just go to the liquor store if I want beer largely due to that. But even with that they still have the exemption for parents/minor children but of course it's still limited to 3.2%. The sin tax is 10% on alcohol but in truth that's not much different and in some areas around me less than normal sales tax. So yeah antiquated stuff has stuck around here for a very long time annoyingly so.

I think it's important for someone to understand and find their limits but I think saying "it's about moderation" especially in the context of a parent teaching their child may actually encourage risky behavior which also has health implications as well. Different ABV exist for things and they can impact someone differently. You can drive even off of one beer but still be impaired compared to no drink or as they say "buzzed driving is drunk driving". You can feel so differently after having a drink made with a stronger proof than you could with more weaker proof. And that's not to advocate for just drinking 1 shot of a stronger alcohol just so you can say you moderated yourself instead of having 2 shots of a weaker alcohol nor is the reverse the case where you can say you can have 2 shots of a weaker alcohol because you're moderating off of a higher proof of alcohol. Same goes for higher ABV of beer.

I think part of my viewpoint on the taboo aspect is also related to being more open about discussing alcohol in general not just about teaching the youth to figure out their limits. There are people on this very board (although I've mostly seen them hang out on the Disneyland side) who think if someone has a beer in their hands they are a drunkard who is destined to get drunk at Disney. Then there are people on the other side (admittedly I'm mostly speaking outside IRL as opposed to the Boards in this case) that think "why are you having just one beer". It shouldn't be taboo either way, meaning to have 1 beer or to have only 1 beer.

This push-pull between "my right as a parent to sanction choices for my kid" is a hard one and not one that I think is hard and fast but I largely don't disagree with a parent allowing their minor child to drink most especially when it's being done with discussing the various responsibilities that come with alcohol but when considering the impacts and issues others may experience (as Tony brought up) I think privately should be treated differently than publicly.
 
The establishment should absolutely have the choice to serve whomever they'd like. But you may have also fallen afoul of the fact that your daughter was in college so presumably over 18. An adult and not covered under the child alcohol laws in WI. Many of my wife's classmates had the same issue. When they were 17 they could have beer at the bar with their parents, but once they turned 18 they couldn't.
No, there is no law about people 18-21.

Here is the statute:
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/20...125.07(1)(a)1,attained the legal drinking age.

(1)  Alcohol beverages; restrictions relating to underage persons.
(a) Restrictions.
1. No person may procure for, sell, dispense or give away any alcohol beverages to any underage person not accompanied by his or her parent, guardian or spouse who has attained the legal drinking age.
2. No licensee or permittee may sell, vend, deal or traffic in alcohol beverages to or with any underage person not accompanied by his or her parent, guardian or spouse who has attained the legal drinking age.
3. No adult may knowingly permit or fail to take action to prevent the illegal consumption of alcohol beverages by an underage person on premises owned by the adult or under the adult's control. This subdivision does not apply to alcohol beverages used exclusively as part of a religious service.
4. No adult may intentionally encourage or contribute to a violation of sub. (4) (a) or (b).
 
My dad's side of the family is Jewish. It's been a long-standing tradition to give the kids wine on the holidays, starting with maybe a thimbleful for the little ones and graduating to slightly larger quantities over the years. At 13, you have your bar or bat mitzvah, and then you're an adult as far as Judaism is concerned. It's not unusual for the celebrant and their friends to learn all about overdoing it that night.

I think it's a really smart way to teach responsible consumption. Alcohol is part of the religious rituals and something to be savored, not binged. There's no "forbidden fruit" aspect to it. And if somebody wants to celebrate their newfound religious adulthood by getting wasted at their bar mitzvah, so what? There are plenty of safe adults around to cut them off before it becomes dangerous, keep them from doing anything stupid, and provide a nice dose of Jewish guilt to go along with the hangover.

When I moved to New Orleans, I was surprised to learn that kids drinking with their parents is very much part of the culture. I'm not sure what the actual law is (though I do know Louisiana was the last state in the union to cave to the 21 drinking age). But at least at the old, family-owned, high-end restaurants, nobody bats an eye if a parent orders their kid a cocktail. That's definitely not the case in Florida, where I can still remember my dad being yelled at and threatened to have the cops called when he literally had me hold his beer for ten seconds while he got something out of his pocket. I was 16 or 17 at the time. And a 7-11 refused to sell beer to my cousin's husband (in his 40s at the time) because I went in the store with him.
 
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My dad's side of the family is Jewish. It's been a long-standing tradition to give the kids wine on the holidays, starting with maybe a thimbleful for the little ones and graduating to slightly larger quantities over the years. At 13, you have your bar or bat mitzvah, and then you're an adult as far as Judaism is concerned. It's not unusual for the celebrant and their friends to learn all about overdoing it that night.

I think it's a really smart way to teach responsible consumption. Alcohol is part of the religious rituals and something to be savored, not binged. There's no "forbidden fruit" aspect to it. And if somebody wants to celebrate their newfound religious adulthood by getting wasted at their bar mitzvah, so what? There are plenty of safe adults around to cut them off before it becomes dangerous, keep them from doing anything stupid, and provide a nice dose of Jewish guilt to go along with the hangover.

When I moved to New Orleans, I was surprised to learn that kids drinking with their parents is very much part of the culture. I'm not sure what the actual law is (though I do know Louisiana was the last state in the union to cave to the 21 drinking age). But at least at the old, family-owned, high-end restaurants, nobody bats an eye if a parent orders their kid a cocktail. That's definitely not the case in Florida, where I can still remember my dad being yelled at and threatened to have the cops called when he literally had me hold his beer for ten seconds while he got something out of his pocket. I was 16 or 17 at the time. And a 7-11 refused to sell beer to my cousin's husband (in his 40s at the time) because I went in the store with him.
I was always allowed a glass of wine with dinner on Thanksgiving and Christmas. Not sure how young I was when I had my first sip of wine, but me having alcohol was no big deal. And you are right, it is a really smart way to reach responsible consumption. I think that may be why drinking before I was 21 wasn't something I was interested in. And never really got into hard liquor, just don't like the taste except in a fruity mixed drink once in a blue moon.
 














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