Don't care if it makes me a bad parent!

[ConnieB]

Ok, I was telling my girls about this thread....and they told me to stop posting and encouraging public schoolers to attend "off season".....cause if ya'll do that the crowds will get larger.

So....my 17 year old, college attending, daughters do not think anyone should take their child out of school for Disney. Keep going summers and holidays, lol.


Actually, after they were done defending our low crowd days, they said that it really depends on the kid (which I agree).....if your kid is struggling in school or even just making it.....a week off can add stress trying to catch up, especially if they aren't allowed to bring the work with them. But if your kid is doing well enough that a week isn't going to stress them out or lower their grades......well, there are a lot of educational things you can do to keep the learning going. Serious learning. Do some googling as there are quite a few homeschool websites that have lesson plans....or check out the individual enrollment into a YES program (disneyyouth.com). THOSE are excellent programs for learning.

 

[whatisgoofy?]

Just my two cents...in our school district in PA, family vacations are indeed allowed...and Disney is even specifically mentioned by the administration. All they ask is that you notify the school in advance. The only exception to the rule is if the child in question has serious attendance, grade, and/or disciplinary issues. We'll be taking our 9 and 7 yr. old in October, and have timed it around an unusual shortened week before the Columbus Day holiday...so in our case, the kids will only miss three days. Our kids do well in school, and while we highly value their education...this is a special trip for us all (first ever for the kids, first in 13 years for us), and the family experience is definitely worth it (truthfully, they've missed the same amount of school due to the flu before, and it had no negative effect beyond making up homework assignments). If our children were older, we would have reservations about the time in school missed...but at their grade level, and with our local policies it works for us.

 

[SEA333]

Maybe the reason why our school system allows them is because they themselves see the good. After all, our band was gone a week to play in a parade, our seniors are gone every year for a week on senior trip and our sports teams often miss whole days to go play in a pro stadium or far away. I like the fact that they are consistent in their belief that trips with or without their parents can be learning experiences that are positive.

Exactly! My son will be taking part in his school's annual week-long, VERY optional, Washington DC trip in April. Judging from his 7th grade yearbook pictures last year, only about 20 of the 110 8th graders attended the trip. The other 90 8th graders stayed in class and, I'm assuming, went about their normal daily classwork. In May of this school year, they will be boarding a bus to go for the day to Six Flaggs in Illinois. Last year, the 7th graders left at 5am to go to our state capitol of Springfield, IL, arriving home at 9pm that night. The school planned the trip for that specific day because there was a teacher in-service day the next day and the kids would have the day off. In 6th grade, the class went to an overnight camp in Wisconsin for "Outdoor Ed" for three school days. In high school, my advanced Spanish student will be involved in a student exchange program where he will go to Spain for TWO WEEKS, then host a Spanish student in our home for two weeks. Every single one of these "out of the classroom" occurances are school district sanctioned and approved.

Who decided that the school districts get to decide who/what/when/where it is OK for my child to take a trip during the school year? I do, and my child's teachers. We work together.

I partner WITH my childrens' teachers and school in their education. We both have ownership. I do not throw around the "I pay your taxes" and they do not throw around the "My job is so hard because...." With mutual respect comes an understanding that both of us are doing the best we can for my child's education, and that we trust each other enough to know that any opinions or decisions made on the behalf of my child is in their best interest.

Debate over, at least in my house.

 

[wdwlover25]

I plan our vacations a year in advance and let my son's teacher know what days he'll be missing at the open house. I've tried summer WDW trips the past three years and the heat/crowds made for a less than magical trip for all of us. I've never had any issues with his teachers and as a matter of fact, last years teacher took off a couple days early for winter break to take advantage of a pre Christmas WDW trip.

 

[Tramp68]

As it should be! BUT....sounds like some schools the teachers are not allowed to give the kids the work they'll miss.....so how can those teachers expect the kids to know the material? I wonder if they would punish the kids with not giving them the work if the kid was ill for a week or two (I missed almost a month of school in 7th grade due to emergency surgery and recovery time.....I had a pile of work delivered by a friend every day after school and they took the work I'd finished back....and this was in the late 70's...yes, we had paper back then!).

Excused absences are very different from unexcused absences. Someone else mentioned the not using textbooks anymore, which is also an issue. For the past year I have been teaching without a textbook as the "new common core" has rendered our 3 year old textbooks almost completely useless. It is not worth purchasing textbooks at this time as they have not had the time/resources to properly produce a text that is aligned to what and how we should be teaching...

Personally, I have provided as much as I can to the parents, but I also know that I go way above and beyond what most teachers are capable, willing, and have time to do. This also varies greatly with the subject and grade level being taught. An average 11th grader taking Algebra2 and Trigonometry in NY is commiting academic suicide by missing a week from class.

On another note...I find that I spend all kinds of time and effort to put together materials that a student can follow and complete while on vacation and guess what? 90% of the time the work either never comes back or is never completed....

 

[Tramp68]

Because clearly big brother/the government knows a child's educational needs better than the parents.

Elementary schools is not rocket science (no offense EleEd teachers!) and missing 5 days of instruction is not going to cripple these kids for life.

Tell that to 13 of my 8th grade math class who still do not know how to find a common denominator or how to turn a fraction into a decimal. Most kids do not recover from the gaps in their math education. I can even tell what gaps my "double accelerated class" students have from elementary days and these are kids who are taking 10th grade math in 8th grade because they are so brilliant....

 

[Aliceacc]

An average 11th grader taking Algebra2 and Trigonometry in NY is commiting academic suicide by missing a week from class.

..

Absolutely!!!

 

[Tramp68]

has anybody blamed a teacher for anything here? LOL

I see a whole bunch of blaming the parents, including the last line of your quote.

As a teacher, I see how the blame will eventually land in the teacher's lap. I now have 40% of my evaluation come DIRECTLY from how well my students do on standardized testing (NY State) I can easily see where pulling a child out in the weeks while we are reviewing for those tests could make a difference in my evaluation (and for some have an effect on their raises). Yes, I realize the effect of 1 student is negligible, but I have seen colleagues who have been dropped down to needs improvement over the results of 1 student not meeting their goal.

Again...I do not have a problem with parents who pull for a "once in a lifetime vacation" But I do have a problem with the family that goes EVERY year at the same time (unless the parents have no control over when they git vacation) I, personally, would love to be able to call out sick to work for a week so that we do not have to do Disney for February Break, Spring Break, July, August, or Christmas break. But, I could never do that to my students. I am not complaining in any way about my vacation time either. Since my wife and I are both in the education field we are able to take the kids on 3-4 week long vacations which make a trip for the month of August much more bearable when you have 30 days to enjoy the parks instead of 7...

 

[Tramp68]

Sorry, say what? Where do you live, so I can apply to work there? Teachers in our city have been asked to go without a raise three years in a row now, and they are paying more money out of pocket for their insurance. Not to mention class sizes are increasing and the teachers are not even guaranteed to have a job due to a budget deficit. "Do more, with less" is the motto.

I know this is off-topic from OP's point, but I just had a good laugh.

There are plenty of places where teachers are paid well. There are also plenty of places where teachers are not paid well. I happen to be a very well paid teacher in Westchester County, NY. However, I am probably in one of the highest paid counties in the whole country. The last thing we need to do is turn this into a teacher salary debate.

 

[Tramp68]

What rule are you breaking by taking your child out of school? If you tell the school that the child is sick, or has to go to a funeral or whatever instead of telling the truth that you're taking a family vacation....I'll agree that's wrong.

What rule says that if you're laid off you can't take a vacation? If you have the financial ability, that's up to you.



I think there is a Big Difference between taking your child out of school for a trip, which affects YOUR child only or lying to Disney about the age of your child, which is stealing from Disney as they are not collecting revenue for your child when they legally should.

Cutting in line is a matter of common courtesy, and socially unacceptable to most people (perhaps some were at Disney instead of in school on the day that this was taught in school....which may lead back to a conversation about the importance of keeping your kids in school?)

The rule you are breaking refers to what constitutes an excused absence. Vacation is an unexcused absence. Unexcused absences are cases of truancy (Truancy is any intentional unauthorized or illegal absence from compulsory education) By contributing to truancy a parent CAN be found neglible in their parental duties which can facilitate a PINS petition. Children can be taken away from their parents for excessive truancy. I spent 7 years working in a residential school where about 20% of the students were from this type of situation.

With that said, as far as I know noone is going to put a PINS petition for a family vacation, but it is still technically illegal in most school districts. It is actually one of those things that is against the rules, but everyone looks the other way (Would anyone like to go to a thread about the FastPass window for an example of a rule that was generally ignored but is now being enforced )

There are a ton of individual considerations here...
1. How well the child does in school
2. How well the child does making up work
3. How the teacher wants to handle the missing work
4. What time of year the vacation is happening
etc...

 

[Tramp68]

More out of curiosity than anything else...and I am not trying to start a riot here...

How would people feel if they bumped into their child's teacher in Disney or at a golf course somewhere during school time, knowing their child is now being taught by a substitute (who is very likely not qualified)?

 

[SEA333]

Excused absences are very different from unexcused absences. Someone else mentioned the not using textbooks anymore, which is also an issue. For the past year I have been teaching without a textbook as the "new common core" has rendered our 3 year old textbooks almost completely useless. It is not worth purchasing textbooks at this time as they have not had the time/resources to properly produce a text that is aligned to what and how we should be teaching...

That surprises me that *not* having a textbook would be an issue. My soon-to-be 8th grader uses Schoology and online textbooks/resources for all of his core subjects, except advance math, and we have found that it is easier for him to stay caught up with his classmates when he is sick or out for a few days. The message boards in Schoology and the ability for him to upload his assignments allowed him to work "from home" last spring when a horrible ear infection caused him to his 4 days of school. When he went back, he had very little make-up work to do. Did he miss the face to face instruction time? Yes. Did it hurt very much? No. I just finished my Masters Degree in Human Resources Management by taking online classes through a very good college, and I was able to read and watch video of all lectures and class documents. My Middle Schoolers curriculum notes in Schoology remind me so much of my online classes!

I think that technology, and the obliteration of physical books, are actually helping the debate that Middle School and High School kids don't really NEED to be in a classroom to learn. As for the teaching of responsibility, working on your own, seld-starting, and meeting deadlines are terrific lessons to learn, especially on vacation. It shows the child that learning doesn't stop, and neither does your responsibility to turn your work in. Again, though, I get what someone said, that 90% of students don't follow through. I'm glad my children do - because I make sure it happens.

 

[Magpie]

I'm taking my 3rd and 5th graders out of school for an entire week for a WDW trip! And while the school district may frown upon this, and take me to truancy court (because I will NOT lie about why I'm taking them out of school) some things are more important than school. And this will likely be a trip of a lifetime for my kids, so truancy court be damned! We can't afford peak season, and even if we could, there's no way massive crowds will make a trip anything but hell for us. We HATE crowds. HATE.THEM.

Flame away.

Hmm... I totally support taking kids out of school for trips. I've taken mine out many times, even in high school!

However, I don't think I'd mess around with truancy court. If I lived in a place without the kinds of freedoms I enjoy as a parent in Ontario, I think I'd homeschool. (Seriously, I actually homeschooled grades 1-4.)

I guess I just like to play by the rules, when it comes to something like this. (Anything court-related scares me, when it involves my kids!)

More out of curiosity than anything else...and I am not trying to start a riot here...

How would people feel if they bumped into their child's teacher in Disney or at a golf course somewhere during school time, knowing their child is now being taught by a substitute (who is very likely not qualified)?

I'd be tickled pink! And probably spend the rest of the day giggling about it.

BTW, for everyone saying that people are teaching their kids to be irresponsible non-achievers who won't do anything with their lives, may I present to you my husband.

His dad took him out of school for a week every spring to go hunting. The one time the school tried to stop him he simply asked what his son's grades were, and then told them that as long as the boy was learning everything they taught him, it was none of their business whether he had perfect attendance or not. My husband went on to go to one of the best universities in Canada and has been very successful from a career/financial viewpoint. But the best thing about him is how family oriented he is. He always finds time to be with his kids and me.

I'm grateful for the lessons his father taught him on those spring hunting trips, about putting family first!

 

[SEA333]

More out of curiosity than anything else...and I am not trying to start a riot here...

How would people feel if they bumped into their child's teacher in Disney or at a golf course somewhere during school time, knowing their child is now being taught by a substitute (who is very likely not qualified)?

I wouldn't feel anything bad at all. Just as I get vacation/personal days, so do teachers. Why shouldn't they? None of my kids' teachers are shy about telling me that they were out for such and such reason. Guess it's just another communication thing....when you have a good relationship with your child's teacher, they tend to tell you stuff. I volunteer, I help out, my kids are friends with their kids...in our old small town, we were neighbors/friends with about 1/2 of the teachers in my kids' elementary school.

Teachers are people, too!!

 

[rharper1496]

Tell that to 13 of my 8th grade math class who still do not know how to find a common denominator or how to turn a fraction into a decimal. Most kids do not recover from the gaps in their math education. I can even tell what gaps my "double accelerated class" students have from elementary days and these are kids who are taking 10th grade math in 8th grade because they are so brilliant....

That doesn't happen by missing one week, one time, though. My niece started very basic fractions last year in the second grade. Next year they'll start doing slightly more advanced fractions and so on and so on..... It's not like it was covered once and then never spoken of again. If we get to eighth grade and she has gaps in her math education then that's a failure on the part of multiple people (us included) over multiple years.

I actually got RL flamed for planing to take my son out next January. He's going into senior kindergarten, I think he'll live.

More out of curiosity than anything else...and I am not trying to start a riot here...

How would people feel if they bumped into their child's teacher in Disney or at a golf course somewhere during school time, knowing their child is now being taught by a substitute (who is very likely not qualified)?

Just curious myself, what makes you think they wouldn't be qualified? We have a huge surplus of teachers here. In order to get hired by a board as a substitute you have to have the exact same qualifications as someone who was going to be given a permanent placement. Most teachers college grads will sub for a few years while trying to get a full time job.

To answer your question, I did run into my son's teacher at the mall a few weeks before the end of the year and she fully admitted that she was exhausted and just needed to sleep in that day. She was 36 weeks pregnant and it was 35 degrees Celsius. It never even occurred to me that I should be anything but understanding. She's human, she needed a break.

 

[Magpie]

That doesn't happen by missing one week, one time, though. My niece started very basic fractions last year in the second grade. Next year they'll start doing slightly more advanced fractions and so on and so on..... It's not like it was covered once and then never spoken of again. If we get to eighth grade and she has gaps in her math education then that's a failure on the part of multiple people (us included) over multiple years.

This is very, very true. I tutor children, part time, and a few years back one of my students was a 7th grader whose mother had just pulled him from school to homeschool.

In SEVEN years of math education, he had not developed any number sense at all. He showed up with a calculator and was unable to do even simple sums in his head. Nor could he recognize that 70 plus 30 cannot equal 300, without doing the sum to check.

Honestly, it made me a bit angry that the system had been passing him along year after year, without anyone realizing the boy wasn't keeping up! And it wasn't as if he had a disability, either. He took one year off school and covered three years of math with me. Then he entered high school, and now has A's in all his math classes.

I think the problems in public school math instruction run a lot deeper than a few children missing a week of school here or there.

 

[Planogirl]

This is copied directly from our district's handbook. Note the last paragraph. (The modeling thing gets me.):

School employees must investigate and report violations of the state compulsory attendance law. A student absent from school without permission from any class; from required special programs; from additional instruction assigned by a placement/attendance committee or from required tutorials will be considered in violation of the law and subject to disciplinary action. A school aged student deliberately not attending school may also result in assessment of penalties by a court of law against both the student and/or his or her parents. A complaint may be filed in the appropriate court if the student:
1. Is absent from school ten (10) or more days, or parts of days, within a six month period in the same school year, or
2. Is absent from school on three (3) or more days, or parts of days, within a four-week period.
3. Tardies are considered parts of days.

Exemptions to Compulsory Attendance
State law allows exemptions to the compulsory attendance requirements for several types of absences. These include the following activities and events:
Religious holy days; Required court appearances; Activities related to obtaining United States citizenship; Service as an election clerk; and Documented healthcare appointments, including absences for recognized services for students diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders.

In addition, a junior or senior student's absence of up to two days related to visiting a college or university may be considered an exemption, provided the student receives approval from the campus principal, follows the campus procedures to verify such visit, and makes up any work missed.

A person required to attend school may be excused for temporary absence resulting from any unusual cause acceptable to the Superintendent, the principal or the teacher of the school in which the student is enrolled. Such causes may include, but are not limited to: 1) personal sickness; 2) family emergency; 3) documented juvenile court proceeding; 4) Board approved extracurricular activity; or 5) approved college visitation.

Absences such as non-school related vacations and trips, babysitting, working (including modeling), and non-school sponsored athletic events and programs shall be considered unexcused. If a student is going to be absent more than ten consecutive days, the student shall be withdrawn at the end of the tenth day.

I admit that we once made a mini-trip to an important function when DS was a senior. He chose to call in sick for a day which I don't like but he was 18 and at that point I left it up to him.

 

[Tramp68]

That surprises me that *not* having a textbook would be an issue. My soon-to-be 8th grader uses Schoology and online textbooks/resources for all of his core subjects, except advance math, and we have found that it is easier for him to stay caught up with his classmates when he is sick or out for a few days. The message boards in Schoology and the ability for him to upload his assignments allowed him to work "from home" last spring when a horrible ear infection caused him to his 4 days of school. When he went back, he had very little make-up work to do. Did he miss the face to face instruction time? Yes. Did it hurt very much? No. I just finished my Masters Degree in Human Resources Management by taking online classes through a very good college, and I was able to read and watch video of all lectures and class documents. My Middle Schoolers curriculum notes in Schoology remind me so much of my online classes!

I think that technology, and the obliteration of physical books, are actually helping the debate that Middle School and High School kids don't really NEED to be in a classroom to learn. As for the teaching of responsibility, working on your own, seld-starting, and meeting deadlines are terrific lessons to learn, especially on vacation. It shows the child that learning doesn't stop, and neither does your responsibility to turn your work in. Again, though, I get what someone said, that 90% of students don't follow through. I'm glad my children do - because I make sure it happens.

The issue results from the lack of descriptive examples or definitions/formulas that come from class notes. It is very difficult for a student to teach themselves math under the best of circumstances, impossible when there is no instruction to back up the assignment. I would say that an easy majority of the parents claim that they can't help because they do not remember how to do the work themselves. even with a textbook as backup.

 

[Tramp68]

That doesn't happen by missing one week, one time, though. My niece started very basic fractions last year in the second grade. Next year they'll start doing slightly more advanced fractions and so on and so on..... It's not like it was covered once and then never spoken of again. If we get to eighth grade and she has gaps in her math education then that's a failure on the part of multiple people (us included) over multiple years.

The way that the curriculum tends to work the same topics tend to be taught at the same time of year. Therefore, being pulled every year during the same time period creates a gap in math skills. I also agree that it is a failure of the system. A child who fails math should not be allowed to move on (or any other subject) The problem is that society has a problem with 18 year old 8th graders...I also believe that not everyone is destined for high school. As a society we need to look at the advantage of trade high schools. This is actually why we lag so many countries in education. Most countries have weeded out the non academic kids early on and put them in a trade tract where they do not affect subject scores.

Just curious myself, what makes you think they wouldn't be qualified? We have a huge surplus of teachers here. In order to get hired by a board as a substitute you have to have the exact same qualifications as someone who was going to be given a permanent placement. Most teachers college grads will sub for a few years while trying to get a full time job.

Of all the subs that I have ever worked with, there are only 2 that have been qualified to take over my classes and actually teach. Most of the time they are not available as I almost never have scheduled days off, they are last minute call ins when I just can't handle going in to work.

To answer your question, I did run into my son's teacher at the mall a few weeks before the end of the year and she fully admitted that she was exhausted and just needed to sleep in that day. She was 36 weeks pregnant and it was 35 degrees Celsius. It never even occurred to me that I should be anything but understanding. She's human, she needed a break.

That was 1 day and not a weeks vacation. Around here a teacher would be lynched. "We already have 16 weeks of vacation and only work 4 hours a day and are way overpaid" Besides, we are not allowed to take more than 1 day off connected to a weekend, 2 days in the middle of a week and NEVER in conjunction with a Holiday. This is also a limit of 4 days per year as well. I was actually denied taking off for my daughters first day of kindergarden. I also used to work with a teacher who was fired because he was caught playing golf on a personal day. (personal days are for use by a teacher for business that CANNOT be conducted OUTSIDE of the regular school day) I do believe in mental health days and have taken them myself, but they are not meant for vacations.

I am actually pleasantly surprised by the support of teachers here. I am used to defending my job, work schedule, pay and vacations

 

[Magpie]

The issue results from the lack of descriptive examples or definitions/formulas that come from class notes. It is very difficult for a student to teach themselves math under the best of circumstances, impossible when there is no instruction to back up the assignment. I would say that an easy majority of the parents claim that they can't help because they do not remember how to do the work themselves. even with a textbook as backup.

And sometimes the textbooks are just really, really crummy. My husband is an engineer and even he was getting frustrated trying to help my daughter with her physics.

We ended up borrowing a bunch of old physics books from her uncle, that were much better written and easier to understand.

And the same thing just happened again today! My daughter's taking Statistics with a teacher who has an impenetrable accent and a mediocre textbook. I was sorting through a pile of old books and what do I find but a barely used Statistics text! I gave it to my daughter and she immediately started reading it. She says it helped her figure out a homework problem she'd almost given up on, because her official text wasn't being helpful.

It really makes me wonder if textbook quality has gone downhill in the last decade or so...