Does your religion....

But if it were that easy, why does Jesus say, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Plenty of rich people have faith.

You left out the next two verses.

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I don't know about the criminals.

Luke 23

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."


I think it makes sense that one's faith would lead one to try to do good.

I think we all know people who claim to be Christian, but look no different that the world.
 
Yo, don't you dare question my qualifications for any particular religion! :mad: Show me one person who follows every doctrine of Catholicism and I'll show you Pope Benedict XVI. I am a Catholic and I participate in my local Catholic community. Views like mine have been openly discussed, often with our priests, who surely are more qualified to determine who is Catholic than you. :sad2:

I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I apologize if you were offended. I went through 12 years of Catholic school, myself. It's a matter of semantics. In order to be a "Christian", you must believe that Christ is savior. That's the definition of Christian. According to the Catholic Church, you must accept Jesus (at some point - even at the time of judgment for those whom the Gospel was not made known to here) in order to enter heaven.

Perhaps I was a little unclear. As far as I remember, the Catholic church teaches that you cannot reject Christ in order to enter heaven (which is a little different than my prior post)

Now, Vatican II did change many things, but consider this (and remember, the Pope speaks for the church)... (and please note, I do not agree with this, I'm merely explaining my prior post)

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." - Pope Innocent III

"Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins." - Pope Bonaface VIII

"It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart 'into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"
- Pope Eugene IV

Three Popes, at different times in history, confirm that outside of the Catholic Church, even if you are Christian, you cannot enter heaven (cannot have salvation).

Now, for something a little more "current" (08/2000)...

"There is only one salvific economy of the One and Triune God, realized in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God, actualized with the cooperation of the Holy Spirit, and extended in its salvific value to all humanity and to the entire universe: “No one, therefore, can enter into communion with God except through Christ, by the working of the Holy Spirit." - Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI)

This is a little less "strict", however, Pope Benedict XVI, the head of the Catholic Church, confirms that you cannot enter heaven (enter into communion with God) without believing in Christ.

Again, I'm not saying you are right or wrong. Nor am I saying Pope Benedict XVI is right or wrong. That's not for me to decide. However, I do know that Catholicism is not a democracy. The Vatican sets the rules, not the congregation.
 


I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I apologize if you were offended. I went through 12 years of Catholic school, myself. It's a matter of semantics. In order to be a "Christian", you must believe that Christ is savior. That's the definition of Christian. According to the Catholic Church, you must accept Jesus (at some point - even at the time of judgment for those whom the Gospel was not made known to here) in order to enter heaven.

Perhaps I was a little unclear. As far as I remember, the Catholic church teaches that you cannot reject Christ in order to enter heaven (which is a little different than my prior post)

]



The Catholic church has, in the last 10 years or so made some pretty strong statements , that they believe G-d's covenant with Jews are still valid.
 
You left out the next two verses.

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."



Luke 23

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."




I think we all know people who claim to be Christian, but look no different that the world.

Amen to the question and the answer! All things can be misinterpeted if only seen/heard in parts. To truely understand the Word of God you have to read it, ask questions, and listen to the answers. Find someone who has set an example of their life by being a Christian. You may be surprised that they lead a very different life before Christ. I know that I did. I am not perfect, long from it. But I am aware of my need to be like Christ, and that is what makes me Christian. I may not always appear to be a Christian, but people who knew me "when" will tell you I've changed. I expect people who know me today to be able to say that in the future as well. All I have is a gift from God, and I try to remember that and act accordingly.
 

The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. As a Christian it is all black and white--heaven or hell.
 
I submit the story told by Jesus about the rich man & Lazarus. This story seems to indicate there is no chance for redemption after death.

There is a difference between redeption after death and redemption after judgment.

I assume you agree that this passage indicates that upon death, we are to be judged:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. 2Cor 10:5 RSV

Now, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus - consider the condition of the rich man...

"There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. Luke 16:19-23
The passage states that the rich man was in Hades, and "in torment". This, to me, would seem to be a clear indication that this is his state post-judgment.

This could be used as evidence to say that there is no redemption post judgment, but that does not necessarily prove that there is no possibility for redemption in the time (if time has any meaning at this point - see my previous posts on atemporality in this thread) between mortal death on earth and judgment before God.

So, as I previously mentioned, I also cannot prove that God will have mercy upon a non-Christian upon their death at the moment of their judgment. I don't know what God would do to a non-Christian who - at judgment - kneels before God, takes full responsibility for their failures (including denial of Christ), and now begs forgiveness through Christ's saving sacrifice. Does God have mercy, or say that they are too late?

For the rich man - we don't know what he did or said to God at his judgment - we only know that his judgment resulted in Hades as his destination.
 
The Catholic church has, in the last 10 years or so made some pretty strong statements , that they believe G-d's covenant with Jews are still valid.

Yes, I am pretty sure that while Catholics do believe you must accept Jesus as the savior to be "saved" (i.e. go to heaven), they also honor the beliefs of Jews and do not necessarily believe they cannot be saved.

Now...I am Catholic and my own PERSONAL belief is that anyone...christian, jew, hindu, muslim, etc. can be saved. God is forgiving and loves us more than anything. Who are we to say what happens when someone is standing before Him at their judgement???
 
Sorry, double post - but I also wanted to respond to this earlier post by jimmiej to me...

I do have complete, 100% assurance in my salvation. Here's why: It's based not on my goodness (or lack thereof), but instead on what Jesus has already done. I believe & accept that, so my future is secure.

I know some question "once saved, always saved", but imo, there's no basis for it.

The Bible says for believers "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Have you heard the song "I Can Only Imagine"? When I see my Lord, will I dance, bow down, stand in awe? Who knows? I do know this. When I see Jesus face to face, I want Him to say to me, "Well done, good & faithful servant!"

I'm familiar with the song - I (personally) don't want to have the expectation that God will say to me "Well done, good and faithful servant" - in all honesty, I would be beyond happy if God simply said to me, "Don't worry about it, you weren't that bad - and besides, I forgive you".

There are too many verses in Scripture for me to assume that I can go to heaven, with head held high and walk through the front doors.

Examples include:

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.""

Those passages - and others - remind me that even though I have accepted Christ, there is far too much that could happen to me before I stand before God - and I know I fall short of being a Christian, Christ-like - each and every day of my life.

I cannot imagine why God would ever want to save me - despite knowing that Jesus went to the tax collectors and sinners rather than the righteous - I still can't imagine how He could forgive me.

I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong - this is a personal element of our faiths. I just (at this time of my life) think that if I were to come face to face with God at this moment - I would be on my knees apologizing and begging for His mercy.
 
There is a difference between redeption after death and redemption after judgment.

I assume you agree that this passage indicates that upon death, we are to be judged:


Quote:
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. 2Cor 10:5 RSV

Now, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus - consider the condition of the rich man...


Quote:
"There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. Luke 16:19-23

The passage states that the rich man was in Hades, and "in torment". This, to me, would seem to be a clear indication that this is his state post-judgment.

This could be used as evidence to say that there is no redemption post judgment, but that does not necessarily prove that there is no possibility for redemption in the time (if time has any meaning at this point - see my previous posts on atemporality in this thread) between mortal death on earth and judgment before God.

So, as I previously mentioned, I also cannot prove that God will have mercy upon a non-Christian upon their death at the moment of their judgment. I don't know what God would do to a non-Christian who - at judgment - kneels before God, takes full responsibility for their failures (including denial of Christ), and now begs forgiveness through Christ's saving sacrifice. Does God have mercy, or say that they are too late?

For the rich man - we don't know what he did or said to God at his judgment - we only know that his judgment resulted in Hades as his destination.

Actually, I believe judgement will come after the second coming of Christ. Post rapture, post 1000 year reign.

I believe the judgement you speak of will be for believers only. The Great White Throne Judgement (Rev. 20) will be for unbelievers.

There is no Sciptural evidence that salvation can be had post physical death. As a matter of fact:

Matthew 25
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
 
Sorry, double post - but I also wanted to respond to this earlier post by jimmiej to me...



I'm familiar with the song - I (personally) don't want to have the expectation that God will say to me "Well done, good and faithful servant" - in all honesty, I would be beyond happy if God simply said to me, "Don't worry about it, you weren't that bad - and besides, I forgive you".

There are too many verses in Scripture for me to assume that I can go to heaven, with head held high and walk through the front doors.

Examples include:

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.""

Those passages - and others - remind me that even though I have accepted Christ, there is far too much that could happen to me before I stand before God - and I know I fall short of being a Christian, Christ-like - each and every day of my life.

I cannot imagine why God would ever want to save me - despite knowing that Jesus went to the tax collectors and sinners rather than the righteous - I still can't imagine how He could forgive me.

I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong - this is a personal element of our faiths. I just (at this time of my life) think that if I were to come face to face with God at this moment - I would be on my knees apologizing and begging for His mercy.

Again, I don't believe I can lose my salvation, because it is based on Jesus' actions, not mine.

John 10

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

I John 5

This is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.




I am actively seeking to earn heavenly rewards.

http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq414.html

Is it right for Christians to seek after eternal rewards?

First, we must determine what earns eternal rewards.

The answer to this is wrapped up in the words of Jesus: “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you” (Matt. 6:33).

The “things” that will be added when a Christian seeks to do what the Kingdom of God requires --absolute obedience to all commands found within His Word—are blessings this side of Heaven and are rewards for eternity.

Under this prescription found in Matthew 6:33, it is not only okay to desire and seek eternal rewards, but it is commanded of the believer.

Paul the Apostle made no apologies for saying: “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:7-8).

We must make sure our desires are not selfish inward turning, so that it is all about us. We, as God’s children, are to seek with all our hearts to do what He put us here to do. Then, our heavenly father will see to it we are blessed beyond our wildest imaginations in His omniscient timing.
 
Hi jimmiej:

Quick reply and then I need to get some sleep.

On a lot of this, we'll have to let God sort it out - we differ way too much in our interpretations of Scripture.

Actually, I believe judgement will come after the second coming of Christ. Post rapture, post 1000 year reign.

That sentence of yours is a prime example. Similar to the way non-Catholic Christians say that "Purgatory" is not in the Bible - Catholics say the "Rapture" isn't in the Bible. Neither word is in the Bible - only the concepts if Scripture is interpreted in a certain manner.

In terms of the verses on eternal security - no one can snatch, perhaps - but does the person still have free-will enough to remove themselves from Christ's hand? Most of the verse I cited were people falling away by their own choice or failings - not taken away by someone else.

Essentially, there are verses that support eternal security, and others that support the requirment to remain steadfast - I don't know how that works out. Once again, this is something I do not think is possible to state with certainty. Far more learned theologians and scriptural scholars have been going at each other on these topics for centuries now - it's not going to end.

Fortunately, in the immortal words of Bart Simpson (no, I'm not kidding) -

Don't you get it? It's all Christianity. The big stupid differences are nothing compared to the big stupid similarities.

Christ is our common ground - we do our best from there and try to get along as brothers and sisters in Chirst as much as possible.
 
My interpretation of "once saved always saved' may be different and wrong but this is how I interpret it: Once you accept Christ's sacrifice for your sin, you are His and cannot "lose your salvation". You will go on obeying God and focusing on Him and others, trying to beome more Christ-like. I believe you can turn and walk away from God. It will be your choice to remain a christian while you are here. If you disobey and screw up though, you will not, because of it, lose your salvation. If you are trying and fail, it is OK. If you are not trying and doing wrong in the eyes of God, then you should probably ask yourself if you are really a Christian in the first place.

God knows our hearts. He knows where our loyalty is. He knows whether we are obeying or whether we are doing our own thing. One might look and sound like a terrific person/Christian and not be a follower of God. One may not go to church but yet walk daily, step by step with Him. It is all a matter of the heart, IMHO. You can't fool the Creator!

I believe we can and should know whether we are true Christians and know if we have salvation or not.
It is not a matter of waltzing into heaven all pious. It will always be a matter of knowing without Jesus' sacrifice you'd never go to heaven no matter how good you could ever be. Good isn't good enough. I suppose everyone would react like the man in Daniel when it comes to seeing God someday...on my face, on my knees, in awe and amazement. Even though I feel assurance I can promise you there is no self-righteous here. When it comes to God, I am on my face, grateful and overcome.

It is only MHO, but I do not believe that there are second chances after death. Personally, I think when anyone stands in judgement from God, they'll bow and say "There is a God" but it will be too late. Maybe (and it'd be nice) I'm worng but I would never give anyone a slight feeling of 'well, if I die and see there really is a God, I'll believe then" and mislead them into thinking there could be a chance after death. From studying the Bible, my guess is we decide here and now and we'd better not wait. After all, the journey with god in this lifetime is extrememly precious. I wouldn't miss it for anything!
 
My interpretation of "once saved always saved' may be different and wrong but this is how I interpret it: Once you accept Christ's sacrifice for your sin, you are His and cannot "lose your salvation". You will go on obeying God and focusing on Him and others, trying to beome more Christ-like. I believe you can turn and walk away from God. It will be your choice to remain a christian while you are here. If you disobey and screw up though, you will not, because of it, lose your salvation. If you are trying and fail, it is OK. If you are not trying and doing wrong in the eyes of God, then you should probably ask yourself if you are really a Christian in the first place.
I think what you are describing is not an absolute "eternal security" outlook. As you stated, a person can choose to turn and walk away. I think this is similar to what I said in that while Scripture indicates that nobody can snatch you from Christ there doesn't seem to be a similar verse indicating that a person can't remove themselves from Christ's hand. I also agree that we can't know for certain the correct view, and while this difference may appear on the surface to be minor and/or simply semantics - I don't want to discount the difference either.

God knows our hearts. He knows where our loyalty is. He knows whether we are obeying or whether we are doing our own thing. One might look and sound like a terrific person/Christian and not be a follower of God. One may not go to church but yet walk daily, step by step with Him. It is all a matter of the heart, IMHO. You can't fool the Creator!
True, and this is where Justin Martyr originally (and where Karl Rahner recently) find support for their Anonymous Christian view.

So, when gentiles, not having the Law, still through their own innate sense behave as the Law commands, the, even though they have no Law, they are a law for themselves. They can demonstrate the effect of the Law engraved on their hearts, to which their own conscience bears witness; since they are aware of various considerations, some of which accuse them, while others provide them with a defece... on the day when, according to the gospel that I preach, God, through Jesus Christ, judges all human secrets. Romans 2:14-16.

Paul witnessed Gentiles, for whatever reason, behaving as though they were following the Law (moral, not ritual) that God gave to the Jews - that somehow it had been engraved upon their hearts. Justin Martyr - and more recently, Karl Rahner - have postulated that perhaps the same can be said about the presense of the Holy Spirit. This thought is fuelled by individuals such as Ghandi, who was not a Christian, yet spoke highly of Christ's teachings and frequently exhibited in his own life, principles and behaviour that are at the heart of the Christian message.

I believe we can and should know whether we are true Christians and know if we have salvation or not.
As much as I am pretty strong on the atemporal view of God, I am also fairly in line with the Catholic teaching on salvation. Most Christians are familiar with the Doxology that says (of Christ) "Who was, and is, and is to come". The Catholic Mass includes as one of its Mysteries of the Faith, "Christ has died, Christ is Risen, Christ will come again". It's all a past - present - future thing. So, this spills into our salvation views: I have been saved by and through Christ's sacrifice, I am being saved as I follow by Christian walk through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I will be saved and be purified by God in the afterlife. For Catholics, salvation is a process rather than a singular event - and perhaps that is why (with our acceptance of full free-will) we are mindful of ensuring that we fully cooperate with the process and not stall or halt it through our own actions. The sins we commit, in and of themselves, are not enough to halt the process, unless they are done willfully with no intention of repenting - since that, in essence, means a person has chosen to reject God's love and forgiveness. That does not mean, however, that you are now lost. Denying Christ once doesn't mean that you are guaranteed damnation any more than accepting Christ once guarantees your salvation.

Of course, this always raises the issue of what happens to a person who dies when they are in a period of being a "backslider". Again, this is all stuff we just can't be certain about, but my hope is that upon death, and coming face to face with God, a person will once again repent sincerely and place their trust in a merciful God.

It is not a matter of waltzing into heaven all pious. It will always be a matter of knowing without Jesus' sacrifice you'd never go to heaven no matter how good you could ever be. Good isn't good enough. I suppose everyone would react like the man in Daniel when it comes to seeing God someday...on my face, on my knees, in awe and amazement. Even though I feel assurance I can promise you there is no self-righteous here. When it comes to God, I am on my face, grateful and overcome.
This is what I mean (somewhat) about being on my knees myself. As much as I know God's willingness to forgive, I just so often feel unworthy of that gift. Unfortunately, I think that there are Christians who are prone to the sin of Pride, and that they do take the belief in eternal security to it's improper extreme. I am always reminded of the lyrics to Peter Gabriel's song "Big Time" - And my heaven will be a big heaven... and I will walk through the front door. The song is a condemnation of egotism and pride. When I die, I don't plan on walking through the front door. I imagine falling to my knees, and praying that God will pick me up, and carry me inside.

It is only MHO, but I do not believe that there are second chances after death. Personally, I think when anyone stands in judgement from God, they'll bow and say "There is a God" but it will be too late. Maybe (and it'd be nice) I'm worng but I would never give anyone a slight feeling of 'well, if I die and see there really is a God, I'll believe then" and mislead them into thinking there could be a chance after death. From studying the Bible, my guess is we decide here and now and we'd better not wait. After all, the journey with god in this lifetime is extrememly precious. I wouldn't miss it for anything!
Of course, both opinions are there - and we can't know with certainty the fate of non-Christians upon their deaths. I don't mean to mislead anyone by what I hope could happen. At the same time, I can also hope that in speaking of God having that much mercy, a person might want to think about what that means. Even if the person simply thinks about God having that much mercy (or thinking about God at all) is - at the very least - a step towards God.
 
I can't quote a bible to save my soul (pun intended) and I consider myself a christian. But I also don't believe for that you have to be Christian to make it to Heaven.

Esdras (and others): THANK YOU for all the interesting reading. It's so rare to have a religious thread without the "I'm saved but you're going to hell" mentality.
 
Esdras (and others): THANK YOU for all the interesting reading. It's so rare to have a religious thread without the "I'm saved but you're going to hell" mentality.

Thank you for the compliment.

While most of my education was at a Catholic University - Christians of all denominations (and non-Christians and agnostics/athiests too, actually) were in my classes. Because of the setting, we were required to discuss things - including differences - in a civil manner. I use the same approach here.

I've seen those threads you mention - I simply can't take part in those.

Additionally, I think far more gets accomplished with this approach anyway.
 
You left out the next two verses.

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Sure, but that still doesn't imply it's as easy as simple faith. If it were, then Jesus wouldn't have said that it's so hard for the rich to be saved.


Luke 23

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

I know it's in Luke. I said both criminals insulted Jesus in Matthew and Mark, and are not given dialogue in John. What to do when the Gospels disagree? :confused3
 
esdras:

I think we differ on who Jesus was talking to/about in the parable of the sower.


Mark 4

13Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown."


I see the people Jesus is describing as those who are hearing the Word for the first time, or pre-salvation. It seems like you're interpreting this as post-salvation. Am I understanding correctly? IMO, only the last group were true followers of Christ.

Here's a short passage from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

In the great field of the church, the word of God is dispensed to all. Of the many that hear the word of the gospel, but few receive it, so as to bring forth fruit.

http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-con/view.cgi?book=mr&chapter=004
 
Sure, but that still doesn't imply it's as easy as simple faith. If it were, then Jesus wouldn't have said that it's so hard for the rich to be saved.

The NT is full of examples we are saved by faith.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Ephesians 2

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.




I know it's in Luke. I said both criminals insulted Jesus in Matthew and Mark, and are not given dialogue in John. What to do when the Gospels disagree? :confused3

I only find it in Matthew 27:44. Mark says this:

25It was the third hour when they crucified him. 26The written notice of the charge against him read: THE KING OF THE JEWS. 27They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left. 29Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, "So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30come down from the cross and save yourself!"

Who knows why the difference? Here's one commentator thoughts.

People's New Testament

Matthew 27

verse 44. The robbers also cast upon him the same reproach. Luke only (23:39-43) tells of the penitence of one. Doubtless, both at first reviled him, but one was converted in three hours that they hung side by side.

http://www.studylight.org/com/pnt/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=027
 
The NT is full of examples we are saved by faith.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Ephesians 2

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast. ]
John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Obviously a Christian is saved through faith, but these verses do not indicate it has to be faith alone. Indeed, James contradicts:

"Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. "



I only find it in Matthew 27:44. Mark says this:

25It was the third hour when they crucified him. 26The written notice of the charge against him read: THE KING OF THE JEWS. 27They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left. 29Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, "So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30come down from the cross and save yourself!"

Who knows why the difference? Here's one commentator thoughts.

People's New Testament

Matthew 27

verse 44. The robbers also cast upon him the same reproach. Luke only (23:39-43) tells of the penitence of one. Doubtless, both at first reviled him, but one was converted in three hours that they hung side by side.

http://www.studylight.org/com/pnt/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=027

It is in Mark:
Mark 27:32 "'Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.' Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him."

It's certainly possible they may have changed their minds in the hours they were hanging there. :confused3
 
As my mother is terminally ill she has asked me to help "pray her out of Purgatory"....I don't quite know how to respond to that.

When I was a kid in Catholic school, if something bad or upsetting happened, the nuns would say "Offer up your sadness over this event for the poor souls in Purgatory". I'm talking mid-70's here. I was no theologian back then (still aren't) but I kind of took it to mean that the poor souls in Purgatory were "OK' people who maybe just had a few "small" things to atone for, hence the reason they were in the "waiting room". Then my sadness/suffering could ease their way into Heaven. Kind of parallel to Jesus' suffering for us.

An over-simplification perhaps, but it works for me. ;)
 

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