Does your religion....

[jimmiej]

If God wishes to enter a relationship with each of us, but will not go so far as to force the issue, then it is our choice as to whether we enter into that relationship with Him. For the Christian, this is done by embracing Jesus Christ, as God's most tangible expression of His love and presence in our physical universe.

IA with the first sentence here, which I think is where salmoneous & I disagree.

Your second sentence leaves me wondering if you believe there are other ways to God besides Jesus. "For the Christian" ???

 

[esdras]

IA with the first sentence here, which I think is where salmoneous & I disagree.

Your second sentence leaves me wondering if you believe there are other ways to God besides Jesus. "For the Christian" ???

Sorry, should have been a little bit clearer on that point.

On earth, Jesus Christ is the means for the Christian - we've already accepted Christ as the "bridge" between humanity and Divinity - He clearly showed us that it is indeed possible to become reconciled and come to the Father eternally.

For the non-Christian, they must answer the question as to how a person, after death, might be able to do so. Yet there doesn't seem to be an example in our own mortal universe that points the way as clearly as Christ did.

That is why I hold out the hope that in the moment between mortal death and the afterlife, a person finds themselves confronted by God - indeed Christ - who definitively shows that the only way to eternity with the Divine is through the realization of how humanity and Divinity can come together - Jesus Christ. To deny that is - as I posted in the last message - effectively saying "I want nothing to do with you".

Ultimately (and this fits with Scripture) we can only come to the Father through Christ - He is God present in the physical universe and the bridge to eternity with the Father. Perhaps it might be easier for the Christian, who had faith in this throughout thier mortal existence to automatically reach out to Christ at the point between death and eternity - since they did so throughout their moral life.

For the non-Christian, they still must reach out to Christ - the unity of humanity and Divinity that can take us to the Father - so, in that sense, no one comes to the Father except through Christ.

I am only wondering about when the very final chance is offered.

 

[daisax]

You are exactly right, he is not a "gotcha" kind of God, but He is a just God, and He has given us his laws through his Word ~ The Bible.

Christianity preceded the Bible, though. And of course the Word preceded everything.

If He had intended the Bible as the sole key to salvation, wouldn't it have been easier simply to speak as plainly as He did with the 10 commandments? Why so many authors, so many hundreds of years of haggling over what should be in vs. what should be out? He could have said "Do this and you're in, do this and you're out." But He didn't. Why not? How can a document seem so crystal clear to some when thousands of scholarship years have been spent trying to decipher it by others?

The fundamental difference of world view between Protestants and Catholics iis whether scripture alone is sufficient. The Catholic view is that doctrine can also come from tradition (a tradition descended directly from Jesus's own ministry). It's not that we don't take the Bible seriously, but that we think that taking it literally wasn't necessarily the intent.

That verse tells me that Jesus is necessary for salvation, not "faith in Jesus". Do you not see a distinction?

No I don't. As a matter of fact, your statement makes no sense to me. I have no idea what you're saying here.

And there we are. Because it seemed clear to me!

It appears to me (and I could be wrong) that under your analysis, God made the sacrifice, but unless you accept it in a very formal, specific way, too bad for you. And others of us think that God made the sacrifice, and retains the right to do as He pleases above and beyond it, given the totality of His knowledge of the individual up to and including the moment of Judgment.

 

[jimmiej]

The fundamental difference of world view between Protestants and Catholics iis whether scripture alone is sufficient. The Catholic view is that doctrine can also come from tradition (a tradition descended directly from Jesus's own ministry). It's not that we don't take the Bible seriously, but that we think that taking it literally wasn't necessarily the intent. .

I guess what bothers me is church tradition changes with the times.

And there we are. Because it seemed clear to me!

It appears to me (and I could be wrong) that under your analysis, God made the sacrifice, but unless you accept it in a very formal, specific way, too bad for you. And others of us think that God made the sacrifice, and retains the right to do as He pleases above and beyond it, given the totality of His knowledge of the individual up to and including the moment of Judgment.

It doesn't have to be something formal. It could be as simple as, "Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner." I guess where we differ is, I believe the Bible is clear, a person must actually make that choice. It doesn't just happen.

 

[Buckalew11]

But the final question is this - when does God decide that a person can no longer choose to enter into a relationship with the divine? Must that be done on earth, or is there one final opportunity when a mortal comes face to face with their Creator? If it is the latter, this works well with the C.S. Lewis concept that there is no one in Hell who didn't choose to be there - since Hell is complete alienation and separation from God, can this only be done upon coming face to face with the Divine and clearly saying, "I want nothing to do with you".

Personally, I do not think that Scripture (which is Divinely inspired and not Divinely dictated) gives us enough information to know this answer with certainty. This is my hope for humanity, that God will indeed give every opportunity to His creation to enter into a relationship with Him. It is also possible that in the moment of your last breath, you have passed the point of no return.

I am only wondering about when the very final chance is offered.

Thank you for your thoughts. You are very nice to read and explain your thoughts and beliefs so well. I agree with much of what you say but I say it in a much more simple way. Reading me probably drives someone as educated as you, crazy! Sorry about that. I'm good practice for when you chat with the simple people.

I am not sure whether your first thought I quoted is right or wrong. I am not sure we can really know when the time comes for each soul to choose. I will tell you why I think the time comes as you take your last breath.

I believe that the choice is made here while we are living because I think that it takes more faith to believe now than after you die. I think FAITH is what is important to God (and relationship among other things such as obedience). I just do not think it would take much faith after death if you are standing before God Himself. I think in that moment as each person stands before God, there will not be a doubt that He was who He said He was.

Often people will say, "If God would just show himself to me in some special way so I would know He was real, I'd believe and have faith." My belief is that God DOES show Himself to us in many ways, many times in life and even more if we seek Him out. To have an encounter with God when you are fully seeking Him is an amazing experience.
It is why I cannot deny God and it is why I feel so deeply within my core being that He is REAL.
But if God just appears, face to face, does exactly what some people want Him to do to be real to them, there would be no need for FAITH. I think that if you were face to face with Him after death, you'd just *know*.
That would be my #1 arguement for why I think after death may be too late.

Maybe I am wrong...and it would be nice for *me* (and people in general) if I was. However, it would change what I believe the nature of God to be and that would be weird to me. I think God does draw the line in the sand, so to speak, and says do not cross this line. As humans, we are always moving the line. We move it for ourselves and our children. It makes one a bit wishy-washy and that just doesn't seem like the God of the Bible IMHO.

It is just mho, that it would be a rare person to come face to face with God and not choose Him. If that was the way it was, faith in Christ would not even be needed. We could live good lives, love God and in the end, come face to face with Him and make the decision upon our death.

 

[jimmiej]

Brenda, you make a good point.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.