does this happen alot, people who make reservations only to sell then?

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by tripletvan
Is this something that DVC should look into with a resolution to the "home owners" getting first prefrance?

It's unlikely that this would ever happen - even if members would OK it (I wouldn't), it is impractical to manage such a system.

Does it mean that the owner must actually be staying in the unit? Does it mean that if I make a reservation for my daughter (not an owner) but an "owner" wants it, her reservation gets cancelled so that the owner can have it?

If you mean owners get some type of "time preference" to make a reservation, you might still have the same problem. What if I make a reservation and then call later to add or change names? What if I don't show up, but my "guests" do? Do we make MS (or the front desk CMs) into "reservation police"?

I sympathize with your feelings. It is frustrating to be on the waitlist and see the time you want listed as "for rent". My point is only that the "cure" could be much worse than the "disease".

I agree with drushba - the actual amount of this activity is small in proportion to the number of members and points. The people who rent points have the same opportunity to reserve time as the rest of us. I hope the waitlist comes through for you and that you next reservation gets made without the waitlist.

 

[tripletvan]

Didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers & I definately didn't call anyone a jerk! I just was & am a bit upset that I followed the rules such as calling at the eleven month point for owners only to be on the wait list while non members are at our "home"

 

[Werner Weiss]

Originally posted by CarolMN
I agree with drushba - the actual amount of this activity is small in proportion to the number of members and points. The people who rent points have the same opportunity to reserve time as the rest of us.

I agree too.

The number of points that members rent out on the Internet or to their friends is probably tiny in relation to overall DVC activity. If you look at the return on investment when you take initial cost, annual dues, and business risks into account, it's really not a good business model.

If you're concerned about the effects of renting, a much bigger area of interest should be the number of nights that CRO rents out and what days and dates and seasons are transferred from DVC inventory to CRO inventory. That's where the big numbers are!

Every time a DVC member books a Disney Cruise, a Disney Collection hotel, a Concierge Collection hotel, or an Adventurer Collection package, such a transfer takes place. For example, if I book a Disney Cruise for 600 points, CRO gets a corresponding amount to DVC resort capacity to rent to cash guests; that generates the money to pay for the Disney Cruise.

I have no idea what percentage of points are used by DVC members to book cruises and "Collections," but I wouldn't be surprised if a third of all DVC points each year are used in this way. I have no reason to believe that anything is going on that's counter to the interests of DVC members. And I think most of us think the cruises and "Collections" are a valuable part of the DVC program (even when it's not the most efficient use of points).

Does anyone know the criteria for what seasons, dates, room sizes, "weekday vs. weekend," etc. are transferred from DVC to CRO? Is anyone concerned?

 

[Ricola]

I am concerned about how the "rules" apply to CRO's use of "points" transferred to them via member exchanges, and usable by them via "unsold inventory". I find it hard to believe that they need to sit on hold 11 months out (I doubt they use any points in the 7mo window) to get rooms during peak, desirable times.

As for the rest of the discussion on this thread, I think that rental of points is one of the by-products of the flexibility that we all enjoy in with the DVC program. I would not want to se it eliminated or curtailed, other than the "commercial use" already prohibited. What difference does it make whether I stay in my unit or whether someone else does? How does that affect costs? If I wanted to rent out a "peak" week, I'd have to go through the same process as anyone else that wanted it, and have an equal chance of getting it, right?

 

[MulanMom]

If I recall correctly, the POS for DVC, later OKW, mentioned something about DVD (Disney Vacation Development) retaining 4% of the ownership interest to rent out to the public via CRO. I would think any openings generated by trade-outs would provide inventory in addition to that amount.

It can be frustrating not getting what you want (i.e. a reservation you're on a waitlist for or a building you wanted for a special occasion....yep, been there!), and it's easy to resent others who did get it. However, there will always be non-DVC members at the resorts.

I don't think the renting for profit issue is large enough to really make much of an impact on the regular DVCrs. MS is in a position to see if it becomes a problem and would most likely be the only one to start any action against it.

Just my .02!

Sharon

 

[CaptainMidnight]

I'd have to go through the same process as anyone else that wanted it, and have an equal chance of getting it, right?

Nope, it's a different ballgame and is by no means the same.

Families and individuals normally using DVC for thier vacations would balance time away from work, and other variables to help balance out how often they would actually be able to go during the peak times, if they want to use that level of points, which ends up providing a balance and resonableness of use, while a "scalper" type operation would not be balancing those variables, just going for the high dollar peak times to try to turn a profit. Two different usage patterns, two different motives, one I'm OK with, one I dissagree with, not that I have much of a say other than to voice my concern here.

Renting your points out because something fell through, you couldn't go that year, those kids of things are fine with me. Comercial use where reservations are made without any intent to stay and sold out only for profit is not OK with me, and I suspect and read above, several others. Renting shouldn't be elliminated. Abuse of the renting priviledge for comercial purposes is a different matter and probably should be addressed.

Perhaps we could also start talking about the locals coming in and using the resort pools somewhere in this discussion?

 

[MulanMom]

Originally posted by CaptainMidnight
Perhaps we could also start talking about the locals coming in and using the resort pools somewhere in this discussion?

That has happened to us many years ago. It was before kids, so we were able to spend many hours lounging by the main pool at OKW. Everyday, the same three ladies were there. We thought they were other vacationers as well. But one day, we overheard conversation that indicated they were locals but not staying in rooms at the resort.

I haven't encountered anything like that since. I didn't realize it was a common practice.

Sharon

 

[Ricola]

Originally posted by CaptainMidnight


Families and individuals normally using DVC for thier vacations would balance time away from work, and other variables to help balance out how often they would actually be able to go during the peak times, if they want to use that level of points, which ends up providing a balance and resonableness of use

So someone who is retired or someone who always wants to stay Christmas Week without "variation" shouldn't be allowed? Don't scalpers have to call for a ressie 11 months out just like you, me, and everyone else? I would assume that sometimes they are unsuccessful. And if someone is forced to rent points, why shouldn't they choose to reserve during a time when they are likely to be able to rent them?

The high demand times are just that, high demand. Usually because they are the times when more people want to and are available to go (holidays, summer, spring break...) For DVC members, and for the general public. That's why they cost more, in points and dollars.

As I said, other than strictly commercial use (never intending to stay), I think people have a right to use their points as they see fit. Why do you have more right to a room than someone else who has paid (through the person they are renting from) the same amount as you?

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by CaptainMidnight


Nonsense, if they have the extra points and desire the room, a two bedroom is one thing. But that's no analogy to reserving peak times for profit.

With a point system and people deliberately booking the hard to get sought after dates that by normally predicted demand would be available only to sell them as a business venture is a violation of fair use practices in my opinion and a business venture that is not consistent with the DVC contract.

If you own fixed weeks and rent them, I don't see that as the same thing as reserving hard to get DVC periods with no intention of every staying and putting the reservations up for sale. That seems like pretty much "scalping" type endevour, and while I see lots of them outside big event venues, it doesn't make it right.

My hope is that the rent/trade board is a vehicle to make up for missed plans, a vacation that fell through, or something like this. I guess I just have too much faith in people's good nature.

Dean, you have many great contributions to this forum, but I'm going to differ with you on this one. But I won't be labor it. Hope your next visit to DVC is a nice one.

It's ok to disagree and we do on this point. In my view it's really no different than the fixed week/unit analogy. AS LONG AS THE MEMBER GOT THE RESERVATIONS IN A WAY THAT WAS THEORETICALLY AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE, it's their unit to rent, use etc. The fact that one person can't schedule a full 11 months out for some reason or can't call when thy open is irrelevent. I know you didn't propose this but it's been a common "reason" why some say it "isn't fair". I'd have to agree that reservations gotten not available to all MEMBERS AT THAT RESORT, like the special season preference list or the lottery, is a different story and probably not appropriate to rent. I'm sorry that some people feel that other owners OWE them something. I consider many on this board and other boards to be my friend but don't feel I owe them any more than I owe any one else, simply to be honest and fair. We all bought into this system and must take the good with the bad. Having such a flexible points system gives this type of situation.

While I've rented my points several times, I've never went out and gotten Xmas or whatever with the express purpose of renting. I can't remember ever renting Xmas or Easter. I simply chose not to do it this way. The only time I've used an auction for DVC is when I had a member agree to rent then back out after I'd borrowed the points. I then put it on auction and got exactly what I asked for it and what I had agreed upon before the person backed out. This is one of the reasons I get a little miffed when people start talking about renting only to members as this was the only negative issue I've had renting and it was with a member who is also a member of this board. Every person I've rented to that wasn't a member has been in awe. I've even gotten gifts after they returned they were so impressed and appreciative. I'll shut up now, at least for now.

 

[fkj2]

Did I miss something? I didn't realize this was a "heated" discussion. Actually, I thought pretty much the contrary....some good points were brought out and Dean is right, it is OK to disagree.

I rented points out this year due to circumstances whereby I can't presently use them, although I do schedule some time just in case my personal situation would allow me a break, which truthfully, I really need. On the other hand, I don't want to lose the equivalent monetary value of the points. And, like Dean, I don't schedule or hold Christmas or Easter. And then there is the issue of CRO; I'm sure Dis hasn't any second thoughts when that inventory is freed up to "rent".

I'm not sure it would be such a bad think to even out the points over the seven days. That would eliminate this Sun through Thursday thing. As it is, I sometimes spend my first night offsite, just to save on those high point nights but there's an inconvenience to moving the next day. Plus, Dis inadvertantly created some of these problems. It used to be The early part of December was a "slow" time but now that the point requirements are low and the Holiday decorations are such a draw, that it no longer is a "slow" season. The same can be said about the time in Oct/Nov with the Wine Festival.








.

 

[Lhargus]

_fkj2__________________________________________________
I'm not sure it would be such a bad think to even out the points over the seven days. That would eliminate this Sun through Thursday thing. As it is, I sometimes spend my first night offsite, just to save on those high point nights but there's an inconvenience to moving the next day.
___________________________________________________

The only problem with evening out the points is that local members could then take most of the week-ends leaving the rest of us out in the cold for week long trips.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by tripletvan
Didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers & I definately didn't call anyone a jerk! I just was & am a bit upset that I followed the rules such as calling at the eleven month point for owners only to be on the wait list while non members are at our "home"

I don't really think you ruffled anyone's feathers. You just sparked a discussion that has occurred from time to time previously. I'm confused a little though. Did you call at exactly 11 months out at 9 am each day for your reservarion and not be able to get what you needed? While I understand your frustration the other member also called and used their points which they are also entitled to do as an owner.

As to evening out the weekend points, I don't think making it exactly even would be the answer unless the minimum stay were increase to at least 3 days. If the usage is too uneven weekend vs weekday, DVC should adjust the points somewhat but just fine tuning. I can tell you if the points for the weekend and weekday were the same, I'd stay about 10 long weekends per year.

 

[tripletvan]

Yes I called starting at 9:00 am eleven months out but did not get through until nearly 11:00 am that day due to the lines being busy and working in a classroom and not being able to stay on hold for long periods of time( I have been on hold for up to 35 minutes) . I did try diffrent combinations as I really needed a two bedroom at our BW home for medical needs (having a therapist with us that needs to be with us in the same unit). All I was able to get was a studio and a one bedroom that we don't even know if they will be on the same floor although I have requested and had a medical necessity notated on the confirmation. MS said that they cannot tell us that we will get what we want but we can find out 24 hours in advance

 

[hindle]

I definetly agree that this is a great forum to hear different points of view. I am not offended in the least from any comments as long as you all are aware that I am far from a scalper. I will also say that to do this as a business for profit is very hard. It is not easy to rent points. I have tried in the past but members and non-members are looking for specific dates which may not be available thus you are constantly on the phone calling them and calling the resort. It is near impossible.

I am new at this too and I don't think I thought of members opinions and feelings before. It just never occured to me. So thank you for bring it my attention. I will think before I leap going forward that is for sure.

Also, my reservation was for a studio, so I don't think I took your reservation.

Take Care Everyone and continue to enjoy Disney. I know I do.

 

[Dean]

tripletvan, did you call every day or just the last day for all of your request? Sorry you didn't get what you needed, I hope you get it from the wait list and would expect you would. Good luck.

 

[DisneyCrazy]

Originally posted by Richyams

Almost all renting is done Sun-Thurs.

This inordinate use of weekdays hurts the occupancy rates and has two bad effects, it raises our dues and makes it more likely that DVD will have to even out weekdays vs weekends.

.

I too would welcome the evening out of points for weekends. I have NEVER stayed at DVC on a weekend because of this. We cannot afford more points so in order to maximize our trips we stay somewhere else for the weekend, or cut our trip short should we not be able to get a good deal somewhere else (Disney, or in the case of our upcoming trip Portofino Bay).

I'm sure this thread will be moved to the debate board soon - maybe we can start a discussion of the pros/cons of evening out the points...

 

[PamOKW]

Although, I really don't like the whole concept of renting to strangers for money, I think there is a better way to do it that "evens things out.". Instead of renting points to people who really have no idea what that means, why not set prices?

If someone is checking in on Friday and out on Wednesday don't say it's $220 for Fri. & Sat. nights and $120 for Monday & Tuesday. The reservation will cost $170 per night or $680.

Members still face the decision of whether to spend the higher amount of points for themselves, but renters shouldn't be concerned about it. They are just given a price.

 

[Dean]

Pam, most people who want to rent want to know how many points it is or already know how many points then they want the price per point. Also, it's actually illegal for us to get together and set the prices, a violation of federal law.

 

[auntsue]

A while back when I first read about 'evening out' the points for all seven days, I thought it was a great idea, and I was ready to vote 'yes, yes, yes.' But then I read Pam's reply and the point that many other people have made, that if you even out points, the locals and members within driving distance would take up all the weekends, and then when I flew in from NJ, I wouldn't be able to stay our normal eight days. That would be disasterous for me. So, I must say that I have changed my mind about wanting the points the same every day. I really need the weekends, and would hate to see them not available because they are priced so low. I just don't see how you can eliminate the renting of points for profit. They must have an awful lot of points if they are renting out Christmas week, because for just five nights, a 2BR is costing us 362 points. Weekends were 106. Yikes!

 

[PamOKW]

Dean, I realize that prices can't be set by the group. I'm just trying to explain the concept -- not very well I guess. Just re-read my post and "set" may be the confusing word. I mean for the individual to offer a price for the reservation rather than a price per point....not any kind of group "price setting".

I understand that people who frequent the boards now sort of understand about the points but I still think it can be explained. Just like those of use who stay a week know we are spending "X" points for the entire week rather than "X" points on each day. If you rent a house on Cape Cod for a week they don't tell you it's $100 a night, they say it's $700 for the week. If someone wants to rent a week at DVC, why can't they be given a price of $380 instead of breaking out the cost per day? Isn't that how much of the bidding is done on E-Bay? Bidding for a trip rather than for the "points"? In reality, they aren't renting points but are paying you to use a reservation that you make at a DVC resort. You could still break it down to a price per point if that's what they want to know. A week in a VWL studio is 104 points. 12 points weekdays and 22 points on weekends. The price for a one week reservation is 1,040. That's $148.57 per night or $10 per point. If they want to stay 4 weeknights it's $480, $120 per night and $10 per point. If they want to stay 2 weekend nights it's $440, $220 per night or $10 per point.