does this happen alot, people who make reservations only to sell then?

[tripletvan]

I was just looking at the rent/ trade boards & noticed a couple of the dates that I am on the waiting list for are "for sale". Is this an acceptable practice? Won't it hurt those who are members from getting their reservations while any Joe can "buy" a reservation at a members home without joining DVC?

 

[Cinderella]

Joe, I know it must be upsetting but, I think some people make bookings then rent them out cos it is easier that way. I did notice on ebay that the bids were higher for points that gave definite dates.

But, over the millennium, some people were trying to rent out points for ridiculous sums and I don't think they all got sold.

I suppose that those points belong to another member somewhere and they are entitled to do what they want with them too.

Have you gone on a waitlist. Maybe something will come up if you do that.

 

[Peterd]

I agree tripletvan, it use to bother us too, but there's nothing we can do about it. I know they can do with their points whatever they want to, but sometimes it doesn't seem right that a non DVC member can "buy" a ressie that you're waiting for on the waiting list. It used to be great before the BW and Okw sold out, we could leave a day early for our trip and get lucky and pick up an extra night at the last minute. Not anymore. It now forces you to use the eleven month window almost all the time. You could always answer the person's ad for the nights you want, and ask to trade your future points for the resv. Then bank the ones you would use for this year. The person trading with you doesn't lose the points, and you get what you want. I wouldn't get upset over it though, eventually, when enough people complain, they'll have to change it.Good Luck on the waiting list!

 

[Pluto4President]

Well, you are not "supposed" to rent out your points for a "commerical" purpose. It does, however, seem that some of the posters on the Rent/Trade board do just that. But you also have to look at their posting habits. Some of the ridiculously cheaper points are from "new posters" or phantom posters.

 

[Dean]

I suspect I'm going to regret this but we've been through this before. Members are expressly allowed to rent the points, it's mentioned in a number of places in the legal paperwork. There is one piece of info preventing renting as a commercial venture. Renting one's regular points could not reasonably be construed as a "commercial venture" and whether a profit is made or not has no real bearing on the situation. The reality is that any member that rents their points can legally and by DVC rules do so. DVC could not prevent the rental anyway, no more than they could keep you from renting out a condo you might own.

In order to be in violation of the POS and legally enforceable, one would need to have an actualy Business of renting points. Those that would like to label any non family rental over the dues fees as a commercial rental are, as my daughter would say, delusioned.

While I know it's frustrating to see what you need on the open market, it's reality. The only way to prevent this issue would be to have fixed weeks and fixed units but I don't think we want to go there. This is no different than someone that gets a 2 BR and only need a 1 BR. If someone has what you want, go get it at an agreed upon price.

 

[tripletvan]

Hey I don't live in a perfect world but it just rubbed me the wrong way & I was curious as to the frequency of this practice. This may be a negative in many peoples eyes. Why buy if you can rent & get almost all the benefits?

 

[BuzzandWoody]

I had a ressie at BWV the 1st week of May.
We since decided we couldn't go. I tried renting the reservation on the rent/trade board.

I had to use these points this year, and had to go this route.
Things happen in peoples lives. Although there are those that do it for a profit I guess.

Got alot of inquires for other dates at other places.

I canceled that reservation and rented the points to other locations.

I know I made someone happy that was on the wait list for this week.

Most people already have dates that they want to go.

Stay on the waitlist and hope they cancel.

Good Luck

 

[Pluto4President]

no reason to regret Dean, nicely worded.

 

[nuthut]

Well said, Dean.

Why try to control what others do with their property?

 

[Werner Weiss]

Originally posted by tripletvan
Won't it hurt those who are members from getting their reservations while any Joe can "buy" a reservation at a members home without joining DVC?

Keep in mind that the points that members own at DVC resorts correspond directly to the available member room inventory at those resorts.

It doesn't matter if a member uses points to occupy DVC accomodations, to rent out DVC accomodations, to exchange DVC accomodations into II for a week somewhere else, or to book accomodations requiring Reservation Points such as a cruise or Concierge Collection resort (in which case the equivalent DVC vacation points go to CRO which then rents the DVC accomodations to cash guests).

None of these ways of using points either increase or decrease the capacity available to other DVC members. When "any Joe" stays at a DVC resort for cash, whether renting from a DVC member or from CRO, that stay was paid for with DVC vacation points, just as if a member had stayed. (Note: CRO also rents out undeclared inventory at DVC resorts that have not yet sold out, but such inventory can't be booked with points anyway.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

This is no different than someone that gets a 2 BR and only need a 1 BR.

Nonsense, if they have the extra points and desire the room, a two bedroom is one thing. But that's no analogy to reserving peak times for profit.

With a point system and people deliberately booking the hard to get sought after dates that by normally predicted demand would be available only to sell them as a business venture is a violation of fair use practices in my opinion and a business venture that is not consistent with the DVC contract.

If you own fixed weeks and rent them, I don't see that as the same thing as reserving hard to get DVC periods with no intention of every staying and putting the reservations up for sale. That seems like pretty much "scalping" type endevour, and while I see lots of them outside big event venues, it doesn't make it right.

My hope is that the rent/trade board is a vehicle to make up for missed plans, a vacation that fell through, or something like this. I guess I just have too much faith in people's good nature.

Dean, you have many great contributions to this forum, but I'm going to differ with you on this one. But I won't be labor it. Hope your next visit to DVC is a nice one.

 

[PamOKW]

This is a discussion that comes up from time to time. I'm in agreement with Captain Midnight's line of reasoning. As long as the number of people who are playing the system remains small, the DVC system will continue to work. When it becomes one rental company vs. another rental company vying for prime rental periods we will have a problem. Just like everyone theoretically has a "fair" chance to get tickets for major events, we know scalpers end up with the lion's share.....that can't be allowed to happen at DVC and I hope that DVC has a method to prevent that from happening.

 

[hindle]

Hello All

Ok, I will admit that I am the "jerk" who posted the sought after vacation week. I apologize for any misunderstandings that may have happened with the upset DVC member. However, I booked that vacation with every intention of going. I go every year with my family. It is the only place I go on vacation. I admit that I am new to this but I did not make this reservation with the only intention of selling them for a major profit (i.e., scalping as someone would suggest). I lost my job in January and really can't afford to go. I thought if I could sell the reservations for those exact dates, Great!! If not, then I would still go on those dates. CONSIDER THIS.... I have plane tickets for those dates too. I will lose that as well.

Even though I don't owe any of you an explanation for my actions I thought you should all be aware that there is always a story behind everything and what you are thinking is way off base. I'm awful sorry if you wanted those dates and if they get cancelled I will let you know.

 

[PamOKW]

Hindle -- I wasn't even paying any attention to a specific case. Your situation is the type that I think most people are okay with renting. My problem is with the small, but possibly growing, trend of folks who are really into a rental business. They are not using their points for personal purposes. They aren't even finding a person who wants to go to DVC and booking the dates they want. They are intentionally booking during the prime seasons with the sole intent of selling the reservation. They have no intention of using those dates themselves and have discovered they like making money more than they like using DVC for their vacation.

 

[Peterd]

Pam, I agree.
Remember when a few, ( as I would like to call them)scalpers reserved up GVs at the Okw over the millenium new year? The only purpose was to MAKE money. They were not struck with some sort of change in life, that they had to sell. They were there for one thing only, to lock up a prime time spot and sell it to make money.
Hindle, stuff happens. We all know it here, so you were not being singled out. Most people didn't read your rental post, but as Pam said, most people don't have a problem with it. Don't take it personal. I earlier mentioned for the poster to offer an exchange in points, that could possibly benefit both of the parties.
It's ok to disagree. I agree with the poster that it does bother me sometimes when you're on a waiting list for a week, and someone is selling it to a non member. I also agree, that they are your' points, and you or anyone else can sell them to anyone you want to.

 

[Richyams]

Renting does hurt us and the vast majority of it is done in a manner that really hurts us.

Almost all renting is done Sun-Thurs.

This inordinate use of weekdays hurts the occupancy rates and has two bad effects, it raises our dues and makes it more likely that DVD will have to even out weekdays vs weekends.

I also agree that there is nothing we can do about it, but it is a bad thing when it is done as a business.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

Hindle,
I wasn't thinking of your specific case either. And, a DVC who intends on vacationing, but has to change thier plans for some reason, (and I can think of a ton of them, like jobs, new children, health reasons, etc.) should be able to sell their points to try to recoup thier $$$. I'm glad that option is available. I think I described the actions with which I have a problem, so I won't redescribe it here. I just didn't want you to have the wrong impression that I was singling you out, because that was not my intent.

But using DVC as a for-profit, grab up the best reservation times with no intent to stay, only to sell to others to make money "business approach" is not OK with me.

Hope things work out OK for you.

 

[drusba]

If we go back to the original question-- do you think this happens a lot--I believe the answer is no. Consider that DVC has about 60,000 members. As far as a rental market goes, it is essentially non-existent except on the internet. You have a place on this site and a couple of other sites and e-bay to rent and thus if you look closely enough you can see about everything that is going on in the rental market. You will see a handful of people who seem to be in the business of renting, some others who appear to rent out some of their points mainly to cover dues and perhaps make a few bucks, and, for the most part, a dozen or two members at any given time trying to rent stays they have to give up because they cannot now go or members renting points because they cannot use them before they expire. In other words it looks like there is a very tiny rental market when you consider that there are 60,000 members.

Moreover, it is not the kind of market where someone can go into the business of renting and expect to make a lot of money. First there are limitations on the number of points anyone can buy (2,000 at one resort, 5,000 total) and thus rent. Second, the average rental rate of $10 a point is not reassuring to persons who would want to be in the business of renting--they have to pay high dollars for the points, they have to pay dues, they have to find customers, deal with the risk of market collapses like right after Sep 11, and expect other problems like customers who cancel, fail to pay, or expect you to be available 10 times a day for a phone call to talk about the reservation. Moreover, if they are in the "business" of renting (meaning they are essentially doing nothing but buying lots of points and then renting them all), they are required to remit the regular resort rental tax (11% for WDW area resorts) to the appropriate government authorities.

In other words, I do not look at it as something to get concerned about. The problem with surfing the internet is that many get to see the renting that is going on but don't consider that they are actually seeing ALL the renting that is going on and it isn't much. Members retain the right to rent. The "commercial venture" limitation in the documents really applies only to someone who actually does go into the business of renting with no intent of using any points himself. There may be some of those but not not enough to cause any real concern.

 

[tripletvan]

Wow I didn't know how heated this would become as I am fairly new at this and somewhat aggitated that I have tried at the 11 month point to make a reservation only to be waitlisted for my "home" and see that non DVC can get what I tried fairly to get.
Is this something that DVC should look into with a resolution to the "home owners" getting first prefrance? I don't know just a thought.Not out to upset anyone.

 

[HeatherPage]

The only thing I can say is you'd have to be "nuts" to not think there are a few people out there renting their DVC points strictly for profit.