Does David's tell you if the renter cancels?

[fsjking]

I've been thinking a lot of the contract as well. Beyond the contract, this will set precedence to how the brokers operate. A rather simple inventory change would alleviate the risk here. If they have a good enough database of UY for people; the brokers can simply make sure reservations are not approaching UY. Meaning, if Davids has a renter for May; they can make an internal process change to avoid using a June UY to fulfill that reservation. Instead build it in so that any potential cancellation would allow the owner to bank and start with a minimum of October UY. Or, utilize one that is already past the banking point. Sure it would stress the inventory a little, but I'd imagine that would give a lot of peace of mind to owners and renters of not having to worry about the fight (as much) over contract language. I'd imagine owners would complain a lot less about "non-refundable" if their points were able to be fully usable/bankable still.

I don't think they have enough inventory at one time to be picky. I tried to book a December reservation a few weeks ago through them and the points were not available. I asked which resorts they did have points for and the answer was pretty much none except maybe SSR.

 

[CraigInPA]

I've been thinking a lot of the contract as well. Beyond the contract, this will set precedence to how the brokers operate. A rather simple inventory change would alleviate the risk here. If they have a good enough database of UY for people; the brokers can simply make sure reservations are not approaching UY. Meaning, if Davids has a renter for May; they can make an internal process change to avoid using a June UY to fulfill that reservation. Instead build it in so that any potential cancellation would allow the owner to bank and start with a minimum of October UY. Or, utilize one that is already past the banking point. Sure it would stress the inventory a little, but I'd imagine that would give a lot of peace of mind to owners and renters of not having to worry about the fight (as much) over contract language. I'd imagine owners would complain a lot less about "non-refundable" if their points were able to be fully usable/bankable still.

In a perfect world, perhaps... But no broker has figured out how to get enough points to fulfill every request, let alone have an inventory of points to optimize. as associates. The current broker model fulfills requests as soon as therer is a match, without any concept of ideally optimizing the points.

 

[CraigInPA]

Any renter who is unable to use a room due to resort closure should not lose a dime. It’s actually pretty simple. Order and pay $3,000 for a top of the line computer on Amazon. They can’t say we don’t have that model in stock so we are just going to keep your money. There is no need to parse the contract - there is no contract when it can’t be executed.

The "there is no contract" argument is a simplistic one which ignores the reality that both parties fulfilled their part of the contract and, through no fault of their own, suffered economic loss.

You need to recognize that the failure to be able to execute the contract in full was caused by a third party, not the parties who entered into the agreement. That is what is called Force Majeure. It's a standard clause in virtually every contract between businesses, but was not included in the broker's contract (despite common sense and history that shows it should have been included).

The renter rented a reservation, and deserves a new reservation or a refund, despite the "no refunds or changes" wording. The owner used points which had value when rented and may not now, so the owner should be paid in full for those points. The broker put these parties together, drafted the contract, and collected and dispersed the money. The broker also had separate contracts with each party. The broker is not acting as commissioned agent or escrow agent (which would greatly limit their liability) because the broker is actually buying, marking up, and selling the product. Ultimately, the broker is responsible to both parties because of how their business model works.

Some brokers may not make it through this, and others will have their business model changed dramatically. Expect to see new agreements from brokers going forward.

 

[tubtruck]

I haven’t received the payment that was promised in the last email I received from David’s upon agreeing to reschedule the renters reservation, checkin was supposed to have been yesterday..

 

[Cyberc1978]

Maybe the issue wont be that big, I heard that Trump is considering opening back up the country again.

At least not big for Davids or other brokers if the country opens back up and resorts will too. That way only a smaller number of renters will be impacted in March. By little I mean a small number compared to what it could or will be if April will see cancellations too.

ps. I'm not going into the discussion about the right or wrong in opening the country at this point.

 

[Yinn]

Maybe the issue wont be that big, I heard that Trump is considering opening back up the country again.

At least not big for Davids or other brokers if the country opens back up and resorts will too. That way only a smaller number of renters will be impacted in March. By little I mean a small number compared to what it could or will be if April will see cancellations too.

ps. I'm not going into the discussion about the right or wrong in opening the country at this point.

Just because he opens the country (ie, imports/exports/international travelers) doesn't mean the individual states would fall in line though. I can't see the NY Governor budging, I don't live there but he seems like a stubborn sob. And if individual states do their own thing, it may create further complication.

I think I read FL was requiring travelers from the northeast to quarantine for 14 days upon arrival (rumor, did not confirm factually) I think for the purposes of this thread, we'd be in the same place.

Owner: Park was open, they no showed. Where's my money?
Renter: Um, why would I fly in to Florida just to quarantine myself for the entire vacation?

 

[tallguy001]

Florida is requiring anybody traveling from NY, NJ, CT to Florida to self-quarantine for 14 days.

‘Travelers will be met on board planes by local or state law enforcement, as well as personnel from the Florida Department of Health, adding that passengers going to stay with family in Florida would not be exempt from the executive order.”

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/politics/florida-coronavirus-new-york-new-jersey/index.html

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

The "there is no contract" argument is a simplistic one which ignores the reality that both parties fulfilled their part of the contract and, through no fault of their own, suffered economic loss.

You need to recognize that the failure to be able to execute the contract in full was caused by a third party, not the parties who entered into the agreement. That is what is called Force Majeure. It's a standard clause in virtually every contract between businesses, but was not included in the broker's contract (despite common sense and history that shows it should have been included).

The renter rented a reservation, and deserves a new reservation or a refund, despite the "no refunds or changes" wording. The owner used points which had value when rented and may not now, so the owner should be paid in full for those points. The broker put these parties together, drafted the contract, and collected and dispersed the money. The broker also had separate contracts with each party. The broker is not acting as commissioned agent or escrow agent (which would greatly limit their liability) because the broker is actually buying, marking up, and selling the product. Ultimately, the broker is responsible to both parties because of how their business model works.

Some brokers may not make it through this, and others will have their business model changed dramatically. Expect to see new agreements from brokers going forward.

This is a great description of the situation.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Maybe the issue wont be that big, I heard that Trump is considering opening back up the country again.

At least not big for Davids or other brokers if the country opens back up and resorts will too. That way only a smaller number of renters will be impacted in March. By little I mean a small number compared to what it could or will be if April will see cancellations too.

ps. I'm not going into the discussion about the right or wrong in opening the country at this point.

I agree. I think things will flip very quickly here. The governor of ny is starting today giving patients an anti-malaria drug that has so far cured 100% of the people who have used it. (Thanks to the French doctor who discovered this). I think that is part of why Trump is saying things will open soon. Not a political comment, but I was really pleased to see Cuomo and Trump work together to make this happen. Their working together has been the most positive thing I have seen in all of this. Cuomo is implementing the plan and Trump helped get fast fda approval and the drug supply.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Owner: Park was open, they no showed. Where's my money?
Renter: Um, why would I fly in to Florida just to quarantine myself for the entire vacation?

Just playing devil's advocate here...

In this example, the renter was not deprived of the accommodations they rented (in which they could remain quarantined), so I don't think that justification would hold water.

Not being able to leave the room you rented is not the same as not having the room you rented available to stay in.

 

[Sandisw]

Just because he opens the country (ie, imports/exports/international travelers) doesn't mean the individual states would fall in line though. I can't see the NY Governor budging, I don't live there but he seems like a stubborn sob. And if individual states do their own thing, it may create further complication.

I think I read FL was requiring travelers from the northeast to quarantine for 14 days upon arrival (rumor, did not confirm factually) I think for the purposes of this thread, we'd be in the same place.

Owner: Park was open, they no showed. Where's my money?
Renter: Um, why would I fly in to Florida just to quarantine myself for the entire vacation?

I am from central NY and my DD 27 lives in Manhattan as she works for Disney Theater, It makes sense for us to be on the shut down, especially given the cases there,

From what they have heard, Broadway is shut down until mid April and she is working from home at least until then.

Yes, Florida governor signed into law that flights from the NYC area are being stopped at the gate, and passengers will be told to self quarantine for 14 days, which does not include going to family and friends,

So, even if Disney opens the resorts sooner than the parks, renters from those areas may have to cancel because of that restriction.

 

[TCRAIG]

I was really hoping DVC and Disney would announce their new estimated opening date so April ressies can get sorted out...finding it impossible to believe they’ll open 4/1

 

[toniosmom]

Maybe the issue wont be that big, I heard that Trump is considering opening back up the country again.

I can't imagine this happening as quickly as Trump is stating. I don't believe anyone can venture a guess on this at this point. I understand what he means about wanting to keep the economy moving, but not at the cost of lives. Sorry, I don't think my elderly parents' lives are worth sacrificing for a better economy. Our economy will eventually recover....but once you're dead, you're dead. We won't peak in new cases for a good three weeks. Once new cases start to come down, perhaps a couple of weeks later.....

I'm in NJ and NY is considered the epicenter of the outbreak in this country. In NY alone, there are about 26k positive cases (with about 15k in NYC alone) and climbing by the thousands every day. We are going to be locked down for a good month, at the very least. I guess my point is that this is going to be a very slow recovery.

 

[Mickey of the Villages]

[

As long as resorts are closed - A contract is invalid if there is no consideration. If the resort is closed, there is no consideration given to the renter. Therefore the entire contract is void. Specific terms of the contract are irrelevant if the contract is void. A situation clearly never thought out by David and his attorneys (to be fair, we are in unchartered territory here). The question here is who will be on the hook for paying the renters back. My understanding is that renters pay David (and the other companies) directly. Therefore, any credit card chargebacks will be against David. I doubt they have enough in reserve to pay the impacted renters back. David will rightfully try and obtain money back from the owners, but who knows how that will go.

Of course many travelers are going to want to cancel later dates, when closures have not been announced. This is where contract language is crucial.

I am not trying to be argumentative, so please don't take this post in that way.

I disagree that there was no consideration. The consideration the owner gives is giving up her right to use the points for the benefit of a reservation for someone else. That is all the owner can ever do in this situation because the owner has no control over any other aspect of this.

The object of this contract is a reservation made with the points belonging to the owner. That was done (I presume). In order to guard against risk of loss the renter must buy insurance or live with all risks known or unknown.

Again, I'm not trying to be a stinker and folks can disagree but I thought I would raise this side of the argument.

 

[Yinn]

Just playing devil's advocate here...

In this example, the renter was not deprived of the accommodations they rented (in which they could remain quarantined), so I don't think that justification would hold water.

Not being able to leave the room you rented is not the same as not having the room you rented available to stay in.

That’s my perspective as well, I can just complaints out of it. Partly because I think some - not all - of the complaints on here are also due to renter initiated cancellations instead of park closure cancellations.

Florida is requiring anybody traveling from NY, NJ, CT to Florida to self-quarantine for 14 days.

‘Travelers will be met on board planes by local or state law enforcement, as well as personnel from the Florida Department of Health, adding that passengers going to stay with family in Florida would not be exempt from the executive order.”

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/politics/florida-coronavirus-new-york-new-jersey/index.html

I am from central NY and my DD 27 lives in Manhattan as she works for Disney Theater, It makes sense for us to be on the shut down, especially given the cases there,

From what they have heard, Broadway is shut down until mid April and she is working from home at least until then.

Yes, Florida governor signed into law that flights from the NYC area are being stopped at the gate, and passengers will be told to self quarantine for 14 days, which does not include going to family and friends,

So, even if Disney opens the resorts sooner than the parks, renters from those areas may have to cancel because of that restriction.

So realistically, even though closure hasn’t been announced past March 31, parks are off limits to those areas until at least mid-April and if they announce a two week extension? These people can expect to stay out of parks until May.

That’s pretty significant, especially if it extends to other areas as well.

 

[Sandisw]

[

I am not trying to be argumentative, so please don't take this post in that way.

I disagree that there was no consideration. The consideration the owner gives is giving up her right to use the points for the benefit of a reservation for someone else. That is all the owner can ever do in this situation because the owner has no control over any other aspect of this.

The object of this contract is a reservation made with the points belonging to the owner. That was done (I presume). In order to guard against risk of loss the renter must buy insurance or live with all risks known or unknown.

Again, I'm not trying to be a stinker and folks can disagree but I thought I would raise this side of the argument.

I think that is why this discussion is so difficult. With resorts closed the renter is not getting the reservation so the argument can’t be they aren’t entitled to some sort of restitution because they did not cancel.

The legal question is who has to be held responsible for that since Disney made the decision, taking it out of the hands of owneers.

It is a situation no one...owners, brokers or renters...accounted for when they made these contracts, That is what I see as the huge wrench in this system.

When renters are successful in getting money back via CC disputes, the broker is now on the hook. if that happens in a lot of cases, it will be difficult moving forward for them.

i can’t imagine that any broker won’t have a clause now, for owners and rentals alike, that doesn’t detail what happens for resort closures. If the renter has to agree to forfeit all funds, then the price they pay is going to have to be substantial and current rates, IMO, don’t support that. If the owner has to agree to give up something, like maybe the 30%, there will be less willing to go that route.

I don’t know the answer other than I think this is going to have a big impact on the rental market.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

I'm stuck in an awkward situtaion with Aulani right now. Rented points for a stay from April 18-25th and Aulani is closed until March 31st despite the rest of the Island banning gatherings and resturatants being available for eat in through the end of April. I emailed David's and of course they are too busy with dealing with all the cancellations of Disney World stays. But, like previous posters mentioned, Hawaii is implementing a two week quarantine for anyone going to visit the islands. I can't even go if I want because I can't spend 3 weeks on a one week vacation, where nothing will be open. I was very excited to try renting points for the first time but because of this weird logistical nightmare where the rental company isn't prepared to do anything (I'd gladly try and reschedule for later this year), my husband is quite annoyed. I have a feeling I'm just going to be out my 4500 dollars, but at least United will let me cancel my flight for a refund.

 

[CarolynFH]

Sorry, I don't think my elderly parents' lives are worth sacrificing for a better economy.

The Lieutenant Governor for the great state of Texas has stated that he’s willing to sacrifice himself for the good of the economy. However, I’m with you - I’m not willing to sacrifice my 94-year-old dad, my husband or myself, so if restrictions are loosened we’ll continue to isolate ourselves as much as possible. That means we won’t see our adult kids, who work in healthcare and are at high risk, nor the grandkids, who will presumably go back to school, until we’re sure they’ve had it and are immune and therefore can’t give it to us....

 

[MICKIMINI]

I'm stuck in an awkward situtaion with Aulani right now. Rented points for a stay from April 18-25th and Aulani is closed until March 31st despite the rest of the Island banning gatherings and resturatants being available for eat in through the end of April. I emailed David's and of course they are too busy with dealing with all the cancellations of Disney World stays. But, like previous posters mentioned, Hawaii is implementing a two week quarantine for anyone going to visit the islands. I can't even go if I want because I can't spend 3 weeks on a one week vacation, where nothing will be open. I was very excited to try renting points for the first time but because of this weird logistical nightmare where the rental company isn't prepared to do anything (I'd gladly try and reschedule for later this year), my husband is quite annoyed. I have a feeling I'm just going to be out my 4500 dollars, but at least United will let me cancel my flight for a refund.

Did you buy travel insurance?

 

[foodiddiedoo]

Travel insurance doesn't cover pandemics, so it wouldn't really help.