Does David's tell you if the renter cancels?

[purplenancy27]

Am I missing something (very likely)?

I have not rented points in the past nor used Dave's as a broker. But if the contract is final and non-refundable and no cancellations are permitted then that's the end of it.

I don't disagree that this is a very real hardship for folks.

I've signed contracts for things in my life that turned out to be bad deals. I had to keep paying.

No cancellation by the renter if they cancel - no refund.
If resort is closed- then contract is not being fulfilled. Renter is not receiving what was paid and agreed to.

 

[Yinn]

Am I missing something (very likely)?

I have not rented points in the past nor used Dave's as a broker. But if the contract is final and non-refundable and no cancellations are permitted then that's the end of it.

I don't disagree that this is a very real hardship for folks.

I've signed contracts for things in my life that turned out to be bad deals. I had to keep paying.

The contract isn't as cut and dry as that. It mentions non-refundable multiple times, but it also makes provisions for availability of the reservation - which can't be available if the resort is closed.

Just to be clear as well, there are different types of "cancellation" which may be adding to the confusion.

1) Renter initiated cancellation. (ie, change in circumstance, no longer wants to or can't go)
2) Owner initiated cancellation. (ie, change of heart, no longer wants to rent)
3) Disney initiated cancellation. (ie, Resort Closure)

Most DVC contracts have accounted for 1 & 2. If it's 1, no refund. Owner gets payment. If it's 2, no payment. Owner has to refund. Situation #3 is not clearly accounted for in the current contract, which leaves it to interpretation and arguing over if it's 1 or 2.

I've been thinking a lot of the contract as well. Beyond the contract, this will set precedence to how the brokers operate. A rather simple inventory change would alleviate the risk here. If they have a good enough database of UY for people; the brokers can simply make sure reservations are not approaching UY. Meaning, if Davids has a renter for May; they can make an internal process change to avoid using a June UY to fulfill that reservation. Instead build it in so that any potential cancellation would allow the owner to bank and start with a minimum of October UY. Or, utilize one that is already past the banking point. Sure it would stress the inventory a little, but I'd imagine that would give a lot of peace of mind to owners and renters of not having to worry about the fight (as much) over contract language. I'd imagine owners would complain a lot less about "non-refundable" if their points were able to be fully usable/bankable still.

 

[tallguy001]

As long as resorts are closed - A contract is invalid if there is no consideration. If the resort is closed, there is no consideration given to the renter. Therefore the entire contract is void. Specific terms of the contract are irrelevant if the contract is void. A situation clearly never thought out by David and his attorneys (to be fair, we are in unchartered territory here). The question here is who will be on the hook for paying the renters back. My understanding is that renters pay David (and the other companies) directly. Therefore, any credit card chargebacks will be against David. I doubt they have enough in reserve to pay the impacted renters back. David will rightfully try and obtain money back from the owners, but who knows how that will go.

Of course many travelers are going to want to cancel later dates, when closures have not been announced. This is where contract language is crucial.

 

[McCrae]

Because you have a contract with Davids - the broker to find and facilitate a rental. But you also have a rental agreement (sent to you upon reservation confirmation, check your email. Subject: rental agreement) between you and the renter. It goes...

This electronic agreement is made on __________ by and between _______ ('Renter') and ___________ (together 'Member') by David Mullett ('Intermediary').

Think of it this way. You hire a real estate agent to sell your house. You even sign a contract. But the contract on the house isn’t between you and your agent, it’s between you and the buyer. The agent/broker is just a facilitator and that’s all the first contract is for

It‘s not as straight forward as that, complicated by the no refunds and no changes clauses. Whilst I will do what I can to help the renter I have because I feel it’s the right thing to do, I am not obligated to.

 

[McCrae]

The contract isn't as cut and dry as that. It mentions non-refundable multiple times, but it also makes provisions for availability of the reservation - which can't be available if the resort is closed.

Just to be clear as well, there are different types of "cancellation" which may be adding to the confusion.

1) Renter initiated cancellation. (ie, change in circumstance, no longer wants to or can't go)
2) Owner initiated cancellation. (ie, change of heart, no longer wants to rent)
3) Disney initiated cancellation. (ie, Resort Closure)

Most DVC contracts have accounted for 1 & 2. If it's 1, no refund. Owner gets payment. If it's 2, no payment. Owner has to refund. Situation #3 is not clearly accounted for in the current contract, which leaves it to interpretation and arguing over if it's 1 or 2.

I've been thinking a lot of the contract as well. Beyond the contract, this will set precedence to how the brokers operate. A rather simple inventory change would alleviate the risk here. If they have a good enough database of UY for people; the brokers can simply make sure reservations are not approaching UY. Meaning, if Davids has a renter for May; they can make an internal process change to avoid using a June UY to fulfill that reservation. Instead build it in so that any potential cancellation would allow the owner to bank and start with a minimum of October UY. Or, utilize one that is already past the banking point. Sure it would stress the inventory a little, but I'd imagine that would give a lot of peace of mind to owners and renters of not having to worry about the fight (as much) over contract language. I'd imagine owners would complain a lot less about "non-refundable" if their points were able to be fully usable/bankable still.

Or people may decide to follow the advice and get insurance.

 

[Yinn]

Or people may decide to follow the advice and get insurance.

There’s a lot of people who followed the advice, got insurance and still aren’t covered.

 

[Sandisw]

It‘s not as straight forward as that, complicated by the no refunds and no changes clauses. Whilst I will do what I can to help the renter I have because I feel it’s the right thing to do, I am not obligated to.

Except the broker is going to be on the hook for a lot of it, for renters who pursue it I wonder if his business will survive

 

[McCrae]

Except the broker is going to be on the hook for a lot of it, for renters who pursue it I wonder if his business will survive

I hope it does, they provide a good service. I wonder how many will just accept the no cancellations clause and leave it at that.

 

[McCrae]

There’s a lot of people who followed the advice, got insurance and still aren’t covered.

Some basic insurance won’t cover all cancellation circumstances. More comprehensive policies are available.

 

[Sandisw]

I hope it does, they provide a good service. I wonder how many will just accept the no cancellations clause and leave it at that.

From what I am reading here and some other places, many renters are disputing through the CC because they dont believe no refunds applies when the resort is closed.

If I was a renter, I would be fighting it because the non refundable clause was there for the purpose of letting the renter know they were not allowed to cancel or change, I’m not sure I agree it should apply for resort closure,

And, it sounds like some CC companies agree if they are awarding the renters their money back.

 

[Yinn]

Some basic insurance won’t cover all cancellation circumstances. More comprehensive policies are available.

They’re called CFAR - Cancelled For Any Reason and Many of them will still have pandemic and epidemic exclusions.

 

[Disneyepcot]

Some basic insurance won’t cover all cancellation circumstances. More comprehensive policies are available.

Some keep bringing up insurance. Personally, I can have 5 persons in my BWV and I live only 6 hours away so we drive. There is no need for me to purchase insurance because I know "as long as a room is available it will be used." No matter if I end up in the hospital or have a death in the family I have friends that live in Florida that I can include on my reservation for the room and they will use it. The room will be checked into by me or a friend "if it is available". Unfortunately, my March 24 reservation was cancelled due to the resort being closed. Now if a future contract includes the phrase "there is no guarantee that you are getting a room if the resort closes", I certainly will not sign it.

ETA: Even if there is a hurricane, I have traveled to Florida a day early and stayed with friends until we can check into our resort.

 

[McCrae]

They’re called CFAR - Cancelled For Any Reason and Many of them will still have pandemic and epidemic exclusions.

This is a horrible period for everyone involved and providing everyone can show some flexibility a solution can be found.

 

[MIndy S]

I have a comprehensive travel insurance and I paid extra for CFAR coverage. However, this exclusion is included in the contract...

"failure of any tour operator, Common Carrier, person or agency to provide the bargained-for travel arrangements or to refund money due the Insured."

Therefore, my insurance will not cover this situation. If I cannot reschedule my June trip due to expiring points, I will be SOL. I fully intend on filing with the CC company if the broker refuses to refund.

 

[tallguy001]

Any renter who is unable to use a room due to resort closure should not lose a dime. It’s actually pretty simple. Order and pay $3,000 for a top of the line computer on Amazon. They can’t say we don’t have that model in stock so we are just going to keep your money. There is no need to parse the contract - there is no contract when it can’t be executed.

 

[Matty B13]

Some keep bringing up insurance. Personally, I can have 5 persons in my BWV and I live only 6 hours away so we drive. There is no need for me to purchase insurance because I know "as long as a room is available it will be used." No matter if I end up in the hospital or have a death in the family I have friends that live in Florida that I can include on my reservation for the room and they will use it. The room will be checked into by me or a friend "if it is available". Unfortunately, my March 24 reservation was cancelled due to the resort being closed. Now if a future contract includes the phrase "there is no guarantee that you are getting a room if the resort closes", I certainly will not sign it.

ETA: Even if there is a hurricane, I have traveled to Florida a day early and stayed with friends until we can check into our resort.

The other side of the coin is that most owners will not setup a reservation if they know a renter can claim a refund after they have tied up all their points for that reservation. It’s a real catch 22, I know when I rent out my points I will only do it with full payment up front and no refunds, period. But, I have during this mess and on another situation worked with renters and found a reservation that worked. If I could lose my points and the money I rented out, I would never do it, I’d just use them for myself.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Some keep bringing up insurance. Personally, I can have 5 persons in my BWV and I live only 6 hours away so we drive. There is no need for me to purchase insurance because I know "as long as a room is available it will be used." No matter if I end up in the hospital or have a death in the family I have friends that live in Florida that I can include on my reservation for the room and they will use it. The room will be checked into by me or a friend "if it is available". Unfortunately, my March 24 reservation was cancelled due to the resort being closed. Now if a future contract includes the phrase "there is no guarantee that you are getting a room if the resort closes", I certainly will not sign it.

ETA: Even if there is a hurricane, I have traveled to Florida a day early and stayed with friends until we can check into our resort.

IMO if traveling without an insurance you are taking an unknown risk and this is one of them.

Personally I have never traveled with insurance and I won’t going forward.

 

[heynowirv]

So here's my situation.I had renter's thru David's March 11-18.The resorts and parks were both open until 16 for parks and 20 for the resorts.On the 13th I called David's to find out if they checked in.On the 16 they (David's)finally got back to me and said they indeed hadn't but never bothered contact anyone.At that point I called MS and after 3 days of back and forth they were willing to give me back the points for the 16-18.
I understood why DVC did that and I wrote David's back asking them if the family had bought any insurance. Today I found out that no they hadn't .So I refunded the value of the 2 nights points and 500. because we are all in this together.I just wish they had contacted me right away so that I could've gotten all my points back. Hopefully they learned a lesson and I feel good about helping out.
I don't know if David's is on the hook for the balance of the funds or if it's just loss for the family.

 

[CarolynFH]

So here's my situation.I had renter's thru David's March 11-18.The resorts and parks were both open until 16 for parks and 20 for the resorts.On the 13th I called David's to find out if they checked in.On the 16 they (David's)finally got back to me and said they indeed hadn't but never bothered contact anyone.At that point I called MS and after 3 days of back and forth they were willing to give me back the points for the 16-18.
I understood why DVC did that and I wrote David's back asking them if the family had bought any insurance. Today I found out that no they hadn't .So I refunded the value of the 2 nights points and 500. because we are all in this together.I just wish they had contacted me right away so that I could've gotten all my points back. Hopefully they learned a lesson and I feel good about helping out.
I don't know if David's is on the hook for the balance of the funds or if it's just loss for the family.

I think you were exceedingly generous to the family as well as lucky with DVC. Under normal circumstances, failure to check in without notifying anyone would constitute canceling on the day of checkin, right? And under normal rules you would have forfeited all your points. Yes - we’re all in this together...but I don’t think that family feels the same, otherwise they would have notified David’s that they would not be checking in. Lucky them to have rented from you!

To be clear - it’s the fact that the family made no attempt to cancel that makes the difference to me.

 

[heynowirv]

I think you were exceedingly generous to the family as well as lucky with DVC. Under normal circumstances, failure to check in without notifying anyone would constitute canceling on the day of checkin, right? And under normal rules you would have forfeited all your points. Yes - we’re all in this together...but I don’t think that family feels the same, otherwise they would have notified David’s that they would not be checking in. Lucky them to have rented from you!

To be clear - it’s the fact that the family made no attempt to cancel that makes the difference to me.

--Under normal conditions I'd agree with you.No one know"s what was going thru their minds I do know they are a family of 4 with 2 children under 10.