Does anyone think this situation is unfair?

[golfgal]

If you literally can't read and can't process the written word, staring at the words twice as hard isn't going to help. You have to have a certain amount of ability to make it through college.

I need to know where you live. Some of my low-level students might have a chance of making it through college there!

We are talking about kids at a 6th grade reading level. Don't you teach high school??? I just can't believe that you don't know kids that have pushed beyond their disabilities and gone on to college.

 

[dimimi]

How'd he read the tests? How'd he write the papers? How does he complete all the written communication required of an executive?

I don't know anyone who had extensive help to get through college. A math tutor, maybe. A study group to prepare for a chemistry test. But someone to read ALL the textbooks?

A computer can read the textbooks now. It is part of the IDEA act. Our high school is not very large...about 1000 students. That is about 250 students a grade. We have a very high GPA school and they feel class rank is not fair. In other words, you could have a 3.5 and be ranked 150! Our school does not give out class rank to colleges, only GPA.

 

[kidzmom3]

Did you know that 75% of adult Americans read at a 7th-8th grade level?

21 million Americans can't read at all, 45 million are marginally illiterate and one-fifth of high school graduates can't read their diplomas.

46% of American adults cannot understand the label on their prescription medicine.

 

[MrsPete]

Where in any of that was reading comprehension proven? I see all over that listening comprehension was proven, maybe even writing, but not reading.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Yes, listening and reading are different skills. They're listed separately in our state course of study.

My students who can't read well don't tend to have writing skills either. Those two skill sets are so intertwined that it would be a rare individual indeed who'd be able to write well without reading well. On the other hand, spelling is somewhat separated -- I have had a number of students who read/write well, yet spelling eludes them. Certain skill sets do tend to cluster together.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Did you know that 75% of adult Americans read at a 7th-8th grade level?

21 million Americans can't read at all, 45 million are marginally illiterate and one-fifth of high school graduates can't read their diplomas.

46% of American adults cannot understand the label on their prescription medicine.

I accept the numbers, but am grateful that I grew up in a family that valued education.

BTW, reading is tied to intellect for some. My son taught himself to read before his 4th birthday. Yeah, taught himself. He was reading at college level by the 3rd grade...

 

[KirstenB]

My husband has an engineering degree. Most of his upper-level courses were math-mechanical related, but he still had to make it through the basic coursework (English 101, Psych 101, etc.) and that included the writing intensive courses, which are requirements. In particular, there was one course that all engineers are required to take in their first semester; it required a major paper every single week and was largely regarded as a "weeder course" to get rid of those students who don't belong in the engineering program. How'd they make it past those classes?

I can't speak for FIL, as I wasn't there. But dh and I attended the same university. He did have to take a freshman English class (everyone had to take it). By the time we started college, everyone had to take a writing exam, upon acceptance.

His writing exam was sufficiently bad to immediately qualify him for help at the Writing Center. He was exempt from being graded on spelling, and having timed tests. They tutored him on strategies to get around his disability. He did pass the English class, and really had very few general classes. I remember Japanese was one he took, and a history class.

I'm not sure he took any general ed classes after our freshman year. It's been over 20 years, but back then, if you were accepted into the school of engineering, you got your requirements out of the way quickly, to free you up for exciting classes, like Advanced Calculus, Emag, Physics, and the like.

 

[MrsPete]

We are talking about kids at a 6th grade reading level. Don't you teach high school??? I just can't believe that you don't know kids that have pushed beyond their disabilities and gone on to college.

Yes, I do. But I can't say that those students were reading at a 6th grade level. That's pretty low. And those students who've "pushed beyond" tend to attend community colleges or non-competative universities, which is a long way from the master's degree discussion.

Did you know that 75% of adult Americans read at a 7th-8th grade level?

I heard recently in a workshop that it's 10th grade. Still, that means the 6th grade reader is at the bottom of his class.

And no matter which statistic we accept, that doesn't mean this average person is going to college. I heard somewhere -- and it's been a while ago -- that 20% of Americans have a bachelor's degree and 25% claim to have a bachelor's degree.

 

[MrsPete]

I can't speak for FIL, as I wasn't there. But dh and I attended the same university. He did have to take a freshman English class (everyone had to take it). By the time we started college, everyone had to take a writing exam, upon acceptance.

His writing exam was sufficiently bad to immediately qualify him for help at the Writing Center. He was exempt from being graded on spelling, and having timed tests. They tutored him on strategies to get around his disability. He did pass the English class, and really had very few general classes. I remember Japanese was one he took, and a history class.

I'm not sure he took any general ed classes after our freshman year. It's been over 20 years, but back then, if you were accepted into the school of engineering, you got your requirements out of the way quickly, to free you up for exciting classes, like Advanced Calculus, Emag, Physics, and the like.

They EXEMPTED HIM from college requirements? Wow, did I ever work harder than I needed for my two degrees!

 

[golfgal]

Where in any of that was reading comprehension proven? I see all over that listening comprehension was proven, maybe even writing, but not reading. Reading comprehension is a very basic part of college curriculum.

I couldn't imagine having to read everything to my boss. I wouldn't even attempt to read everything to a subordinate.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

No one has to read him anything-he just takes longer then most to get it done.

I accept the numbers, but am grateful that I grew up in a family that valued education.

BTW, reading is tied to intellect for some. My son taught himself to read before his 4th birthday. Yeah, taught himself. He was reading at college level by the 3rd grade...

WOW--learning disabilities have NOTHING to do with valuing education.

I was reading by age 4 as well and my test scores were off the charts--still can't spell worth a darn and still use my fingers to add--does that mean I don't value education-never mind that my Dad is a card carrying member of MENSA, has a masters degree in Chemistry and my mom was a highly trained ICU nurse, also with a masters degree-but we don't value education in our family I guess .

 

[kidzmom3]

I accept the numbers, but am grateful that I grew up in a family that valued education.

BTW, reading is tied to intellect for some. My son taught himself to read before his 4th birthday. Yeah, taught himself. He was reading at college level by the 3rd grade...

But don't you see. This girls family most likely values education also. Or she wouldn't be trying so hard and succeeding at her classes.

What is intelligence? Is it the ability to do well in school? Is it the ability to read well and spell correctly? Or are the following people intelligent? The physician who smokes three packets of cigarettes a day? The Nobel Prize winner whose marriage and personal life are in ruins? The corporate executive who has ingeniously worked his way to the top and also earned a heart attack for his efforts?

The question of what intelligence really is has been under debate for a long time. Maybe your child is exceptional. Maybe the girl with the learning disability but the drive to do well in school, graduate and maybe be recognized for achieving something very difficult (for her) is also exceptional.

 

[golfgal]

Yes, I do. But I can't say that those students were reading at a 6th grade level. That's pretty low. And those students who've "pushed beyond" tend to attend community colleges or non-competative universities, which is a long way from the master's degree discussion. I heard recently in a workshop that it's 10th grade. Still, that means the 6th grade reader is at the bottom of his class.

And no matter which statistic we accept, that doesn't mean this average person is going to college. I heard somewhere -- and it's been a while ago -- that 20% of Americans have a bachelor's degree and 25% claim to have a bachelor's degree.

Well, I suppose in some areas of the country that may be true-especially when you factor in the over 60 year olds, but I would say that the number for people UNDER 60 is much higher--at least around here. All of our friends have at least a Bachelor's degree.

They EXEMPTED HIM from college requirements? Wow, did I ever work harder than I needed for my two degrees!

WOW, didn't you test out of any of your required classes in college??? We were able to take tests to test out of basic English, Math and other subjects. Heck, DH tested out of 3 years of college Spanish because his high school Spanish teacher was so good. He only had to take 4 Spanish classes to get a Bachelor's in Spanish. Most people I know tested out of basic English and math requirements in college.

 

[FireDancer]

No one has to read him anything-he just takes longer then most to get it done.

Oh, apparently I misinterpreted the bolded statements made below:

We have a good friend that has a master's degree and his wife had to read his text books to him--he was fully capable of understanding what was read to him, he was fully capable of taking the tests, writing the papers, etc. but reading the words in a book and his brain processing them just didn't work. He is a high level executive with a major corporation.

WOW, didn't you test out of any of your required classes in college??? We were able to take tests to test out of basic English, Math and other subjects. Heck, DH tested out of 3 years of college Spanish because his high school Spanish teacher was so good. He only had to take 4 Spanish classes to get a Bachelor's in Spanish. Most people I know tested out of basic English and math requirements in college.

Yes, you test out of classes by excelling in the subject. Not by bombing the test so badly that you have to have special accommodations made.

 

[golfgal]

Oh, apparently I misinterpreted the bolded statements made below:

No one reads anything to him a WORK.

 

[JessicaR]

Oops sorry wrong thread!

 

[KirstenB]

They EXEMPTED HIM from college requirements? Wow, did I ever work harder than I needed for my two degrees!

No, I believe under the ADA laws, they provided him with appropriate support for his dyslexia. He was exempt from being graded on spelling, and completing the exam in a given time. I don't believe I said anywhere, that he was exempt from any classes, whatsoever.

I'm a really decent speller, but I'd be the first to say, it in no way involves any higher intelligence. Basically, they took the pressure off of dh. By taking away the pressure, he demonstrated he could construct a rational essay. There's nothing wrong with his reasoning ability. He just can't spell for beans. I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

But don't you see. This girls family most likely values education also...

That comment was more about the illiteracy stats. I agree with everyone that this girl's achievements are real - I just don't agree that they = those who meet all graduating requirements.

We can congratulate someone for a thing without equating it to someone else's achievements. We can offer different types of diplomas. Can't we?

 

[spaceacewannabe]

When I was in high school there was a weight added to the grade for ranking. An A earned in a level 1 class (special ed) was not worth as much as an A earned in a level 2 class (normal) which in turn was not worth as much as an A earned in a level 3 class (honors).

In that situation someone taking some level 3 classes and earning a 3.5 would be ranked higher than a student taking all level 2 classes and earning a 3.5. If anyone took any level 1 classes and had a 3.5 they would be ranked 3rd of the 3.

It astounds me that this method of weighting hasn't been legally challenged. I know when my sister worked in university admissions, they threw out the GPAs from schools that used those weighting methods and recalculated on their own.

The student isn't an NHS member. My cousin told me that NHS rules vary from chapter to chapter. The chapter that the school is under doesn't induct special ed students. My cousin reviewed a current class ranking with the school's guidance counselor a few days ago. She said that in the top 25 the special ed is ranked 11th. Most of the students in the top 25 are NHS members and my cousin has said that even a few students who aren't in NHS are upset about the girl's ranking. The issue is more with class rankings.

I hope that was just an omitted word

I can really see both sides of the issue but since there is only one special ed student it could get really, really, really ugly for the school legally. I would not sign my name on ANYTHING related to his issue because it will only come back to bite you in the rear.

I agree. In my district, a teacher would probably be fired for signing or involving themselves, if for no other reason than the potential legal ramifications for the district.

I can also see were they are upset due to girl's reading level. I think a lot of it has to do with class rank and the fact the girl never passed the state competency exam. Like I mentioned in a previous post one reason students are upset is because of certain scholarships that awarded on class rankings and percentages.

The girl's reading level is none of their business. As others have pointed out, students with text-centered disabilities aren't going to score well on tests. Test anxiety will also often produce (often inaccurately) low scores.

I cannot believe people would even...really...I don't even know what to say without getting points.

I was thinking that, too.

Not to mention that isn't how it works in the real world and school is supposed to be preparing someone for the real world. I'd love to go into a board meeting and let them know I tried really hard to not allow a data breach but one happened. They would be unimpressed with my effort and look at my lack of result and I don't blame them, life is about results. Get them or someone else will.

I would venture a guess that you selected your career based on what you are good at. I would venture a guess that this young lady could also put together an effective presentation in an area of her interest and skill.

In the adult, work world, we are specialized. We don't expect every adult to be able to do every thing well.

I have 2 kids that were special ed students. Part of their learning disability was that they had problem with tests. My DS had scores that ranged from village idiot to genius depending on how he played fill in the blanks. He had a processing disorder that made taking tests extremely difficult.
This girl is telling her ranking, so what. I would think it was in response to everyone else sharing their ranks. If I were the parent of this child in question I would be talking to a lawyer. She has fulfulled the requirements for her district therefore she deserves the honors. If these parents do not like the system they need to address that but not at the expense of this student. It is a shame that as a society in general we have losy any sense of compassion for our fellow human beings. IMHO anyway.

Well said! I particularly enjoyed the bolded part---and it's so true for such a range of kids. I am not completely against testing, but to assume that it's accurate for every kid is not realistic. We are dealing with human beings, not little robots!

I love this kind of obtuse post...

It really isn't obtuse if you think of special education as what it is---providing students with a disability with the accommodations they need to be successful. Eye glasses are actually an exquisitely accurate analogy.

FIL has a master's in Electrical Engineering. Both he and my dh are very dyslexic, and neither reads well. Fortunately for them, that discipline required few English classes.

Exactly---adults specialize, kids don't get to.

To be fair, we use a text to speech program for our sight impaired employees for email and document creation, but those employees could never hold executive positions, and they can all read in one way or another. There is too much that cannot be processed by those programs, like financial analysis...

A computer can read the textbooks now. It is part of the IDEA act. Our high school is not very large...about 1000 students. That is about 250 students a grade. We have a very high GPA school and they feel class rank is not fair. In other words, you could have a 3.5 and be ranked 150! Our school does not give out class rank to colleges, only GPA.

LOVE this! Best idea ever. I am going to share it with my principal. If we are clear with kids about what they need to do, everyone should have a shot at a 4.0. It doesn't need to be all about rankings.

I am really saddened by some of the insensitivity shown here. I think we all accept that not everyone looks the same, nor should they---not everyone's brain works the same, either, nor should it.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...I am really saddened by some of the insensitivity shown here. I think we all accept that not everyone looks the same, nor should they---not everyone's brain works the same, either, nor should it.

And not everyone earns the same diploma, nor should they...

 

[jrmasm]

It astounds me that this method of weighting hasn't been legally challenged. I know when my sister worked in university admissions, they threw out the GPAs from schools that used those weighting methods and recalculated on their own.

Why to both statements?

 

[asta]

Why to both statements?

Don't want to get in the middle of the actual discussion here but can address the question about why most universities throw out GPAs sent by high schools and calculate their own. It is an effort on their part to make sense of the many different ways that high schools weight grades to arrive at a GPA. Some schools seem to be in a race to have more and more ways for their students to have higher GPAs than other schools. A student from a school that offers more 5.0 opportunities (some schools even go to the ridculous point of offering 10.0 to 14.0 weights) can not be fairly compared to a brilliant student at a school that does not offer classes with these kind of weights. Recalculating helps take all of this grade escalation nonsense out of the equation.

Most schools also recalculate to remove non-academic courses from a students GPA. Grades in courses like art and music are removed from the GPA. Students who pursue college courses in these areas are normally evaluated by an audition or portfolio of their work. The grades in these courses are not used in evaluating a GPA.