Does anyone think this situation is unfair?

[MrsPete]

So now the mentally disabled can't go to high school? wow.

public education isn't a privilege anymore, sorry.

In all fairness, the Americans with Disabilities Act requires that all students receive an education in the "least restrictive" environment.

That means that IF the student can manage mainstream classes, they should be in them.
IF the student can handle 3 mainstream classes and 1 self-contained class, that option should be used.
IF the student can manage only 1 mainstream class and needs to spend most of the day in a self-contained class, then that's what the student gets.
And a student should only be in a self-contained class all day long IF the student cannot handle other options.

NONE of that guarantees that the student will reach high school. In reality, students who are literally incapable of ever learning to read DO end up in high school, but they are in self-contained classes and are not working towards academic diplomas.

 

[golfgal]

I don't know anyone with a master's degree who can't read well. Not a single one. Earning a master's degree requires a high level of academic ability, and reading is the most basic of those skills.

Yes, reading is a basic ability skill but for some people they just CAN'T do it, should they be denied the ability to move ahead in the world when there are easy accommodations that allow them to succeed?? There are computer programs out there that will read books to you-pretty easy way to get around a major learning disability. Heck, you don't even need a disability to get the programs, you could use it too--or even books on tape that are widely available (well probably CD's now).

News flash, anyone that has a learning disability is no longer able to go to high school, college or beyond.

 

[teacherforhi]

I don't know where in NC you are, but I wanted to point out a few things:

#1--The OCS students absolutely do have to pass End of Course tests to graduate from high school. It isn't the exact same test as the students in regular classes take, but is based on the Standard Course of Study for the OCS classes. If they don't pass the test, they don't get the credit for the course, the same as any regular ed student.

#2--We have an OCS program in every high school (all 6 of them). Maybe my county just has an abnormal amount of OCS students. I'll be sending five students to the high school next year from my middle school alone.

#3--At least here, the OCS classes are in no way considered self-contained. Each high school has at least 2 teachers and the two largest have four. The students change classes and are still required to take PE, an arts class, and a certain number of electives. All of these are in the regular classes with accomodations made.

Here's a detail that some of you are missing: In my state, we offer several DIFFERENT high school diplomas.

The majority of our graduates earn a plain old academic diploma.
Some of them have followed a college prep pathway, and they're ready to head into a four-year college. Others have followed a military prep diploma, others have followed a tech-prep diploma. Along with their parents, students CHOOSE the pathway they're going to follow, and they can change it during their four years in high school. Some students begin in a college-prep pathway, yet because they fail certain classes, they end up dropping down to a lower pathway.

Some of our students receive an NC Scholar seal on their diplomas, indicating that they've followed a more rigorous course of study, and they've earned a higher GPA over their high school years.

Exceptional Children (some states still use the term Special Education) in a self-contained classroom earn an Occupational Diploma. They are not held to the same requirements as their college-bound classmates. They do not take end-of-course tests or competency tests along the way. They are required to complete a rather large number of work hours (at "jobs" like cleaning a local business, folding clothes for Goodwill, etc.). Their diploma requirements are set up for their ability level and are designed to help them learn skills that will help them in jobs that they can manage as adults. And -- in the end -- they receive a diploma, but it is NOT THE SAME DIPLOMA that the afore-mentioned grade-grubbers will receive. People don't realize this because we award so few of these diplomas. Last year my school didn't award a single one; this year I think we'll award two.

Then there's the Certificate of Completion, which means you were there but didn't achieve anything at all.

Note:
I think we're all talking about self-contained Exceptional Children. That is, the ones who obviously are different from their classmates, who obviously need extra help, and who spend their whole day in a classroom with other students like themselves. It's important to note that these students are a small minority of our Exceptional Children. In my school of 1700, we have 25-30 self-contained students; only two of the seven high schools in my county have self-contained classrooms.

The majority of our Exceptional Children are "mainstreamed" all day long in regular classrooms, and they are meeting the same requirements as the rest of the student body -- often they have one pull-out class each day for extra help, sometimes they receive extra help from the teacher in small ways, and sometimes they don't require any help whatsoever.

Also, these oh-so-exclusive NHS students might like to remember that if they're taking honors /AP classes, THEY TOO are labeled Exceptional Children. Exceptional can mean either high or low. It can mean a student with average intelligence who is hearing-impaired. A fairly large number of our students are labeled Exceptional.

As to the situation in question . . .

In real life, I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. There's no winning this one because of the "special snowflake" or "but we're the beautiful people" syndrome, the ones who can ONLY see how this affects their own child.

In the anonimity of the internet, understanding that GPA and class rank are two different concepts, I'd suggest that a two-fold strategy would be fair:

1. Any student who earns a certain GPA should be allowed to graduate with honors, regardless of the classes they take. Those students deserve to wear an honors cord over their cap/gown and be recognized in the graduation program. This doesn't affect other students in any way. Well, it doesn't affect other students in any way other than bruised feelings, which the grade-grubbers should just get over -- someone else's success does not equate to your lack of success, and many of these "but what about me?" students need to toughen up.

2. Students who are not working towards academic diplomas should not be ranked along with their class -- and this really means the students in the self-contained classes. They aren't completing the same requirements, and their work hours are not equivalent to Chemistry class, so it doesn't make sense to compare them to their classmates in this way. They are not going to compete for scholarships and college applications, so class rank is really not important to them.

 

[teacherforhi]

In all fairness, the Americans with Disabilities Act requires that all students receive an education in the "least restrictive" environment.

That means that IF the student can manage mainstream classes, they should be in them.
IF the student can handle 3 mainstream classes and 1 self-contained class, that option should be used.
IF the student can manage only 1 mainstream class and needs to spend most of the day in a self-contained class, then that's what the student gets.
And a student should only be in a self-contained class all day long IF the student cannot handle other options.

NONE of that guarantees that the student will reach high school. In reality, students who are literally incapable of ever learning to read DO end up in high school, but they are in self-contained classes and are not working towards academic diplomas.

Actually, it does guarantee that they will reach high school. You would have a hard time arguing that the least restrictive environment for a 16-year-old would be in a first grade classroom because of their reading ability. Granted, that student wouldn't be in a regular ed classroom in the high school, but they definitely would be in high school.

 

[MrsPete]

Yes, reading is a basic ability skill but for some people they just CAN'T do it, should they be denied the ability to move ahead in the world when there are easy accommodations that allow them to succeed?? There are computer programs out there that will read books to you-pretty easy way to get around a major learning disability. Heck, you don't even need a disability to get the programs, you could use it too--or even books on tape that are widely available (well probably CD's now).

News flash, anyone that has a learning disability is no longer able to go to high school, college or beyond.

Save the sarcasm and the twisting of words. The vast majority of people with a learning disability CAN READ -- even if their LD deals with the written word, it takes them more effort, but they can learn to read. And I don't a single person who literally can't read who has a master's degree.

 

[golfgal]

Hence

I never said they should be included in the rankings.

 

[MrsPete]

I don't know where in NC you are, but I wanted to point out a few things:

#1--The OCS students absolutely do have to pass End of Course tests to graduate from high school. It isn't the exact same test as the students in regular classes take, but is based on the Standard Course of Study for the OCS classes. If they don't pass the test, they don't get the credit for the course, the same as any regular ed student. Yes, but they aren't the same tests that're taken by the majority of the students. They're not working toward the same diploma, so this isn't a problem.

#2--We have an OCS program in every high school (all 6 of them). Maybe my county just has an abnormal amount of OCS students. I'll be sending five students to the high school next year from my middle school alone. You do have many more than we do.

#3--At least here, the OCS classes are in no way considered self-contained. Each high school has at least 2 teachers and the two largest have four. The students change classes and are still required to take PE, an arts class, and a certain number of electives. All of these are in the regular classes with accomodations made. Some of our students stay in their self-contained classrooms all day long. Some of our students go out of the self-contained classroom JUST for one class, perhaps art or PE.

 

[KirstenB]

I don't know anyone with a master's degree who can't read well. Not a single one. Earning a master's degree requires a high level of academic ability, and reading is the most basic of those skills.

FIL has a master's in Electrical Engineering. Both he and my dh are very dyslexic, and neither reads well. Fortunately for them, that discipline required few English classes.

 

[FireDancer]

Yes, reading is a basic ability skill but for some people they just CAN'T do it, should they be denied the ability to move ahead in the world when there are easy accommodations that allow them to succeed?? There are computer programs out there that will read books to you-pretty easy way to get around a major learning disability. Heck, you don't even need a disability to get the programs, you could use it too--or even books on tape that are widely available (well probably CD's now).

News flash, anyone that has a learning disability is no longer able to go to high school, college or beyond.

Part of the curriculum is reading comprehension. Listening to books on CD or the computer is not reading comprehension, it is listening comprehension. While both are important but both are still necessary. They can use those methods in classes that aren't testing reading. My degree is in business and computers and I still had comp and lit classes in college. If I didn't pass I wouldn't have graduated, just like all my other classes.

Another very important part of any college curriculum is composition. If someone can't read at a college level will they be able to compose a paper that is worth of a passing grade in college? Maybe they can, maybe they can't, I have no idea. I imagine there are those who can not.

I believe that there has to be a minimum for someone to receive a standard diploma and especially a degree. This should include whatever the minimum science proficiency is, what ever the minimum math proficiency is, and whatever the minimum reading proficiency is. As some PPs have stated, you can get a different diploma from the schools you have a right to attend but college is not a right. It is something that you have to show a minimum level of knowledge to even attend, or at least you should. The selectivity of college and the inability for everyone to get a degree is part of what makes a degree valuable.

This of course is just my opinion.

 

[MrsPete]

Did you READ my posts???

Yeah. You said that people who can't really read can go earn to earn master's degrees:

I know several people that have learning disabilities that can't read past a 6th grade level that are professional people with masters degrees, it doesn't make them less intelligent.

I have never seen this myself. A high school diploma, yes, they'd probably manage that. But not a master's degree.

 

[golfgal]

Part of the curriculum is reading comprehension. Listening to books on CD or the computer is not reading comprehension, it is listening comprehension. While both are important both are still necessary.

Another very important part of any college curriculum is composition. If someone can't read at a college level will they be able to compose a paper that is worth of a passing grade in college? Maybe they can, maybe they can't, I have no idea. I imagine there are those who can not.

I believe that there has to be a minimum for someone to receive a standard diploma and especially a degree. This should include whatever the minimum science proficiency is, what ever the minimum math proficiency is, and whatever the minimum reading proficiency is. As some PPs have stated, you can get a different diploma from the schools you have a right to attend but college is not a right. It is something that you have to show a minimum level of knowledge to even attend, or at least you should. The selectivity of college and the inability for everyone to get a degree is part of what makes a degree valuable.

This or course is just my opinion.

Obviously you have never been around kids with learning disabilities. DS17 has a very good friend that, on his own, reads at about a 1st grade level, however, with the computer program that reads his books to him his comprehension scores are off the charts. He is a genius at math and will graduate with honors from high school as he takes honors courses with the reading accommodation. It is completely possible for someone to have a low reading ability and high comprehension skills--just like the opposite is true.

We have a good friend that has a master's degree and his wife had to read his text books to him--he was fully capable of understanding what was read to him, he was fully capable of taking the tests, writing the papers, etc. but reading the words in a book and his brain processing them just didn't work. He is a high level executive with a major corporation.

Why is this so hard to understand???

 

[golfgal]

Yeah. You said that people who can't really read can go earn to earn master's degrees:
I have never seen this myself. A high school diploma, yes, they'd probably manage that. But not a master's degree.

So because you haven't seen this means it doesn't happen??? Seriously? So anyone that has a LD and can't read has no hope for getting beyond a high school diploma in your world, right? Why is it then that every college has IEP type set ups for students and LD assistance?

 

[MrsPete]

FIL has a master's in Electrical Engineering. Both he and my dh are very dyslexic, and neither reads well. Fortunately for them, that discipline required few English classes.

My husband has an engineering degree. Most of his upper-level courses were math-mechanical related, but he still had to make it through the basic coursework (English 101, Psych 101, etc.) and that included the writing intensive courses, which are requirements. In particular, there was one course that all engineers are required to take in their first semester; it required a major paper every single week and was largely regarded as a "weeder course" to get rid of those students who don't belong in the engineering program. How'd they make it past those classes?

 

[golfgal]

My husband has an engineering degree. Most of his upper-level courses were math-mechanical related, but he still had to make it through the basic coursework (English 101, Psych 101, etc.) and that included the writing intensive courses, which are requirements. In particular, there was one course that all engineers are required to take in their first semester; it required a major paper every single week and was largely regarded as a "weeder course" to get rid of those students who don't belong in the engineering program. How'd they make it past those classes?

They had to work twice as hard as the other students???

 

[MrsPete]

Obviously you have never been around kids with learning disabilities. DS17 has a very good friend that, on his own, reads at about a 1st grade level, however, with the computer program that reads his books to him his comprehension scores are off the charts. He is a genius at math and will graduate with honors from high school as he takes honors courses with the reading accommodation. It is completely possible for someone to have a low reading ability and high comprehension skills--just like the opposite is true.

We have a good friend that has a master's degree and his wife had to read his text books to him--he was fully capable of understanding what was read to him, he was fully capable of taking the tests, writing the papers, etc. but reading the words in a book and his brain processing them just didn't work. He is a high level executive with a major corporation.

Why is this so hard to understand???

How'd he read the tests? How'd he write the papers? How does he complete all the written communication required of an executive?

I don't know anyone who had extensive help to get through college. A math tutor, maybe. A study group to prepare for a chemistry test. But someone to read ALL the textbooks?

 

[MrsPete]

So because you haven't seen this means it doesn't happen??? Seriously? So anyone that has a LD and can't read has no hope for getting beyond a high school diploma in your world, right? Why is it then that every college has IEP type set ups for students and LD assistance?

Help, yes. Not complete avoidance of reading.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

How'd he read the tests? How'd he write the papers? How does he complete all the written communication required of an executive?

At the risk of sounding blunt, I'd have to see it to believe it...

 

[MrsPete]

They had to work twice as hard as the other students???

If you literally can't read and can't process the written word, staring at the words twice as hard isn't going to help. You have to have a certain amount of ability to make it through college.

I need to know where you live. Some of my low-level students might have a chance of making it through college there!

 

[FireDancer]

Obviously you have never been around kids with learning disabilities. DS17 has a very good friend that, on his own, reads at about a 1st grade level, however, with the computer program that reads his books to him his comprehension scores are off the charts. He is a genius at math and will graduate with honors from high school as he takes honors courses with the reading accommodation. It is completely possible for someone to have a low reading ability and high comprehension skills--just like the opposite is true.

We have a good friend that has a master's degree and his wife had to read his text books to him--he was fully capable of understanding what was read to him, he was fully capable of taking the tests, writing the papers, etc. but reading the words in a book and his brain processing them just didn't work. He is a high level executive with a major corporation.

Why is this so hard to understand???

Where in any of that was reading comprehension proven? I see all over that listening comprehension was proven, maybe even writing, but not reading. Reading comprehension is a very basic part of college curriculum.

I couldn't imagine having to read everything to my boss. I wouldn't even attempt to read everything to a subordinate.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

If you literally can't read and can't process the written word, staring at the words twice as hard isn't going to help. You have to have a certain amount of ability to make it through college.

To be fair, we use a text to speech program for our sight impaired employees for email and document creation, but those employees could never hold executive positions, and they can all read in one way or another. There is too much that cannot be processed by those programs, like financial analysis...