Does anyone think that maybe Michael Jackson was murdered?

That particular drug, but I was also referring to the fact that it has been reported that MJ was addicted to pain killers for years. In fact he went into rehab once for it already (canceled a tour or part of a tour or something)

Since the Porpofol is all the things you said, IMHO it makes it even more the responsibility of the medical professional.


Someone said something about people taking responsibility for their own actions and I agree to a point. But once someone is an addict to pain killers they really do believe themselves to be in pain. They truly need the medication. The drs attending to this person should not be continuing to give them those medications. I mean for heaven sakes, I have seen them hold back from giving someone who is dying pain meds. for fear of addiction!!??!! But we don't hold a md responsible when he chooses to continue giving them to an otherwise healthy person?

TOTALLY AGREE!
My husbands grandmother is 95 years old, in a rest home, in a bed and in pain... but they wont give her too much pain meds for fear of addiction? THAT IS INSANE and then the flip side, a perfect example, MJ.
 
Maybe he self-administered the injection. :confused3

Even if he did it himself whoever wrote that perscription should at least lose their licence. Nobody should be using that drug without an anesthesiologist present. Can you imagine going under general without being monitored? That's what he was doing at home. I still place most of the blame on Michael and I'm sure he offered them a ton of money to get his hands on all the wildly inapropriate drugs, but doctors should not be bribable for perscriptions.
 
Even if he did it himself whoever wrote that perscription should at least lose their licence. I'm sure he offered them a ton of money to get his hands on all the wildly inapropriate drugs, but doctors should NOT be bribable for perscriptions.

Ooops.;)
 
Maybe he self-administered the injection. :confused3
Self administering would be even worse (if that's possible) than a medical professional administering it. It is usually given and monitored by an anesthesiologist.

The problem is that that medication should not be used outside of a setting where it's use is regulated (ie standardized protocols) and the "patient" is professionally and electronically monitored. There's just no getting around that with this drug.

Respiratory arrest (ie severe compromise or cessation of breathing) is always a possiblity with medications like diprivan. Therefore, besides continuous observation and things like heart and oxygen saturation monitoring, there should be Advanced Cardiac Life Support medications and equipment on standby with people there - ideally a team - who are certified to perform ACLS.

Even in the absence of any other drugs, this one, if given, was given improperly and that's a big problem for whoever gave it. Remember, if the story holds true, MJ wanted it for "sleep", which is just insane.
 

TOTALLY AGREE!
My husbands grandmother is 95 years old, in a rest home, in a bed and in pain... but they wont give her too much pain meds for fear of addiction? THAT IS INSANE and then the flip side, a perfect example, MJ.

Isn't it crazy? There are people I know that are able to get pain killers every time their big toe hurts and yet the person who truly needs it can't have it. I know of two particular people that are addicted and continue to get pain killers from the hospital and dr. prescriptions. My own son was offered pain killers for a stomach virus at the ER, he just laughed at them.
 
I disagree. While we don't know what anyone did and didn't do to help him, the ultimate responsibility for his problems was his.

I agree with this...

If someone gave him this drug, yes, they broke the law, but he is ultimately responsible... and paid the highest price
 
TOTALLY AGREE!
My husbands grandmother is 95 years old, in a rest home, in a bed and in pain... but they wont give her too much pain meds for fear of addiction? THAT IS INSANE and then the flip side, a perfect example, MJ.
Not doubting that that's what you were told, but really, it is a challenge to find effective pain control in the elderly because many pain medications contribute to mental status changes, which puts them at higher risk for things like falls, aspiration, confusion, etc. Most people would probably agree that at 95, worrying about addiction isn't really a huge concern. It's the other risks that are, though. However, everyone does have a right to have their pain managed effectively.
 
....the "patient" is professionally and electronically monitored. There's just no getting around that with this drug.

Respiratory arrest (ie severe compromise or cessation of breathing) is always a possiblity with medications like diprivan. Therefore, besides continuous observation and things like heart and oxygen saturation monitoring, there should be Advanced Cardiac Life Support medications and equipment on standby with people there - ideally a team - who are certified to perform ACLS......
Hi Linda. :wave2:

When I had heart rhythm problems a couple months back, and they did a cardio-version on me, they gave me a drug, Brevital, which sounds similar to the Diprivan, though very short half life (thus its name), to do the procedure. And beside the cardiologist there, there were also two cardio RN's, and a respiratory specialist present, plus they had a 'crash cart' brought up, just outside the door to my room, close by, seconds away, if needed. And I was hoked up to lots of wires, tubes, monitors.

Too bad if something like this, regardless how it was administered, took his lfe. So senseless.
 
I dont know for sure, but I have always heard that being "under" isnt the same as "getting sleep" anyway. Is that right? If so IMO that makes the doctor even more of a money grabbing nit wit.
I have had insomnia. It isnt good. Desperation is a word that comes to mind... Sleep becomes the most important thing in the world when you cant get any. And when you are serioulsy not getting sleep, you are not thinking right anymore.
 
Even if he did it himself whoever wrote that perscription should at least lose their licence. Nobody should be using that drug without an anesthesiologist present. Can you imagine going under general without being monitored? That's what he was doing at home. I still place most of the blame on Michael and I'm sure he offered them a ton of money to get his hands on all the wildly inapropriate drugs, but doctors should not be bribable for perscriptions.

Oh, I agree with you.
 
That particular drug, but I was also referring to the fact that it has been reported that MJ was addicted to pain killers for years. In fact he went into rehab once for it already (canceled a tour or part of a tour or something)

Since the Porpofol is all the things you said, IMHO it makes it even more the responsibility of the medical professional.


Someone said something about people taking responsibility for their own actions and I agree to a point. But once someone is an addict to pain killers they really do believe themselves to be in pain. They truly need the medication. The drs attending to this person should not be continuing to give them those medications. I mean for heaven sakes, I have seen them hold back from giving someone who is dying pain meds. for fear of addiction!!??!! But we don't hold a md responsible when he chooses to continue giving them to an otherwise healthy person?

I think there needs to be a little less responsibility placed on the addict when the drugs are being prescribed by a physician -- we trust them to do what's best for our health. A good physician would have thrown MJ in the car and dropped him off at Dr. Drew's.

Self administering would be even worse (if that's possible) than a medical professional administering it. It is usually given and monitored by an anesthesiologist.

The problem is that that medication should not be used outside of a setting where it's use is regulated (ie standardized protocols) and the "patient" is professionally and electronically monitored. There's just no getting around that with this drug.

Respiratory arrest (ie severe compromise or cessation of breathing) is always a possiblity with medications like diprivan. Therefore, besides continuous observation and things like heart and oxygen saturation monitoring, there should be Advanced Cardiac Life Support medications and equipment on standby with people there - ideally a team - who are certified to perform ACLS.

Even in the absence of any other drugs, this one, if given, was given improperly and that's a big problem for whoever gave it. Remember, if the story holds true, MJ wanted it for "sleep", which is just insane.

Which is why we all worry about a loved one going through surgery -- anything can happen while somebody is under, and that's for a few hours. It's hard to imagine a Dr. doing that to somebody every night (according to what I saw on CNN the other night, that's how MJ did his last tour)

:laughing: I have actually thought about the similarities in MJ and Elvis's death and thought "you know, MJ is just strange enough to REALLY fake his death."

OMG! you're right. :scared1:

I agree with this...

If someone gave him this drug, yes, they broke the law, but he is ultimately responsible... and paid the highest price

No...he's just dead now. I would say his kids paid the highest price. :hug: And it's not as if the Dr. didn't know he had kids.

I dont know for sure, but I have always heard that being "under" isnt the same as "getting sleep" anyway. Is that right? If so IMO that makes the doctor even more of a money grabbing nit wit.
I have had insomnia. It isnt good. Desperation is a word that comes to mind... Sleep becomes the most important thing in the world when you cant get any. And when you are serioulsy not getting sleep, you are not thinking right anymore.

Yup, insomnia is (pardon the pun) a nightmare. I used to have it quite bad, but thankfully, I seem to have put that behind me. But I don't remember ever waking up from surgery and feeling more rested -- just felt like I had lost time. I just really don't see how it would be helpful, especially in the long run.
 
Intenionally? No..

Accidentally? Possibly..
 
It will be very interesting when the facts of the case emerge.

Diprivan risk well-known to doctors

By Alan Duke and Saeed Ahmed
CNN
LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- While authorities do not yet know what killed Michael Jackson, the possibility that anesthetics -- particularly the drug Diprivan -- might be involved continues to swell with each new revelation.

On Friday, The Associated Press quoted an unnamed law enforcement source saying investigators found Diprivan in Jackson's Holmby Hills home.

A nutritionist, Cherilyn Lee, said earlier in the week that Jackson pleaded for the drug despite being told of its harmful effects.

Sources close to Jackson told CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta that the singer, who suffered from a sleep disorder, traveled with an anesthesiologist who would "take him down" at night and "bring him back up" during a world tour in the mid-90s.

The California State Attorney General's office has now said it is helping the Los Angeles Police Department in Jackson's death investigation. The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration is also looking into the role of drugs, two federal law enforcement sources said.


The drug Diprivan, known by its generic name Propofol, is administered intravenously in operating rooms as a general anesthetic, the manufacturer AstraZeneca said Friday.

"It is neither indicated nor approved for use as a sleep aid," said spokesman Tony Jewell.

The drug works as a depressant on one's central nervous system.

"It works on your brain," said Dr. Zeev Kain, the chair of the anesthesiology department at the University of California Irvine. "It basically puts the entire brain to sleep."

However, once the infusion is stopped, the patient wakes up almost immediately.

"So if you're going to do this, you'd have to have somebody right there giving you the medication and monitoring you continuously," Kain said.

Dr. Hector Vila, chairman of the Ambulatory Surgery Committee for the American Society of Anesthesiologists, said he administers the drug during office procedures such as urology, dentistry and gynecology. It is also the most common anesthetic for colonoscopies, he said.

Both doctors said that while they have heard of the drug being abused by health care professionals, who have ready access to it, they had not heard of it being used as a sleep aid medication.

"Propofol induces coma, it does not induce sleep," Kain said. "I can put you in a coma for as many days as you want. And, in fact, in intensive care units who have patients who are on a ventilator, that's one of the drugs they use."

Dr. Rakesh Marwah, of the anesthesiology department at the Stanford University School of Medicine, said the drug can lead to cardiac arrest without proper monitoring.

"Propofol slows down the heart rate and slows down the respiratory rate and slows down the vital functions of the body," he said.

Not enough carbon dioxide exits the body; not enough oxygen enters. And the situation can cause the heart to abruptly stop.

"[It is] as dangerous as it comes," Kain said. "You will die if you will give yourself, or if somebody will give you, Propofol and you're not in the proper medical hands."

Los Angeles police have interviewed Jackson's cardiologist, Dr. Conrad Murray, who apparently tried to revive the singer after he was found unconscious on June 25.

They also impounded Murray's car, saying it might contain evidence -- possibly prescription medications. Police did not say whether they found anything.

Through his lawyers, Murray has released several statements saying that he would not be commenting until the toxicology results into Jackson's death are released. The tests are due back in two to three weeks, the Los Angeles County coroner said Thursday.

"We are treating all unnamed sources as rumors. And, as we have stated before, we will not be responding to rumors or innuendo," Murray's lawyer, Matt Alford said Friday. "We are awaiting the facts to come out and we will respond at that time. "

The anesthesiologist who accompanied Jackson during the HIStory tour in the mid-'90s also refused to comment, although he acknowledged Jackson suffered from a sleep disorder.

"I'm very upset. I'm distraught. Michael was a good person. I can't talk about it right now," Dr. Neil Ratner said outside his Woodstock, New York, home Thursday. "It's really something I don't want to talk about right now. I lost a good friend."

On Thursday, the California State Attorney General's Office said it will assist Los Angeles police in sifting through information in a state database that monitors controlled medication.

The database, known as CURES (Controlled Substance Utilization Review and Evaluation System), contains an estimated 86 million records that list all doctors who prescribe such medication, the amount, the date and the person who receives it.

Authorities said the database was used in the investigation after the death of former model and reality TV show star Anna Nicole Smith.

A day earlier, federal law enforcement sources said DEA agents would be looking at various doctors involved with Jackson, their practices and their possible sources of medicine supply.

A number of people close to Jackson have expressed concern that medication could have contributed to the singer's death at age 50.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/03/jackson.diprivan/index.html#cnnSTCText
 
This is interesting, too, from 2007:

Propofol Abuse Growing Problem for Anesthesiologists

One addict fell asleep at his desk so often that his lolling forehead became a perpetual bruise. Another was so desperate for a fix that he started trolling through sharps bins for discarded needles with traces of drug to inject.

The addicts were two doctors, an anesthesiologist and a family physician. Their drug of choice: propofol.

If that’s surprising, consider this: One in five academic anesthesiology training programs reported at least one case of abuse by physicians or other healthcare workers over the past decade, new research shows. The incidence of propofol abuse has risen fivefold over the last 10 years.

Propofol abuse shatters careers and lives—and worse. Only a few cc’s more than what’s required to put a person to sleep can trigger fatal respiratory arrest. That threat is an insufficient deterrent for determined users; 40% of residents who reportedly abused the anesthetic died from the high—the peril of propofol’s exquisitely narrow therapeutic window.

“That’s the drive to use this drug. It’s amazing,” said Paul Wischmeyer, MD, an anesthesiologist at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver. “People who have abused propofol say it’s pretty much their first-choice drug every time.”

Because propofol is such a short-acting substance, heavy abusers must inject it frequently to stay high—as many as 50 to 100 times during a using session is not unheard of, he said. Access to the drug is not a problem, as propofol is among the most widely used anesthetic agents in both hospitals and, increasingly, office settings. “It’s everywhere,” Dr. Wischmeyer said.

Dr. Wischmeyer became interested in studying propofol abuse in physicians after hearing the bin-fishing physician, who had since sought treatment for his addiction, describe his ordeal. Dr. Wischmeyer and his colleagues have conducted surveys on the extent of propofol abuse, and that of inhaled anesthetics, among academic anesthesiologists. Their work was presented at the 2007 annual meeting of the International Anesthesia Research Society, and has been accepted for publication in a major specialty journal.

Although many in academia are aware of propofol abuse, most anesthesiologists in private practice probably have not heard of the troubling phenomenon, Dr. Wischmeyer said. Yet, even if anesthesiology department heads know such a problem exists, the news hasn’t filtered down yet to the hospitals in which they practice. No formal system is in place for monitoring propofol, as there is for opioid drugs and other controlled substances, in 71% of programs the Colorado group polled. A statistically significant correlation exists between the incidence of propofol abuse and the lack of pharmacy control over the anesthetic, he added.

Old Problem, New Solution

Drug abuse by anesthesiologists is hardly a new topic. The American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) has been addressing it for decades. The group pushed for gas scavenging and air recirculation technology with the hope of reducing the exposure to operating room (OR) personnel of anesthetic gases. In 2001, the ASA became alarmed enough about substance abuse that it designed a model curriculum for residency programs to combat the problem.

“Educating residents may be an effective method for prevention of the disease and, through heightened awareness, will hasten identification and treatment of victims of the disease,” according to an ASA statement about the curriculum.

In order to gain accreditation, residency programs in anesthesiology must offer trainees at least some education on chemical dependence each year.

Lately, the lay press has picked up on the subject. Men’s Health magazine published an article last November titled, “The Junkie in the O.R.,” claiming an “epidemic” of drug-addled anesthesiologists “who are addicted to their own drugs.”

The article cited studies suggesting that “more than 400 drug-addicted anesthesiologists and residents may be working in operating rooms at this moment,” and that the specialty is disproportionately treated for addiction. (Experts interviewed for this article disputed that figure, saying the real number, although nearly impossible to determine, is probably much smaller.)

The story relied in part on findings from a group of researchers at the University of Florida who believe that anesthesiologists may be unwittingly driven to substance abuse through chronic exposure to aerosolized fentanyl and propofol exhaled by patients in the OR (Med Hypotheses 2006;66:874-882).

In a letter to the magazine, ASA president Mark Lema, MD, PhD, called the story “sensationalistic,” “lurid” and “bizarre.”

Men’s Health may have presented “unsubstantiated theories as fact,” in the words of Dr. Lema. But the new findings indicate that propofol abuse is indeed a potentially serious problem facing anesthesiology departments.

At least one case of propofol abuse or diversion—theft of the drug or its use by someone other than a patient—was reported in 20% of the nation’s 126 academic training programs in the specialty, according to one of the Colorado surveys.

Of the 29 cases reported to researchers, 16 involved residents and six were attending physicians; three were nurse anesthetists, and two were OR or anesthesia technicians, with two classified as “other.”

In the vast majority of cases, physicians who abused propofol dropped out of anesthesiology, the researchers found, with only three of 22 remaining in the field and seven leaving medicine entirely. Slightly more than half of all abusers completed a rehabilitation program, with four reports of relapse.

Deaths attributable to abuse were alarmingly common, with nine overall. The incidence of mortality was highest for residents, among whom six deaths (37.5%) were reported.

In a related study, Dr. Wischmeyer’s group conducted an online survey of the 126 anesthesiology department chairs about abuse of inhaled anesthetics among their personnel. Again, they found its incidence apparently growing, with 21 (23%) of the 90 department heads who responded to the survey reporting at least one case of abuse within the last 25 years; of those cases, 61% occurred since 2000. Residents and nurse anesthetists accounted for 43% and 21% of cases, respectively.

As before, mortality was far from uncommon, with six of 28 cases (21%) resulting in death. Dr. Wischmeyer noted that the apparent surge in cases of abuse over the past decade might be affected by recall bias. However, he added, “either way, it is alarming.”

Joel Wilson, MD, a resident in anesthesiology at the University of Colorado, who helped conduct the research (abstracts S-89 and S-92), said he and his colleagues are planning several additional studies. The group is particularly interested in trying to replicate the work of the Florida investigators, and hope to correlate prolonged exposure to propofol in the OR with elevated levels of the drug in blood and hair. “We also want to see if we can find a difference in pre- and postsurgery blood levels of propofol in residents working in the OR and try to determine if these levels are clinically meaningful,” he said.

Link to Emotional Trauma

Unlike abusers of alcohol or most other substances, propofol addicts are unable to function on the job, said Paul Earley, MD, medical director of the Talbott Recovery Campus, an addiction rehabilitation facility in Atlanta that specializes in treating doctors and other healthcare providers.

“It’s not a subtle drug,” Dr. Earley said. “It’s not like fentanyl or narcotics, where you can be slightly inebriated on the drug and even show up for work. Most of the time, you inject it and pass out.”

Talbott has seen a growing number of propofol abusers over the last two years, Dr. Earley said. Almost all of them have been anesthesiologists; the majority appear to be women. Many have admitted to a history of psychological or physical trauma, such as rape or childhood sexual abuse—which may help explain the drug’s appeal, Dr. Earley said. “What it’s best at is why it’s used in anesthesia—making people unconscious. It’s somewhat dissociative, and can lead to an out-of-body sensation.”

“Propofol is a drug that in a sense doesn’t get you high,” said Omar S. Manejwala, MD, associate medical director at the William J. Farley Center at Williamsburg Place, an addiction treatment clinic in Virginia that, like Talbott, also focuses on physicians. “It blocks out the world,”

In his experience, Dr. Manejwala said, nearly every propofol addict started injecting to overcome persistent insomnia. That aspect of the medication fits neatly with the link both Drs. Manejwala and Earley have observed between propofol abuse and a history of trauma. “One of the hallmark symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder [PTSD] is hyperarousal. Folks with PTSD want to block that out,” Dr. Manejwala said.

What’s puzzling, experts said, is the strength of the connection. “I don’t know of any other drug where the perceived incidence of trauma, particularly of sexual trauma [in abusers], is so high,” Dr. Manejwala said. “It’s really quite remarkable.”

In fact, Dr. Earley suspects that the psychological factors that push certain people to misuse propofol may also underlie the difficulties they face in overcoming the addiction.

“I think we’re going to learn more about how to treat it, but there’s a window of time when our skill set is not what it could be,” he said. “We’re just now on the learning curve of figuring out how to treat these folks.”

http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/index.asp?ses=ogst&section_id=1&show=dept&article_id=7579

And this: :scared1:

Case Report
An otherwise healthy, 25-yr-old man presented to the neurology and psychiatry clinic because he was thought to have ADHD. Urged by his wife, he also reported regular usage of a white milky substance called propofol. At the age of 8 yr, he was given methylphenhydate (ritalin) for 1 yr because of his hyperactive behavior and attention deficits at school. After his parents stopped his ritalin administration for fear of long-term side effects, his symptoms of hyperactivity worsened, but he managed to graduate from high school, and studied to be an accountant in his father's company. At the age of 21 yr, he started to experience tension headaches, which were treated with propofol injections by an anesthesiologist. He had several appointments with this anesthesiologist for propofol treatment. From this time on, he started to inject himself with this drug. Before, he had occasionally self-administered benzodiazepines and morphine, and sometimes, he consumed marijuana. He obtained prescriptions for propofol from various veterinarians whom he told that he was a tropical fish enthusiast and he needed propofol to anesthetize his fish. He had three or four propofol sessions per week, lasting 1-2 h. He would inject 5 ml propofol, 1%, in an antecubital vein, fall into a deep, relaxing sleep for approximately 5-10 min, wake up, and inject another 5 ml of the drug, using up to 60-100 ml propofol, 1%, which he had drawn up in 20-ml syringes, :scared1: per session. After he accidentally injected an overdose of this drug, he was found by his wife, unconscious and cyanotic. After a stay of several days in a hospital for clinical observation, he was convinced to attend an in-hospital drug rehabilitation program. There, he did not show any withdrawal symptoms, but after 7 days, he refused to participate in therapy anymore and left the hospital.

http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiol...=2002&issue=02000&article=00039&type=fulltext
 
Wow! I'm thinking I'd blame the doctors in this case -- if it does turn out MJ was addicted to propofol. No excuse for giving it to him -- clearly the same research was available to them.

I did hear somewhere that MJ's personal physician had already lost his license for 3 years for Medicare fraud. I guess negligent homicide might get added to his rap sheet.
 
Maybe he self-administered the injection. :confused3

he had an anesthesiologist on tour with him.....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/08/NGfindcayleeblog/index.html

"The investigation surrounding Michael Jackson's sudden death intensifies. The California Attorney General confirms joining the investigation, combing its narcotic enforcement database containing a list of doctors who prescribe controlled substances. The database also keeps tabs on the quantity and receipt of those substances. This, as sources reveal Jackson traveled with a "mini-clinic" of sorts, when he toured during the 90's. The "mini-clinic" consisted of an IV pole and an anesthesiologist who medicated the music superstar, who allegedly battled insomnia."
 












Save Up to 30% on Rooms at Walt Disney World!

Save up to 30% on rooms at select Disney Resorts Collection hotels when you stay 5 consecutive nights or longer in late summer and early fall. Plus, enjoy other savings for shorter stays.This offer is valid for stays most nights from August 1 to October 11, 2025.
CLICK HERE













DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest

Back
Top