Does anyone honest to goodness tithe?

[Aidensmom]

God performs miracles. So, you tell me, what are his selection criteria?

How come God saves one kid and not another? What makes the one kid so flippin deserving and not the other...since God has decided to intervene for this kid, but not that one?

How come some parents get to walk around saying, "God saved my baby!" while other parents get to bury their babies?

That is a question only God can answer. However, because I, a mere human being does not know the answer, doesn't mean that miracles don't happen.

I will tell you that I know some people have grown up relatively problem free in their lives, while I grew up in a family full of alcoholism, abuse, and neglect, and personally also have suffered from, as if that stuff wasn't enough, several major health problems throughout my life. I CAN go through and tell you the multitude of postive things that came out of my experiences and have made me who I am and have, IMO, produced a lot of positive characteristics of myself if you have the hours to listen.

If something happened to my child, you can bet I would be devastated. But I would never think that God had forsaken me by allowing that to happen, I would know that my child was blessed to be able to be in the presence of the Lord, even thought it was extremely difficult for me to live without him. I think I have just been through enough in life to know that things are never ALL bad. And if God chose to perform a miracle in my life, which I can pretty much already tell you that He HAS, I am going to praise Him for that and be happy about it, not feel guilty because life doesn't appear to be fair.

 

[lori1043]

OK, now God, in addition to his monopoly intervention, has saved your daughter from cancer. But he lets other people's kids die.

I am so very sick and tired of people deciding that they are so flippin special that God selected them to bless with His grace. You aren't that special. God doesn't like you better. Your kid isn't any better than any other kid with cancer, and didn't deserve to live anymore than any other kid did. And God didn't say, "Well, I like little Ashley, so I'll save her life...but little Kaitlyn, well, I don't like her, so I'll send her pain and let her die."

What you are isn't blessed. What you are is lucky.

This is ridiculus. I don't feel any more blessed than the parents of the kids that we went through chemo with who died. If God decided to take my child, I'd feel just as blessed-yes, angry, and many other emotions, but I still would beleive that He has my best intentions at heart-He has a plan. I have been to too many children's funerals to feel more special than them.
Like I said, there is no HUMAN reasoning for some things to happen, whether it is non believers or Christians. All I know is this- There is a reason and season for everything and I have faith that He has a plan for our kids lives, whether He takes them early or late. He has a plan for my life. And yours.

And I agree, my kid isn't any better than any other kids with cancer. I CAN tell you this- she has a better understanding of LIFE and who gave it to her than anyone I know-and that is not LUCK. That is FAITH.

"Kaitlyn" may have been taken from this earth b/c He needed her as an angel, or He needed her mom to start a support group for others who have lost children and she may have had to go through that to get there. Maybe "Ashley" is to become a doctor/scientist who will find a cure to cancer or a nurse who sits at the bedside of a child who has a life threatening illness-and really understand.

I don't believe in luck.

 

[Glendamax]

And if God chose to perform a miracle in my life, which I can pretty much already tell you that He HAS, I am going to praise Him for that and be happy about it, not feel guilty because life doesn't appear to be fair.

Well said!

 

[Cool-Beans]

This is ridiculus. I don't feel any more blessed than the parents of the kids that we went through chemo with who died. If God decided to take my child, I'd feel just as blessed-yes, angry, and many other emotions, but I still would beleive that He has my best intentions at heart-He has a plan. I have been to too many children's funerals to feel more special than them.
Like I said, there is no HUMAN reasoning for some things to happen, whether it is non believers or Christians. All I know is this- There is a reason and season for everything and I have faith that He has a plan for our kids lives, whether He takes them early or late. He has a plan for my life. And yours.

And I agree, my kid isn't any better than any other kids with cancer. I CAN tell you this- she has a better understanding of LIFE and who gave it to her than anyone I know-and that is not LUCK. That is FAITH.

"Kaitlyn" may have been taken from this earth b/c He needed her as an angel, or He needed her mom to start a support group for others who have lost children and she may have had to go through that to get there. Maybe "Ashley" is to become a doctor/scientist who will find a cure to cancer or a nurse who sits at the bedside of a child who has a life threatening illness-and really understand.

I don't believe in luck.

First of all, Christmas isn't YOUR gift to give and take back.

If you believe that God is saving your kid from dying, then you gotta figure that he is killing off others. If you give credit for the former, you must lay blame for the latter.

If God is running around getting involved in people's lives, then what is he thinking when he chooses to have, say, a 7 year old boy stolen from his parents, beaten, raped, and decapitated? Or that little girl in Florida who got raped and buried alive? If God is responsible for what is going on in our lives, guiding them...then he is responsible for all of it.

Oh, wait, I know. We can't understand, because we're human. But we can understand that God got involved in YOUR life to save YOUR daughter. And in your husband's Monopoly game, of course.

I believe in luck. Because I don't believe that God is picking some folks out to torture, while selecting others to receive miracles. Not the God I believe in, anyway.

 

[aquinas]

I can't wait to see how the fools who think I would post something I can't back up will try and twist this one. Is Mr. Kampert a liar too?

http://www.saddleback.com/flash/s_PDFs/ChicagoTribuneLivingwithpurpose42504.pdf

See the fifth paragraph under the heading of "An action plan".

He makes it very clear they follow the bible, and the bible says it has to be 10% does it not? It's a membership requirement - right there in black and white.

It is? Then how do you account for the people that are still members there that dont give 10%? And you still havent explained how Saddleback even knows what people make and IF they tithe 10%. If its a requirement as you say then once people no longer meet that requirement then they should be asked to leave. How do you account for the members of Saddleback that dont tithe? Do you think every member of a 30K church tithes? You think they are asked to leave? But you dont see that happening, do you?

The covenant says that you agree to give generously. Its right there in black and white.

We know you think the church is a corrupt institution in your eyes that you feel is only after people's money or the church only has Christmas Eve services to pad the pastor's "vacation fund". We get it. We could see your motivation when you posted the Wikipedia entry that included those that felt that signing a covenant was equal to extortion.

 

[cybrkitn]

OK, now God, in addition to his monopoly intervention, has saved your daughter from cancer. But he lets other people's kids die.

I am so very sick and tired of people deciding that they are so flippin special that God selected them to bless with His grace. You aren't that special. God doesn't like you better. Your kid isn't any better than any other kid with cancer, and didn't deserve to live anymore than any other kid did. And God didn't say, "Well, I like little Ashley, so I'll save her life...but little Kaitlyn, well, I don't like her, so I'll send her pain and let her die."

What you are isn't blessed. What you are is lucky.

Cool-Beans, you really lashed out pretty hard there. Why are you so angry?

OT: My SIL died back in April from cancer at age 54. Her faith was very strong all the way to the end. We all prayed for her healing, including my SIL. But it was not God's will. We couldn't understand it either, but God showed her things so that she could relay it to us and others. My BIL (DH's oldest brother) became a Christian because of her testimony. The day before she died, she was in the hospital, woke up and said, "I have seen Jesus! Angels took me to Him and I am going back!" The next day, she went home to be with the Lord. God used my SIL's testimony to His Glory to show that He is indeed God. I only understood that after she went home.

One slight detail about my SIL. She was on her death-bed twice before she went "home". Both times she bounced back and her doctors even said it was a miracle, that they have never seen anything like it.

 

[3DisneyKids]

I find that interesting since I am LDS and have never had anyone ask to see my IRS tax return. In fact I'm in tears from laughing so hard at that! No one ever asks how much we make! And to the poster who said we pay it blindly, I find that laughable also. I pay my tithing like any other christian because I made a covenat with the Lord that I would. Simple as that. And for anyone who is wondering, no mormon's don't have horns or multiple wives as HBO would like you to believe!

Thank you for clarification and stopping the spreading of misconceptions. However, my co-worker is President of the local LDS and I just asked him this question. He said that absolutely Mormons must tithe or they are not "in good standing" (his words). And when you are not in good standing you are not "on the nice list" (he was making a joke because it is Christmas, but his point was that you are not saved if you do not tithe).

Would different mormon congregations have different standards or practices? (Please note: not stirring the pot here, really asking...)

 

[3DisneyKids]

This is ridiculus. I don't feel any more blessed than the parents of the kids that we went through chemo with who died. If God decided to take my child, I'd feel just as blessed-yes, angry, and many other emotions, but I still would beleive that He has my best intentions at heart-He has a plan. I have been to too many children's funerals to feel more special than them.

With all due respect, I don't think you can say that this would be your reaction until you have actually walked that path. Let's all hope that none of us has to.

 

[winkers]

Thank you for clarification and stopping the spreading of misconceptions. However, my co-worker is President of the local LDS and I just asked him this question. He said that absolutely Mormons must tithe or they are not "in good standing" (his words). And when you are not in good standing you are not "on the nice list" (he was making a joke because it is Christmas, but his point was that you are not saved if you do not tithe).

Would different mormon congregations have different standards or practices? (Please note: not stirring the pot here, really asking...)

No different congregations don't have different standards, it is the same throughout the world. Of course there are always different human interpretations, as with anything. What I had disagreed with was the statement that we have to show our IRS forms to prove what we make or tithe. I just had "tithing settlement" with my bishop this week. Which is where at the end of the year we get a statement showing all of our contributions that we can use for tax purposes. And we tell our bishop if we were full, partial, or non tithe payers for the year. Strictly between us and the bishop, and he doen'st ask for proof, totally on our honor. Perhaps that is where the misconception started. And yes we believ that paying our tithe is also part of being saved. Does that help or just make it more confusing?

 

[3DisneyKids]

Cool-Beans, you really lashed out pretty hard there. Why are you so angry?

I do not want to speak for this poster, but I think that your previous posts, in particular, are most difficult for someone (who does not have a strong faith) to understand.

I will state, with respect, that I tend to agree that your DH getting a McD's coupon for free food when he was hungry was not divine intervention. He was in Vegas, right? This is the mecca of free buffets! No one goes hungry in Vegas!

In one of your responses to me, you stated that I didn't understand because I don't have the stength of faith. Not true. I have a very strong faith. I am a PK, and even studied religion and theology formally, and am very active in my own church. My faith is a big part of who I am.

That being said....

I believe that God made us rational beings. God had the power to create us to be anything...God could have created humans to be mindless servents who worshiped no matter what. God did not do this...we have FREE WILL. God wants people to CHOOSE to worship and follow, for that is when it is meaningful. If we were all just created to blindly worship, then that devotion would be meaningless, right? However, the fact that we can all reason, engage in critical thinking, be analytical, etc., the fact that God gave us these skills, is because we are intended to use these skills.

Thus, going back to one of my earlier responses to you, no, I don't think God gave your DH the car or the food coupon. We are expected to use the thinking skills and amazing brain power given to us and learn what and how to make good choices and decisions. You clearly stated that you bought a car that you know you cannot affords. I do not believe that God had you do this. On the contrary, I think that you are not using all of the intellectual talents that God has bestowed upon you.

Finally, you also stated that you know these were blessings from God because I was looking at this through human eyes and not God's eyes...you then said that you looked at this situation through God's eyes. Yikes! You bet I looked at it through human eyes...that is what God gave me, and I am grateful. I do not know one single person of faith who would ever say that they see the world throguh God's eyes. Perhaps you mis-spoke in your earlier post.

I wish you and all on this thread many blessings.

 

[JoyG]

The link does give considerable credence to the poster's claim, I admit, & I apologize for assuming there was no proof forthcoming. However, it doesn't answer the question of what happens if a member fails to tithe. Is membership revoked? If not, then can it be considered a requirement? The article does not state that every member tithes. How does the church monitor this? Are financial records requested? Is the church looking for "giving generously" or must it be an actual tithe? If Saddleback has all it's thousands of members tithing, that would be astonishing & a real testament to RW's leadership!

FWIW, my church asks new members to sign a pledge to "give generously & regularly" (we emphasize the Biblical tithe), but it is not monitored unless a member seeks a leadership position. I know this because my wife is the financial secretary.

Jimmie, what it sounds like you're saying is "unless it's enforced it's not really a requirement" (and it kind of sounds like Aquinas is saying that too).

If that's what you mean, I'll have to respectfully disagree. If they are calling something a requirement that's exactly what it is...whether or not they actually discipline someone for it or not.

The third graders are required to do homework in my class. I don't always collect the homework and grade it. That doesn't mean it's not still a requirement to do it. I expect them to be doing it even if I'm not grading it.

With that said, I'm still not totally convinced that tithing 10% is a requirement at Saddleback, but reading their covenant they were very clear that not gossiping was a requirement...and unfortunately that's what bothers me about the covenent.

ETA: rereading Cardaway's link it does appear that RW said himself the covenent includes a pledge to tithe 10%, so although it's not spelled out in the covenent, I think it's clear that's how RW interprets the pact...still uncertain as to if I'd use the word "requirement" or not.

 

[aquinas]

I do not want to speak for this poster, but I think that your previous posts, in particular, are most difficult for someone (who does not have a strong faith) to understand.

I will state, with respect, that I tend to agree that your DH getting a McD's coupon for free food when he was hungry was not divine intervention. He was in Vegas, right? This is the mecca of free buffets! No one goes hungry in Vegas!

In one of your responses to me, you stated that I didn't understand because I don't have the stength of faith. Not true. I have a very strong faith. I am a PK, and even studied religion and theology formally, and am very active in my own church. My faith is a big part of who I am.

That being said....

I believe that God made us rational beings. God had the power to create us to be anything...God could have created humans to be mindless servents who worshiped no matter what. God did not do this...we have FREE WILL. God wants people to CHOOSE to worship and follow, for that is when it is meaningful. If we were all just created to blindly worship, then that devotion would be meaningless, right? However, the fact that we can all reason, engage in critical thinking, be analytical, etc., the fact that God gave us these skills, is because we are intended to use these skills.

Thus, going back to one of my earlier responses to you, no, I don't think God gave your DH the car or the food coupon. We are expected to use the thinking skills and amazing brain power given to us and learn what and how to make good choices and decisions. You clearly stated that you bought a car that you know you cannot affords. I do not believe that God had you do this. On the contrary, I think that you are not using all of the intellectual talents that God has bestowed upon you.

Finally, you also stated that you know these were blessings from God because I was looking at this through human eyes and not God's eyes...you then said that you looked at this situation through God's eyes. Yikes! You bet I looked at it through human eyes...that is what God gave me, and I am grateful. I do not know one single person of faith who would ever say that they see the world throguh God's eyes. Perhaps you mis-spoke in your earlier post.

I wish you and all on this thread many blessings.

Do you think that you can comprehend God with your intellectuality and human reasoning? "Gods ways are not our ways". When you think that God didnt have a hand in one thing or another, you put God in a box and say what God chooses or not chooses to do. You discount any miracle or action that you can not believe that God would do. God is sovereign in ALL things.

Just because you cant believe something came from God with your VERY limited understanding doesnt mean it didnt. Miracles happen every day. There are no coincidences with God. Dont be so quick to say what God does or doesnt do OR be so quick to discount others who feel that God is working in their lives and providing because they have been faithful of what has been asked of them. Faith of a little child. Remember.....

 

[cardaway]

I just looked at Saddleback's website, and that of the local church I used to attend, and they are almost identical in what they state as beliefs and values. I do know that at my local church, you pledge to strive to tithe when you become a member, and I lean towards the belief that Saddleback does the same thing. Pledging to try to tithe, and having your tax forms verified to make sure are two completely different things. I still don't think they require tithing, only a promise that you will try. Like I said, I don't have personal experience with Saddlebrook or Willowcreek themselves, but I do with an associated church. Feel free to call me a liar if you wish.

This thread got pretty ugly before you joined it Aidensmom. The harsh words I was using at the time were not directed at you. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

I backed up what I posted, proof that a tithe of 10% is required for membership. There is more out there if people want to doubt that the guy from Chicago got it right, but at this point that really should be on them to find for themselves.

As for what is officially in the membership handbook, there is nothing anywhere that spells out what happens when somebody doesn't fulfill ANY of the church membership requirements. Specifically on the tithing issue, like I posted before, anybody can tell the difference between barely giving anything and giving the expected 10%. Even I don't think anybody would be kicked out for giving only 8.5%, and yes, I agree there is no way they would know the difference between 8.5 and 10%.

As for proof of what happens when they don't, there is plenty out there from people who were treated like a vendor who wasn't doing his part by people that suddenly stopped being church leaders and became big business collection agents. But I refuse to play the game that would happen if I was to post links to message boards (just like this one) where these things were discussed. Likely people would post that do not believe what these people wrote because they have an issue with the church (after having their membership revoked). People that were treated like nothing but source of money rather than somebody who was willing to continue with the church if they would have them.

I have a lot of respect for you and know you don't do the things others on this thread have done. I accept you haven't seen this stuff, but I still believe this stuff happened to these people, and it's entirely possible it's happening because there are some people in those churches that are not following the wishes of the founder.

 

[cardaway]

The link does give considerable credence to the poster's claim, I admit, & I apologize for assuming there was no proof forthcoming. However, it doesn't answer the question of what happens if a member fails to tithe. Is membership revoked? If not, then can it be considered a requirement? The article does not state that every member tithes. How does the church monitor this? Are financial records requested? Is the church looking for "giving generously" or must it be an actual tithe? If Saddleback has all it's thousands of members tithing, that would be astonishing & a real testament to RW's leadership!

FWIW, my church asks new members to sign a pledge to "give generously & regularly" (we emphasize the Biblical tithe), but it is not monitored unless a member seeks a leadership position. I know this because my wife is the financial secretary.

Apology accepted and thanks for that jimmiej. I have to admit, of all the people on this thread I think who owe me an apology, you were the last one I thought would step up.

I start today having more respect for you that I did yesterday. Hopefully one day you will even feel OK in calling me by my username rather than "the poster".

 

[3DisneyKids]

Do you think that you can comprehend God with your intellectuality and human reasoning?

Nope. Never said I could.

you put God in a box and say what God chooses or not chooses to do. You discount any miracle or action that you can not believe that God would do.

No again. God is not in a box. Many people here are putting God in a box simply by referring to God as a male (whole different thread and I promise not to go there). I am just stating that I do not believe that everything is divine intervention. Yes, I believe that God can do anything and everything. However, I do not believe that God micromanages. My belief, you do not have to agree.

Miracles happen every day.

They sure do. I never said that they didn't.

By the way, great job exercising your critical thinking skills in your response to me! (This is a true praise, not slamming you at all or being sarcastic. I believe that we are supposed to engage in debates of faith...that is how we come to our faith.)

 

[JoyG]

God performs miracles. So, you tell me, what are his selection criteria?

How come God saves one kid and not another? What makes the one kid so flippin deserving and not the other...since God has decided to intervene for this kid, but not that one?

How come some parents get to walk around saying, "God saved my baby!" while other parents get to bury their babies?

Cool Beans

You are asking the tough questions. I know that this is a hard one to reconcile for a lot of people.

I honestly believe God loves all of us the same. He loves non christians just as much as he loves christians...and he loves us all more than any of us can imagine with our miniscule human brains. He loved us all enough to send his son to die for us.

I believe God chooses to intervene in people's lives or not based on what's best for the person and lives of those around them.

When bad things happen to good people I just have to trust that God knows what he's doing. He promises that "ALL things work together for good for those that love God and are called according to his purposes..."
I take that to mean he will take any negative situation and make sure good comes out of it...whether I'm able to recognize that good or not.

And you know what, bad things do happen to good people all the time. It doesn't seem like it's fair, that some people get their loved ones healed and others don't...but we don't really know what other "bad" things they might have already experienced in their lives or might be going to experience in the future.

 

[aquinas]

This thread got pretty ugly before you joined it Aidensmom. The harsh words I was using at the time were not directed at you. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

I backed up what I posted, proof that a tithe of 10% is required for membership. There is more out there if people want to doubt that the guy from Chicago got it right, but at this point that really should be on them to find for themselves.

As for what is officially in the membership handbook, there is nothing anywhere that spells out what happens when somebody doesn't fulfill of the church membership requirements. Specifically on the tithising issue, liek I posted before, anybody can tell the difference between barely giving anything and giving the expected 10%. Even I don't think anybody would be kicked out for giving only 8.5%,a nd yes, I agree there is no way they would know the difference between 8.5 and 10%.

As for proof of what happens when they don't, there is plenty out there from people who were treated like a vendor who wasn't doing his part by people that suddenly stopped being church leaders and became big business collection agents. But I refuse to play the game that would happen if I was to post links to message boards (just like this one) where these things were discussed. Likely people would psot that do not believe what these people wrote because they have an issue with the church (after having their membership revoked). People that were treated like nothing but source of money rather than somebody who was willing to continue with the church if they would have them.

I have a lot of respect for you and know you don't do the things others on this thread have done. I accept you haven't seen this stuff, but I still believe this stuff happened to these people, and it's entirely possible it's happening because there are some people in those churches that are not folowing the wishes of the founder.

Big business collection agents? More hyperbole. Can you provide me with an example from Saddleback where people were individually "hounded" over how much they chose to give? I mean if this is happening at Saddleback then there should be 100s of former members out there that you could point to and show us how they had their membership revoked because of amount of giving. AND you still havent explained what happens to those members that dont tithe at all. Give generously was what was stated in the covenant. That could be one's time as well as money.

 

[aquinas]

Apology accepted and thanks for that jimmiej. I have to admit, of all the people on this thread I think who owe me an apology, you were the last one I thought would step up.

I start today having more respect for you that I did yesterday. Hopefully one day you will even feel OK in calling me by my username rather than "the poster".

If you expect apologies from people then I wouldnt refer to people as "fools" and then play the victim when you feel that others have been rude to you.

I am curious, do you feel you owe anyone an apology on this thread?

 

[aquinas]

By the way, great job exercising your critical thinking skills in your response to me! (This is a true praise, not slamming you at all or being sarcastic. I believe that we are supposed to engage in debates of faith...that is how we come to our faith.)

I believe we should all "work out our salvation" as Paul said.

But we all need to be careful about trying to intellectually grasping the ways and mind of God. I struggle with this because I am a more analytical and rational person. I am not a touchy, feely kind of guy. Some things that God has done throughout history would seem irrational to the human mind. Virgin birth? how can that happen? Raising people from the dead? Using David to fight Goliath. the disciples were primarily fishermen. Sending Jesus to earth as a baby. Using a man, Saul/Paul to spread the gospel who previously persecuted Christians. The list goes on and on. Things that make no sense to us rationally but God chooses to do just the same. So, did God provide food in the way of coupons to the posters husband? Perhaps. But the good thing is that we will all one day see clearly what is hidden or"fuzzy" if you will. All will be revealed.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Would different mormon congregations have different standards or practices? (Please note: not stirring the pot here, really asking...)

According to my LDS friends the answer it yes. They were in a large community so it was stricter.

SLC is strick too. Ask the DIS, who was not an LDS member, whose husband was called to talk to a church elder about joining. He said he was happy with what he was. They then showed him the previus years W2 form from his LDS owned company. So yes they do check, but some cases it is harder than others.