Doctor Dies From Allergic Reaction After Raglan Road Meal at Disney Springs

[mistysue]

Not following this story closely (Okay we got NYPost reporting and well heeled clients on both sides of the case) but are there allegations of contaminated food as well as allergies within the legal docs? If so, whoever is being sued has a very high threshold to overcome.

No, no allegations of bacterial contamination. She had a catastrophic immune response to multiple antigens.

I agree with you. Looking only at the Cashew (which was one of several antibodies found in the postmortem bloodwork). The likelihood of her walking around with that antigen in her tummy for 45 minutes borders on Biologically improbable. Cashew is the deadliest nut allergy, and nearly always causes anaphylaxis, sometimes from touch alone. When you add in the other nuts, peanut, and milk that was found, it’s far more reasonable that she accidentally came in contact with the antigens while shopping.

I've never heard that Disney trains third party staff. It may be that Disney offers training seminars much like it does to CMs and businesses etc. (DD took a seminar for free while CM that Disney offered to businesses for $$$). But even if there were training and it were required ... I doubt that Disney has any input into their kitchen operations.


I agree and how did SO MANY allergens end up in her system? Was if from the Raglan food or elsewhere? Does Raglan even keep all those items in their kitchen? If they don't then major questions arise especially given the timeline.

Biggest question for me is how the plaintiff proves the allergen was a result of eating at this specific restaurant.

This keeps coming up, I quoted all the above to ask - I've now both called one of the testing labs that will check foods after reactions, AND spoken to three different allergists. What is this testing that shows what a person reacted to? I believe they did NORMAL IgE testing and someone in the doctor's legal team doesn't understand it's a general allergy test, not a test for what a person ate.
There are cases all the time where a person with multiple allergies dies and they NEVER find out which allergen it was. Because there is not a test for which allergen you reacted to. So all these comments about how she had milk and seven different nuts in her system... no. What is this test that doesn't exist for ANY other situation where a person has reacted while having multiple allergens? Why is this the only case where it's been used, even when other people have died? Not only are there a lot of open questions in this case, but I think some of the "answers" we've been given aren't true, such as a way to know what she had a reaction to.

We are a part of the allergy community and huge proponents of policy change and labeling and food safety but we are also a little upset at how much negative press Disney is getting from our allergy groups. We DO NOT want Disney rethinking their extremely pro food allergy safety stance. We do NOT want servers afraid to be held liable. We WANT Disney to keep doing what they have always done which is give those adults and parents and kids a safe place to enjoy eating out like normal people with minimal fear of anything going wrong.

This is what is scaring me too. People have always had random reactions at Disney, and Disney takes care of it. This case is causing a LOT of bad publicity and the last thing we need is for Disney to pull the plug on helping anyone because the case got so bad.

 

[mkatsy]

This keeps coming up, I quoted all the above to ask - I've now both called one of the testing labs that will check foods after reactions, AND spoken to three different allergists. What is this testing that shows what a person reacted to? I believe they did NORMAL IgE testing and someone in the doctor's legal team doesn't understand it's a general allergy test, not a test for what a person ate.
There are cases all the time where a person with multiple allergies dies and they NEVER find out which allergen it was. Because there is not a test for which allergen you reacted to. So all these comments about how she had milk and seven different nuts in her system... no. What is this test that doesn't exist for ANY other situation where a person has reacted while having multiple allergens? Why is this the only case where it's been used, even when other people have died? Not only are there a lot of open questions in this case, but I think some of the "answers" we've been given aren't true, such as a way to know what she had a reaction to.


This is what is scaring me too. People have always had random reactions at Disney, and Disney takes care of it. This case is causing a LOT of bad publicity and the last thing we need is for Disney to pull the plug on helping anyone because the case got so bad.

Correct … the IGE shows the antibodies that her body made in response to antigens she was exposed to. It is IMPOSSIBLE… once again …. IMPOSSIBLE…to determine which antigen triggered the anaphylaxis. Some of those antigens can be deadly by touch alone, she did not need to eat them. And additional point to consider is that the generally accepted half life of IGE is 2-3 days. Some of that IGE in her postmortem bloodwork could have been manufactured by her body the day before, and still been in circulation. But … we do know, something triggered catastrophic anaphylaxis at 8:45 pm

 

[mistysue]

Correct … the IGE shows the antibodies that her body made in response to antigens she was exposed to. It is IMPOSSIBLE… once again …. IMPOSSIBLE…to determine which antigen triggered the anaphylaxis. Some of those antigens can be deadly by touch alone, she did not need to eat them. And additional point to consider is that the generally accepted half life of IGE is 2-3 days. Some of that IGE in her postmortem bloodwork could have been manufactured by her body the day before, and still been in circulation. But … we do know, something triggered catastrophic anaphylaxis at 8:45 pm

People can go years without consuming an allergen and they still have IgE antibodies present. (just think of all the people who will say they are deathly allergic, then they haven't had a reaction/consumed the allergen in 10-15 years- they still test positive) That is why all of this doesn't make sense that people are saying they know she consumed all of those things.
Also allergens aren't deadly by touch alone unless you have broken skin or transfer the protein to a mucous membrane - which at transfer is considered ingestion. Even with nuts, they aren't different as far as how they cause reactions.

It's just such a weird point that people keep talking about how they know the foods were in her system, because we don't have a test that actually tells us that. If the IgE testing works as implied by saying the half-life is 2-3 days, every time someone got their yearly bloodwork they would need to eat everything they were allergic to so it would show up, which is not the case.

 

[mkatsy]

People can go years without consuming an allergen and they still have IgE antibodies present. (just think of all the people who will say they are deathly allergic, then they haven't had a reaction/consumed the allergen in 10-15 years- they still test positive) That is why all of this doesn't make sense that people are saying they know she consumed all of those things.
Also allergens aren't deadly by touch alone unless you have broken skin or transfer the protein to a mucous membrane - which at transfer is considered ingestion. Even with nuts, they aren't different as far as how they cause reactions.

It's just such a weird point that people keep talking about how they know the foods were in her system, because we don't have a test that actually tells us that. If the IgE testing works as implied by saying the half-life is 2-3 days, every time someone got their yearly bloodwork they would need to eat everything they were allergic to so it would show up, which is not the case.

What? … the titer is how you know the difference between persistent secretion of IgE+ in long lived plasma cells and recent exposure. If you look at the lab report they indicate that they had to dilute the blood because it exceeded the linearity of the analyzer.

 

[mistysue]

What? … the titer is how you know the difference between persistent secretion of IgE+ in long lived plasma cells and recent exposure. If you look at the lab report they indicate that they had to dilute the blood because it exceeded the linearity of the analyzer.

What lab report? Where can we see this lab report? That's what I've been asking- everyone I've spoken to has told me there is no way to tell when exposure was. With IgE testing people can have very low numbers with recent exposure, or very high numbers with no exposure for years.

Unless they are using some other sort of testing, which nobody seems to know exists, including in cases where other people have died from anaphylaxis to foods.

 

[mkatsy]

What lab report? Where can we see this lab report? That's what I've been asking- everyone I've spoken to has told me there is no way to tell when exposure was. With IgE testing people can have very low numbers with recent exposure, or very high numbers with no exposure for years.

Unless they are using some other sort of testing, which nobody seems to know exists, including in cases where other people have died from anaphylaxis to foods.

I’m at a loss here. There are very clearly defined industry standards in molecular pathology and forensic pathology. They are accepted by subject matter experts. Nobody is going to give you a guarantee. I’m not sure what you’re looking for here. The pathologist made his determination, and the scientific literature supports it.

 

[amylevan]

What lab report? Where can we see this lab report? That's what I've been asking- everyone I've spoken to has told me there is no way to tell when exposure was. With IgE testing people can have very low numbers with recent exposure, or very high numbers with no exposure for years.

Unless they are using some other sort of testing, which nobody seems to know exists, including in cases where other people have died from anaphylaxis to foods.

The testing exists. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7543114/

However, food allergy science is fairly inaccurate, with reactions trumping blood and skin tests. My daughter’s allergist, CHOP, so top in the nation, will not even test for particular food allergies unless there is a historical reaction. And everything is statistical based when looking at whether you are ready for a food challenge. So I’m sure the blood tests done post mortem are also not perfect.

 

[mkatsy]

The testing exists. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7543114/

However, food allergy science is fairly inaccurate, with reactions trumping blood and skin tests. My daughter’s allergist, CHOP, so top in the nation, will not even test for particular food allergies unless there is a historical reaction. And everything is statistical based when looking at whether you are ready for a food challenge. So I’m sure the blood tests done post mortem are also not perfect.

I’m going to try and say this as delicately as possible. When people are dead, you cut them open and look inside them for evidence of an allergic reaction. You don’t have to waste your time with food trials and questionnaires. There is an anaphylaxis autopsy criteria … nobody is reinventing the wheel here.

 

[mistysue]

I’m at a loss here. There are very clearly defined industry standards in molecular pathology and forensic pathology. They are accepted by subject matter experts. Nobody is going to give you a guarantee. I’m not sure what you’re looking for here. The pathologist made his determination, and the scientific literature supports it.

You said " If you look at the lab report..." so I asked what lab report.

The testing exists. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7543114/

However, food allergy science is fairly inaccurate, with reactions trumping blood and skin tests. My daughter’s allergist, CHOP, so top in the nation, will not even test for particular food allergies unless there is a historical reaction. And everything is statistical based when looking at whether you are ready for a food challenge. So I’m sure the blood tests done post mortem are also not perfect.

That report both opens and concludes saying there should be a way to implement an interdisciplinary approach. It doesn't seem to say they actually did so. They did allergen testing, which confirmed the known allergens, and found evidence that the person had celiac's, and found triptase levels that showed anaphylaxis, but NOT which food.
People keep saying they tested and found that this person had ingested ALL of her allergens. I'm questioning why everyone is saying that. It's in the news articles, but I don't see there is any test that shows which allergen any particular reaction is in response to.

 

[mkatsy]

You said " If you look at the lab report..." so I asked what lab report.


That report both opens and concludes saying there should be a way to implement an interdisciplinary approach. It doesn't seem to say they actually did so. They did allergen testing, which confirmed the known allergens, and found evidence that the person had celiac's, and found triptase levels that showed anaphylaxis, but NOT which food.
People keep saying they tested and found that this person had ingested ALL of her allergens. I'm questioning why everyone is saying that. It's in the news articles, but I don't see there is any test that shows which allergen any particular reaction is in response to.

I’m not comfortable naming the lab, you’ll need to find that yourself. The anaphylaxis autopsy biomarker protocol calls for ordering IgE levels on the person’s known allergens. This was done. Many of the levels were grossly elevated, which is indicative of exposure. Exposure does not mean you put it in your mouth and swallowed it. As you stated, the antigen can enter through a mucous membrane. If I recall correctly the antigens that produced an exposure level response were peanut, milk, and an assortment of nuts. This type of laboratory testing uses statistical confidence levels. You would have to pull the manufacturer’s package insert to know the exact criteria for the reagent used.

 

[mistysue]

I’m not comfortable naming the lab, you’ll need to find that yourself. The anaphylaxis autopsy biomarker protocol calls for ordering IgE levels on the person’s known allergens. This was done. Many of the levels were grossly elevated, which is indicative of exposure. Exposure does not mean you put it in your mouth and swallowed it. As you stated, the antigen can enter through a mucous membrane. If I recall correctly the antigens that produced an exposure level response were peanut, milk, and an assortment of nuts. This type of laboratory testing uses statistical confidence levels. You would have to pull the manufacturer’s package insert to know the exact criteria for the reagent used.

Ok, so a lab report that you have seen but that nobody else can see suggests that it can state what allergens got into her system. That's really neat if it's true because that has been an open mystery in every other food allergy death up to this point without testing the food itself. I'm just saying nobody else seems aware that that sort of testing exists, and all I've seen so far is that one link that said there should be a way to do this, but not that they actually did it. The ability to do that is something I've wished for for a LONG time, as it's annoying as heck to try tracing "what it could have been" with factories and supply sources.

I find it interesting if they were able to tell in this case, and that she somehow got basically everything she was allergic to all at the same time. If that's true, whatever happened wasn't by accident. You don't accidentally give someone (or eat) that many allergens at once unknowingly while actively avoiding them. This really should involve a server/chef/family member murder investigation in that case.

ETA- For years, my son was subjected to twice/yearly IgE testing. During that time, it was noted that he would have wildly erratic swings in IgE levels to various allergens. It would seem like they couldn't effectively tell if someone had an IgE specifically raised due to an exposure without having a very recent base level with which to compare it. Parents routinely ask in allergy groups what it means if their child's test goes up or down SO MUCH since the last test. If we're saying upped numbers are completely due to exposure every time, with so many allergens elevated it seems even more suspicious she may have been being slowly poisoned.

 

[mkatsy]

Ok, so a lab report that you have seen but that nobody else can see suggests that it can state what allergens got into her system. That's really neat if it's true because that has been an open mystery in every other food allergy death up to this point without testing the food itself. I'm just saying nobody else seems aware that that sort of testing exists, and all I've seen so far is that one link that said there should be a way to do this, but not that they actually did it. The ability to do that is something I've wished for for a LONG time, as it's annoying as heck to try tracing "what it could have been" with factories and supply sources.

I find it interesting if they were able to tell in this case, and that she somehow got basically everything she was allergic to all at the same time. If that's true, whatever happened wasn't by accident. You don't accidentally give someone (or eat) that many allergens at once unknowingly while actively avoiding them. This really should involve a server/chef/family member murder investigation in that case.

ETA- For years, my son was subjected to twice/yearly IgE testing. During that time, it was noted that he would have wildly erratic swings in IgE levels to various allergens. It would seem like they couldn't effectively tell if someone had an IgE specifically raised due to an exposure without having a very recent base level with which to compare it. Parents routinely ask in allergy groups what it means if their child's test goes up or down SO MUCH since the last test. If we're saying upped numbers are completely due to exposure every time, with so many allergens elevated it seems even more suspicious she may have been being slowly poisoned.

The lab report is available to anyone with internet access and the patience to go look for it. You stated that you called another lab and I’m not facilitating that. Leave these people alone. There is no report stating that she was served all of her antigens simultaneously. No one can prove when she was exposed. No one can prove which antigen(s) caused the anaphylaxis. Her husband is the one blaming Raglan Road. I would suggest you look at Reddit or Twitter where this same conversation is far less reserved.

 

[mistysue]

The lab report is available to anyone with internet access and the patience to go look for it. You stated that you called another lab and I’m not facilitating that. Leave these people alone. There is no report stating that she was served all of her antigens simultaneously. No one can prove when she was exposed. No one can prove which antigen(s) caused the anaphylaxis. Her husband is the one blaming Raglan Road. I would suggest you look at Reddit or Twitter where this same conversation is far less reserved.

I didn't call and ask about her. I called to ask how we can test to find out what a person is exposed to. The most we can do is test the food itself. I must not know what terms to use to get lab reports like this case and I'm not really wanting to dig into this specific person, that was not the point.

That right there- where you said they can't prove what caused anaphylaxis- was my whole question. People keep saying her blood work showed she was given all of those foods, and above you responded to me as if I'm a moron for questioning that they could tell she was reacting to so many at the same time. There is no test for that. They can test for anaphylaxis, and they can test for likelihood of future reactivity to any particular allergens, they can not test for what you reacted to. If someone wrote the report speculating she was given all of those allergens (which is what media is reporting) it involved a level of guesswork on their part.

 

[mkatsy]

Sept. 9th Disney filed an intent to subpoena Starbucks with the clerk of the court. There must be some pertinent information relevant to the doctor’s death that they want from them. I do find it interesting that Starbucks is located much closer in proximity to planet Hollywood than Raglan Road, but they may just be interested in video from their surveillance cameras. We’ll have to wait for Starbucks to be served, and then for their response to be recorded by the clerk, to get an idea of what this is about.

 

[HopperFan]

Sept. 9th Disney filed an intent to subpoena Starbucks with the clerk of the court. There must be some pertinent information relevant to the doctor’s death that they want from them. I do find it interesting that Starbucks is located much closer in proximity to planet Hollywood than Raglan Road, but they may just be interested in video from their surveillance cameras. We’ll have to wait for Starbucks to be served, and then for their response to be recorded by the clerk, to get an idea of what this is about.

I imagine they immediately would have tried to track all their movements through DS via cameras. If the woman and her mother continued to explore DS, then mother left and woman continued ... there is a great chance she consumed something else or was exposed somewhere, especially if toxicology reports showed more allergens in her system than is found in Raglan's kitchen.

Could the subpoena be for their register camera footage or records because there is some indication (maybe from general cameras) that she purchased something there? Def interesting.

 

[mkatsy]

I imagine they immediately would have tried to track all their movements through DS via cameras. If the woman and her mother continued to explore DS, then mother left and woman continued ... there is a great chance she consumed something else or was exposed somewhere, especially if toxicology reports showed more allergens in her system than is found in Raglan's kitchen.

Could the subpoena be for their register camera footage or records because there is some indication (maybe from general cameras) that she purchased something there? Def interesting.

The plaintiffs attorney notified the court yesterday that they want a copy of whatever Starbucks gives to Disney. Eventually it will appear in the court record, it’s just a slow process.

 

[HopperFan]

The plaintiffs attorney notified the court yesterday that they want a copy of whatever Starbucks gives to Disney. Eventually it will appear in the court record, it’s just a slow process.

I'm sure they do as it could be a blindside. Very interesting, keep us posted!!

 

[Lewisc]

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/02/nx-s1-5136615/uber-car-crash-lawsuit-uber-eats-arbitration-terms

Disney might have won the arbitration motion.

Uber won, on appeal, an outrageous enforcement of an Uber Eats arbitration "agreement " as a response to an Uber at fault traffic accident.

 

[RivShore]

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/02/nx-s1-5136615/uber-car-crash-lawsuit-uber-eats-arbitration-terms

Disney might have won the arbitration motion.

Uber won, on appeal, an outrageous enforcement of an Uber Eats arbitration "agreement " as a response to an Uber at fault traffic accident.

Disney already withdrew the D+ app arbitration argument with quite a mia culpa to go along with it, so no way they will bring it back. And the Uber app is at least directly related to a ride in an Uber unlike the D+ app and an incident a thousand miles away in an unrelated part of the business. That being said, I'm hating these arbitration clauses more and more, they really need some guardrails put around them.

 

[Lewisc]

And the Uber app is at least directly related to a ride in an Uber

The "agreement" was made on Uber Eats ( food delivery) but applied to a ride share traffic accident. Not related, JMO

The pop up agreement was made by a minor.