Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[DVC92]

Dean, are you suggesting that DVCMC managed to keep this a secret from DVD? If so, I'd agree. But I find that almost impossible to believe. And if DVD was aware, they had an obligation to disclose information that could materially impact buyer's ability to use the property.

DVD and DVC are only separate entities for legal purposes. In actuality, they are one and the same since Jim Lewis is the president of both.

 

[Dean]

I have calculated the difference in points for the two trips we take each year. Both have increased. Our Thanksgiving vacation has increased my 7 points and our October vacation has increased by 4 points. Can someone please give me an example of weeks where their points have decreased? Is it normally the slower weeks, like September/January? I am going to print of both 2009 & 2010 to compare myself.

Thanks!

Almost anyone who stays more weekdays than weekends will increase. Anyone who stays more weekends such as 9 days with 2 weekends or just long weekends, will decrease. The weekly decreases are mostly for GV during higher seasons. Most people for full weeks will be close to the same within a few points.

Dean, are you suggesting that DVCMC managed to keep this a secret from DVD? If so, I'd agree. But I find that almost impossible to believe. And if DVD was aware, they had an obligation to disclose information that could materially impact buyer's ability to use the property.

Secret, I doubt it as there is enough overlap in personnel to make that almost impossible. But I am suggesting it's not necessarily a free flow of timely information all along the way and it's likely the worker bees knew little if any about it. Likely the most many would have known was that it was being looked at. I also bet there was dissension from those involved mostly on the sales side for reasons expressed in this thread. As I stated before, I'm also confident the goal was to get it done before BLT went on sale and it may have been. But remember these things have to be submitted and approved by the state before they can be talked about to the members or prospective members. I don't think anyone argues the timing was poor for those who bought in recently, esp for BLT new buyers. Existing members should have known it was a risk, especially those who've been on this BBS for a while but they all should have known.

With all the folks posting how this has ruined their DVC, I wonder if any new owners will challenge Disney. I wouldn't be surprised if Disney quietly refunded the purchase for any late 2008 buyers who demanded it. (I also wouldn't be surprised if no one demands it, because this just won't be the deal breaker some folks suggest).

I can't see how this has ruined it for anyone other than possibly someone who bought a VERY small contract for a stay less than every year with only enough for S-F. IMO if a 20% change means DVC no longer makes sense for you, it NEVER made sense for you in the first place. The value may no longer be the same but the principles haven't changed. Plus those who saw that much change were getting the best per night value of anyone to start with, their price per night is still less than most members. I would agree that DVC is likely to be accommodating but there's only so much they can do. If the deed is already recorded, they may not be willing to do much. Remember there's a 10 day back out period that starts from the latest of when you sign he papers or you receive certain legal documents including the POS. IF you haven't received all these documents, the clock on the 10 day right to rescind is still ticking. I also agree it will blow over and most of those who are spouting will be fine in a year or two other than one very important and valuable lesson, read the rules and assume the worst.

 

[mybabesuz]

I have calculated the difference in points for the two trips we take each year. Both have increased. Our Thanksgiving vacation has increased my 7 points and our October vacation has increased by 4 points. Can someone please give me an example of weeks where their points have decreased? Is it normally the slower weeks, like September/January? I am going to print of both 2009 & 2010 to compare myself.

Thanks!

The Christmas Week Vacation that I just booked for 2009
would be 28 points less in 2010...

 

[NJ Mets fan]

This is another way they have messed up the system. Now instead of people being able to rely on and purchase points in round increments they've created these absurd weekly totals to deal with. (OK, I know 350 is not technically a "round" number but you know what I mean.) Most people will make their purchases in lots or contracts of 25, especially newcomers who don't realize they can buy an odd lot number of 352 if that's what they really want. So now people will probably round up from 350 to 375 to cover the 352. Another example - now 6 nights in either a 2 bedroom at SSR or a THV in the "Magic" season went from 248 to 259 points so before, 250 would cover it - now they would be short by 9 silly points. IMO that's just another SLICK sleazy move on DVC's part to sell a few more points as they figure people will round up from 250 to 275 in this case.

In my case I guess I am fairly lucky but that is because I just lucked out with my reasoning during my purchase decision. Originally I was going to buy a 350 resale contract to cover one week a year at BWV in the summer which is now 352 pts. I then decided to purchase a 200 pt contract which would cover any of the resorts including BLT every other year with a few points left over. Sure I would love to own 800 points like some on here but I have pending colleges to pay for and frankly don't want to spend every vacation at Disney even though we love it.
Although this may work out for some and may even work out in the future for me, I think it stinks.

 

[DisneyWalker44]

But remember these things have to be submitted and approved by the state before they can be talked about to the members or prospective members.

Why? What prevented DVD from telling potential customers that DVCMC has hired outside consultants to recommend changes to the point chart for 2010?

I would agree that DVC is likely to be accommodating but there's only so much they can do. If the deed is already recorded, they may not be willing to do much.

If Disney withheld "Material Facts" from buyers, they won't have a choice if pressed. At some point, point reallocation moved beyond theoretical possibility. Consultants were hired, etc. If a buyer can credibly show that information would have changed their buying decision and Disney withheld it, you don't think Disney will let them out of the deal?

 

[drusba]

Just to put to rest whether the company that makes point changes, DVCMC, would be aware of upcoming price or minimum add-on changes that would be made by the main company, DVD, the two companies share at least four officers, Jim Lewis (Pres), John McGowan (Secretary), Lawrence Smith (Treasurer), Thomas Katheder (VP and Asst Sect), and Marsha Reed (also a VP and Asst Sect). They both also have the same home office, 200 Celebration Place (in Celebration).

 

[Tiger926]

For example, at the BWV:

There are several weeks (7 nights) that are the same or less in 2010 than they were in 2009. I suspect this may be true at other resorts (I haven't looked because we stay almost exclusively at the BWV).

Long weekends (3-4 nights) will be less expensive in almost all unit types in 2010 than they were in 2009.


Again, I only really looked at the BWV chart, but I think the above are probably true for all the resorts with a few exceptions.

Most who stay 9 nights (two weekends) will find their trips less expensive in 2010 than in 2009.

I just wanted to clarify that this is not the case for all resorts, across the board. I kept reading this, as it seems like some people are assuming that the weekends decreases are going to be great for those of us who normally do weekends, so I finally did the calculations for AKV & BCV, and here is what I found:

For 9 nights in July 2009 (5 weekday & 4 weekends) @ AKV, it's more in 2010, but for BCV for 9 nights, it's less in 2010. It all depends upon the resort - but as you noted, perhaps this is the case for BWV and BCV across the board as those weekends were so high? I am now going to do the calculations for SSR as we actually own there, but we are staying at BCV this year instead with our usual AKV stay.

I, of course, am not good with math, and just did these calculations quickly as baby is asleep on my lap, so I'll have my hubby double check them when he returns home. It's very interesting to see how seemingly inconsistent, at first glance the re-allocations are across the board, so people really need to do their calculations to see exactly how it has affected them at their particular resorts.

This is such an informative thread! Tiger

 

[dianeschlicht]

Okay, so all of this point stuff hit the fan while I was down enjoying an AKV and OKW vacation. I haven't had a chance to look at the new point charts until now, and I must say, I don't understand what all the uproar is about. Sure, some nights in certain accommodations went up, some some others went down. In fact, it looks like MANY of the AKV point requirements either stayed the same or decreased. Same for OKW. In fact, many of them went down for our preferred dates. I never look at it as individual days though....I figure if a week stays the same or decreases, that's the important part.

Most of our stays of 10+ days wont be effected by more than a couple of points, and most of them are acually less.

I think everyone needs to just calm down and learn to use the new allocations. We all learned to use the higher weekend points to our advantage, so now we just have to learn to use the higher weekday points and other lower points the same way. I really don't see that it's that big a deal.

Of course, it IS a big deal for poor Bill who must now redo his planners!

 

[Kmango]

DVD and DVC are only separate entities for legal purposes. In actuality, they are one and the same since Jim Lewis is the president of both.

By that logic, Apple Computers and Pixar were one and the same before Disney bought the latter.

 

[drusba]

From what I have read, canceling the contract is pretty much the only remedy provided by Florida statute for claims of misleading sales tactics. Unless the Florida Timeshare Bureau or some other governing body finds that adjusting the BLT chart before any trends were established was improper, that seems like the only avenue available to disgruntled buyers. And I tend to agree that DVC may just void a handful of contracts rather than expend any more time and money on the issue.

Claims for concealing material information in a sale transaction can include statutory and common law claims in Florida, i.e., the statutory remedy does not preclude the buyer from also pursuing a common law claim for misrepresentation. The remedy can be, at the option of the party misled, either to rescind the agreement and get their money back, or confirm the agreement and seek damages for the difference in value between what was represented and what it would have been if the information had not been concealed. Also, for either option, if the seller is proven to have knowingly concealed material information, the buyer can seek punitive damages, which is often easier to get if you also show the seller misled numerous buyers rather than just you.

 

[BEACHCLUBVILLAS]

Owning at resorts without Grand Villas is certainly something to consider. WLV and BCV just increased in value.


If a resort has one Grand Villa with high points and the rest studios, 1BR and 2BR and they were to do a point reallocation, conceivably it could look like a legal reallocation. Are the the reallocations weighted? 100 points taken away from 1 grand villa to be spread among 10 2BR's is different than 100 points taken away from 5 GV to be spread among 10 2BRs.

 

[CarolMN]

I just wanted to clarify that this is not the case for all resorts, across the board. I kept reading this, as it seems like some people are assuming that the weekends decreases are going to be great for those of us who normally do weekends, so I finally did the calculations for AKV & BCV, and here is what I found:

For 9 nights in July 2009 (5 weekday & 4 weekends) @ AKV, it's more in 2010, but for BCV for 9 nights, it's less in 2010. It all depends upon the resort - but as you noted, perhaps this is the case for BWV and BCV across the board as those weekends were so high? I am now going to do the calculations for SSR as we actually own there, but we are staying at BCV this year instead with our usual AKV stay.

I, of course, am not good with math, and just did these calculations quickly as baby is asleep on my lap, so I'll have my hubby double check them when he returns home. It's very interesting to see how seemingly inconsistent, at first glance the re-allocations are across the board, so people really need to do their calculations to see exactly how it has affected them at their particular resorts.

This is such an informative thread! Tiger

Please note that I did not say all the weeks or all long weekends, etc. even for the BWV. My post was in response to someone who wanted to know which members might see a decrease under the new charts.

Even at the BWV, Magic season for a week in a 1 bedroom or a 2 bedroom went up 2 points per week for both SV & PV. However, a week in a GV or a week in a SV studio stayed the same and a week in a PV studio went down 2 points.

My point is that there are weeks that decreased under the new charts. I'm sure we can find weeks that decreased at every resort. Not all weeks, of course.

ITA that each family has to "do the math" to see how the re allocations impact their vacation pattern. Some will find the re allocations to their benefit and some will not. Most of the posts are from people who will have to pay more because they were taking advantage of the lower cost for week days. I am one of them.

 

[Tiger926]

Please note that I did not say all the weeks or all long weekends,etc.

However, even at the BWV, Magic season for a week in a 1 bedroom or a 2 bedroom went up 2 points per week for both SV & PV. However, a week in a GV or a week in a SV studio stayed the same and a week in a PV studio went down 2 points.

My point is that there are weeks that decreased. I'm sure we can find weeks that decreased at every resort. Not all, of course.

ITA that each family has to "do the math" to see how the re allocations impact their vacation pattern. Some will find the re allocations to their benefit and some will not.

Thanks - I didn't say you said all weeks, but I just wanted to clarify in case people are reading this quickly, and they might assume that was the case. I just wanted to add my actual calculations for the resorts we stay at as we always do split stays for between 10-12 nights in the summer. We have always been weekend DVC people, so I just wanted to add my perspective to the discussion that for us weekend people, our vacations totals will not all be at a decrease level, as it depends upon the resort and the season, as you pointed out.

Tiger

 

[Chuck S]

Why? What prevented DVD from telling potential customers that DVCMC has hired outside consultants to recommend changes to the point chart for 2010?

If Disney withheld "Material Facts" from buyers, they won't have a choice if pressed. At some point, point reallocation moved beyond theoretical possibility. Consultants were hired, etc. If a buyer can credibly show that information would have changed their buying decision and Disney withheld it, you don't think Disney will let them out of the deal?

I don't see that they withheld "material facts" as the possibility of a re-allocation has always been clearly spelled out in our documents. As far as not disclosing the current re-allocation earlier, you would need to somehow prove just "when" DVCMC decided to go ahead with the change in points, as I would guess that there are several possible (maybe every possible) point re-allocation charts that have been filed away at Disney since OKW opened that they will pull put and use depending on changing demand.

 

[La2kw]

I am very happy that DVC made the change. The Sun to Thurs people were wrecking the system. Timeshares are to benefit everyone. They should make the points equal for all days. I called DVC and told them to do that in the future to stop all these people from screwing up the system.

DVC did the right thing and I have no sympathy for the 5 day renters.

Are you referring to members or renters?

If you are referring to members, then why are you blaming them for using their membership the way it is allowed? One of DVC's major selling points was that it wasn't like other run of the mill timeshares where you had to use the same week every year. It was more flexible. A member using their points for Sun-Thurs is perfectly within reason, and still is. Just as a member using their points for a weekend stay or even a one night stay.

These latest "member enhancements" move it towards the rest of the run of the mill timeshares IMO.

 

[DisneyWalker44]

I don't see that they withheld "material facts" as the possibility of a re-allocation has always been clearly spelled out in our documents. As far as not disclosing the current re-allocation earlier, you would need to somehow prove just "when" DVCMC decided to go ahead with the change in points, as I would guess that there are several possible (maybe every possible) point re-allocation charts that have been filed away at Disney since OKW opened that they will pull put and use depending on changing demand.

You don't have to prove when the final decision was made. You just have to show there were undisclosed material facts. At some point, reallocation moved beyond a possibility. For one thing, Disney hired an outside consultant to review and help with the reallocation. That hiring, if knowledge of it would have affected a buyers decision, is a material fact.

 

[La2kw]

Okay, so all of this point stuff hit the fan while I was down enjoying an AKV and OKW vacation. I haven't had a chance to look at the new point charts until now, and I must say, I don't understand what all the uproar is about. Sure, some nights in certain accommodations went up, some some others went down. In fact, it looks like MANY of the AKV point requirements either stayed the same or decreased. Same for OKW. In fact, many of them went down for our preferred dates. I never look at it as individual days though....I figure if a week stays the same or decreases, that's the important part.

Most of our stays of 10+ days wont be effected by more than a couple of points, and most of them are acually less.

I think everyone needs to just calm down and learn to use the new allocations. We all learned to use the higher weekend points to our advantage, so now we just have to learn to use the higher weekday points and other lower points the same way. I really don't see that it's that big a deal.

Of course, it IS a big deal for poor Bill who must now redo his planners!

The big deal for me is that I live on the west coast and can't fly down to WDW for a long weekend. I go for at least two weeks. I no longer have enough points to do the same trip I have been doing for the past 13 years. Not a big deal to some, but for my family it is.

 

[starbox]

I would not be surprised to see the seasons change - as summer travellers - there is always plenty of availiability in May/June/July while the value weeks (Jan, early December, October/November) are really popular with DVC owners. I would not be surprised at ALL to see summer points decrease and "value" seasons increase.

 

[figment795]

I am very happy that DVC made the change. The Sun to Thurs people were wrecking the system. Timeshares are to benefit everyone. They should make the points equal for all days. I called DVC and told them to do that in the future to stop all these people from screwing up the system.

DVC did the right thing and I have no sympathy for the 5 day renters.

Ouch that was harsh. There are a great deal fo 5 day renters that were trying to save points since the weekend had been highter points.

 

[figment795]

The big deal for me is that I live on the west coast and can't fly down to WDW for a long weekend. I go for at least two weeks. I no longer have enough points to do the same trip I have been doing for the past 13 years. Not a big deal to some, but for my family it is.

DH and I live in Oregon so we understand your situation. Sure we might get a quick weekend in if airfare is good. But you loose 8 hrs of the day getting to Orlando. It is a big deal for us as well. We have a good number of points however now it might not be it our benifit to do an AP each year.