Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[Dean]

The people who should be really upset are the HH and Vero owners who purchased points to use at those resorts. Their savings has shrunk dramatically over the rack rates. With MF going up higher than the rack rates at these resorts recently you wonder how long it will be before it is not worth it to own at these resorts. If you divide the rack rate by the number of points most WDW resorts points value are the high twenties to thirties. If you do the same calculation at Vero and HH there are some point values in the low teens.

Hopefully both groups bought with the intent of staying there part of the time AND/OR the knowledge that it was a gamble PLUS this risk being discussed here. HH has always been a major gamble due to the seasonal nature of the area and the dues risk. Even when the dues were lower, you knew it couldn't last for a small resort in a high risk area. At least with VB you knew up front the dues were high but likely going higher. Still, it looks like the changes were about as small for HH as they could have been given this type of reallocation.

 

[Dean]

I should have said "people who have typically stayed Sun-Thurs are now going to stay less # of nights as often, or less often with the same # nights. They are not suddenly going to stay Sun -Thurs and say "wow, those weekend points are less, so let's stay those nights too!" unless they had extra points to spare before. The # of nights meaning that now they might include a weekend night.

Simple math dictates if you had exactly the number of points and the cost for your stays went up, you won't have enough to stay on points for the number of days you did before. Your choices then become to stay less days, make different choices of time of year or unit size, or to buy more points. Of course you could just get disgusted and sell what you have and it's likely some will do just that.

By changing these points, DVC has increased the cost for my stays and they already had my money and continue to get it every year when I pay my dues.

You say this like there's something wrong with it. It's the way the system, and timeshares in general, work. Things change and you likely haven't seen the last change you won't like. Hopefully you'll see others that you will. There's no requirement for one to continue to pay fees, you do have the option of selling or just stop paying the dues.

 

[littlestar]

I am very happy that DVC made the change. The Sun to Thurs people were wrecking the system. Timeshares are to benefit everyone. They should make the points equal for all days. I called DVC and told them to do that in the future to stop all these people from screwing up the system.

DVC did the right thing and I have no sympathy for the 5 day renters.

I wouldn't want the weekends even with all days. I'd be afraid the people within driving distance would book up the weekends and I'd never be able to get a full 7 day stay having to fly in from out of state. We were at Saratoga a few weeks ago and there was a noticeable difference in crowds on the weekends. By Monday night, it was quiet again and we had our choice of parking spaces in the parking lot.

I do think they needed to adjust the points, I just wish they would have gave more notice to the membership. And I feel sorry for the BLT buyers who are now short on points because those 2010 point chart adjustments weren't disclosed to them when they bought. I guess I just expected more from Disney than that.

 

[DisneyWalker44]

Let me put it this way, the wise thing for DVC to have done would have been to redistribute the weekly points but kept the weekly totals the same.

If all you are upset about are the minor 1-4 point change many weeks have, I think you've gone way off base. In the long run, that will be a total non issue. Since there are 5 weekdays and 2 weekends in a week, it's hard to do a fair rebalancing that ends up with the exact same number of points.

They should also have announced this change the end of last year when BLT started selling.

At a minimum, they should have announced that they were engaged in serious consideration to change the charts. That's a piece of information every new buyer should have had.

Leaving BLT owners hanging out to dry with that bogus 100 pt minimum add-on screams unethical.

Every BLT owner can borrow a couple points if they are short due to the reallocation. Nobody is hanging out to dry.

 

[MELSMICE]

I am very happy that DVC made the change. The Sun to Thurs people were wrecking the system. Timeshares are to benefit everyone. They should make the points equal for all days. I called DVC and told them to do that in the future to stop all these people from screwing up the system.

DVC did the right thing and I have no sympathy for the 5 day renters.

One of the reasons we loved DVC was because it was flexible & nothing like a timehsare "outside" the world. You can rent from one day to as many days as you want. With most other timeshares you are stuck from a Saturday through Saturday without room for flexibility.

 

[dcfromva]

HH has always been a major gamble due to the seasonal nature of the area and the dues risk.

This is one resort that I could never figure out. We have visited in late Jan... It was cold and the resort seemed pretty deserted. I have wondered how that works. I assume that Disney sold 12 months worth of points--is it 100% full 12 months out of the year?

 

[dcfromva]

At a minimum, they should have announced that they were engaged in serious consideration to change the charts. That's a piece of information every new buyer should have had.

 

[photobob]

I am very happy that DVC made the change. The Sun to Thurs people were wrecking the system. Timeshares are to benefit everyone. They should make the points equal for all days. I called DVC and told them to do that in the future to stop all these people from screwing up the system.

DVC did the right thing and I have no sympathy for the 5 day renters.

Don't hold back, tell us what you really think!

 

[LVSWL]

I am very happy that DVC made the change. The Sun to Thurs people were wrecking the system. Timeshares are to benefit everyone. They should make the points equal for all days. I called DVC and told them to do that in the future to stop all these people from screwing up the system.

DVC did the right thing and I have no sympathy for the 5 day renters.

Wow!

 

[Dean]

One of the reasons we loved DVC was because it was flexible & nothing like a timehsare "outside" the world. You can rent from one day to as many days as you want. With most other timeshares you are stuck from a Saturday through Saturday without room for flexibility.

Even with maximum reallocation this would still currently be true. That may change in the future if they were to institute a minimum stay or similar approach. I'd quibble with the idea that most other timeshares have no flexibility at all. Many are very flexible, often more flexible than DVC in many ways, but there are those that are fixed week and fixed unit and they have their place as well. There really is no such thing as a traditional timeshare anymore.

This is one resort that I could never figure out. We have visited in late Jan... It was cold and the resort seemed pretty deserted. I have wondered how that works. I assume that Disney sold 12 months worth of points--is it 100% full 12 months out of the year?

The concept is easy in many aspects. MOST points systems sell points essentially where every points is a high demand point, or at least a point for the time & resort they want to visit, in the eyes of the buyer. This works fairly well for an area like Aruba, HI or Orlando where there is a certain amount of reasonable demand all year long. For seasonal places like HH, MB, Williamsburg and the like, the process really breaks down. This is not simply true for HH but for all timeshares in the area. It's actually a bigger problem for full week timeshares because in most instances the dues are the same (or very close) all year around but the value is different. One could stay about 3.5 months of the year at DVC or a top Marriott in HH for a fraction of the maintenance fees. I know I could do it for around $300-350 a week including exchange fees. When you consider that includes utilities and the like, it's not much more cost than sitting home. That's the dilemma that those who have a condo or home in a seasonal area that is high demand part of the year. If you rent it out, the time when most people want to go is the best time to get rental income. I have a friend who owns a 2 BR condo in Keystone and he times his trips for the time when he can go but the rental income is less.

Owners of the HI Marriott's have been struggling with this issue. Even though there is a certain amount of demand even "off season", it's still quite a bit different. Marriott has made either 50 or 51 weeks Platinum for the resorts there so there is quite a bit of competition for the better weeks. Xmas and NY are the weeks that are normally carved out. The end result when you consider that Marriott gives a reservation advantage to multiple week owners in their system is that for a single week owner it's almost impossible to get the best weeks there like Feb, March, early to mid April and mid June to mid August.

 

[Dean]

At a minimum, they should have announced that they were engaged in serious consideration to change the charts. That's a piece of information every new buyer should have had.

While it might have been the courteous thing to do, it would have been a STUPID business decision. Remember these are also two different entities even if there is a lot of cross communication and some personnel overlap. I would bet you my house and cars that in most of the communications they had about this change there were reminders NOT to leak the info. Had anyone done so it would certainly have been grounds for dismissal. Think of it like the new car line and how secretive they are until the trade shows for the unveiling.

 

[Pootle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that means that you either had more points than you needed for Sun-Thurs stays before the point change and are now going to use them to stay 6 or 7 nights now or, if you are like me, you will be forfeiting another night of the week for that weekend night and/or banking and borrowing to add that weekend night(s), but still staying 4 or 5 nights in total.

My vacationing habits vary from year to year and I just work with whatever points I have, simple as that. I know if I were to go back and look at my point use over the last 13 years and recalculate using the new charts (which I'm not going to do, LOL) I would definitely be in negative territory with the new adjustments, but I can see the need and logic for this change and so I will just adapt quite happily.

 

[BlakeNJ]

I have calculated the difference in points for the two trips we take each year. Both have increased. Our Thanksgiving vacation has increased my 7 points and our October vacation has increased by 4 points. Can someone please give me an example of weeks where their points have decreased? Is it normally the slower weeks, like September/January? I am going to print of both 2009 & 2010 to compare myself.

Thanks!

 

[BEACHCLUBVILLAS]

I'm feeling vulnerable due to the possibility of future redistribution of points and wondering if anyone else is as well. We all know that Disney can redistribute the points anytime they want. We all know to take from one day they have to give to another so the total points don't change. We also know they will do it and it can be substantial. Ok, fine.

How substantial? I've studied the possiblibilities. Resorts with Grand Villas are most at risk. The points to stay in one are very high. That gives them a lot of leeway. Where we have been sold on being able to lock in vacations at today's costs/points 40 years from now isn't correct. Increases in maintenance fees per point aside, I don't know if I'll ever use a grand villa but I do know that if you take 100 points out of a grand villa in one season and redistribute those points to studio, 1br or 2br, you wil see significant cost increases. And it's all within the rights of Disney to do so to "benefit members" of course. The maintenance fees per point increases every year. The number of points it takes to stay in the more popular room choices per resort per night increase. That's a price increase. And the possibilities are limitless.

I never looked at it this way but I think 40 years from now, the point charts will look nothing like they do today. And the points you own today will not go as far in 40 years as they do today unless you planned to use them on grand villas. Then, it might be a deal.

 

[DisneyWalker44]

While it might have been the courteous thing to do, it would have been a STUPID business decision. Remember these are also two different entities even if there is a lot of cross communication and some personnel overlap. I would bet you my house and cars that in most of the communications they had about this change there were reminders NOT to leak the info. Had anyone done so it would certainly have been grounds for dismissal. Think of it like the new car line and how secretive they are until the trade shows for the unveiling.

Dean, are you suggesting that DVCMC managed to keep this a secret from DVD? If so, I'd agree. But I find that almost impossible to believe. And if DVD was aware, they had an obligation to disclose information that could materially impact buyer's ability to use the property.

With all the folks posting how this has ruined their DVC, I wonder if any new owners will challenge Disney. I wouldn't be surprised if Disney quietly refunded the purchase for any late 2008 buyers who demanded it. (I also wouldn't be surprised if no one demands it, because this just won't be the deal breaker some folks suggest).

 

[dcfromva]

I'm feeling vulnerable due to the possibility of future redistribution of points and wondering if anyone else is as well. We all know that Disney can redistribute the points anytime they want. We all know to take from one day they have to give to another so the total points don't change. We also know they will do it and it can be substantial. Ok, fine.

How substantial? I've studied the possiblibilities. Resorts with Grand Villas are most at risk. The points to stay in one are very high. That gives them a lot of leeway. Where we have been sold on being able to lock in vacations at today's costs/points 40 years from now isn't correct. Increases in maintenance fees per point aside, I don't know if I'll ever use a grand villa but I do know that if you take 100 points out of a grand villa in one season and redistribute those points to studio, 1br or 2br, you wil see significant cost increases. And it's all within the rights of Disney to do so to "benefit members" of course. The maintenance fees per point increases every year. The number of points it takes to stay in the more popular room choices per resort per night increase. That's a price increase. And the possibilities are limitless.

I never looked at it this way but I think 40 years from now, the point charts will look nothing like they do today. And the points you own today will not go as far in 40 years as they do today unless you planned to use them on grand villas. Then, it might be a deal.

Maybe an advantage to own at BCV where there are no GV from which to redistribute the points, eh?...

 

[CarolMN]

I have calculated the difference in points for the two trips we take each year. Both have increased. Our Thanksgiving vacation has increased my 7 points and our October vacation has increased by 4 points. Can someone please give me an example of weeks where their points have decreased? Is it normally the slower weeks, like September/January? I am going to print of both 2009 & 2010 to compare myself.

Thanks!

For example, at the BWV:

There are several weeks (7 nights) that are the same or less in 2010 than they were in 2009. I suspect this may be true at other resorts (I haven't looked because we stay almost exclusively at the BWV).

Long weekends (3-4 nights) will be less expensive in almost all unit types in 2010 than they were in 2009.

Most who stay 9 nights (two weekends) will find their trips less expensive in 2010 than in 2009.

Again, I only really looked at the BWV chart, but I think the above are probably true for all the resorts with a few exceptions.

 

[Anal Annie]

they could raise the number of points for a full week in magic season at the Boardwalk from 350 to 352 points in 2010. I came pretty close to buying 350 points so I could go every year during this season. I thought they could not change the point charts. I guess technically I could have kept borrowing the extra 2 points each year but what keeps them from raising the number of points even more??? I'm a new member so maybe there is something I'm not aware of.

This is another way they have messed up the system. Now instead of people being able to rely on and purchase points in round increments they've created these absurd weekly totals to deal with. (OK, I know 350 is not technically a "round" number but you know what I mean.) Most people will make their purchases in lots or contracts of 25, especially newcomers who don't realize they can buy an odd lot number of 352 if that's what they really want. So now people will probably round up from 350 to 375 to cover the 352. Another example - now 6 nights in either a 2 bedroom at SSR or a THV in the "Magic" season went from 248 to 259 points so before, 250 would cover it - now they would be short by 9 silly points. IMO that's just another SLICK sleazy move on DVC's part to sell a few more points as they figure people will round up from 250 to 275 in this case.

 

[tjkraz]

Can someone please give me an example of weeks where their points have decreased?

There are many examples of situations where the weekly rates have both increased and decreased by single digits. Put the charts side-by-side and they are very easy to identify.

With all the folks posting how this has ruined their DVC, I wonder if any new owners will challenge Disney. I wouldn't be surprised if Disney quietly refunded the purchase for any late 2008 buyers who demanded it. (I also wouldn't be surprised if no one demands it, because this just won't be the deal breaker some folks suggest).

From what I have read, canceling the contract is pretty much the only remedy provided by Florida statute for claims of misleading sales tactics. Unless the Florida Timeshare Bureau or some other governing body finds that adjusting the BLT chart before any trends were established was improper, that seems like the only avenue available to disgruntled buyers. And I tend to agree that DVC may just void a handful of contracts rather than expend any more time and money on the issue.

Most people will make their purchases in lots or contracts of 25, especially newcomers who don't realize they can buy an odd lot number of 352 if that's what they really want.

 

[aurorafan]

I agree, Chuck and I expressed this to my Guide during our December visit. My suggestion was similar to, if not exactly the same as yours.

Simple.

Home resort: add-ons of 25, 50+ allowed
Non-Home resorts: Add-ons of only 100+ allowed

I could even argue that add-ons for non-home resorts be set to the minimum buy-in to DVC at the time. I wouldn't like it but it would make sense.

They're almost certainly going to have to allow 25 point add-ons to current BLT owners given the changes to the charts for 2010. Surely.

The bolded above seems like a logical answer to the problem to me. It fixes the problem for everyone concerned (DVC and owners) IMHO.

This seems like a good change for the system as a whole. I think owners should be allowed the smaller add-ons at their home resort, but if I want to buy at BCV (which I do ), make me buy 100 pts. so I'm more likely to go every year or for longer stays every other year. Honestly I like that right now I could get a smaller contract and B&B, but I do see where it's better for the system to make the add-on larger. I do think as a current owner I shouldn't be made to buy at the current Disney buy-in level however, but that's more of an emotional feeling than a logical "what's best for the system" one .