Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[Inkmahm]

When I purchased BCV I bought 252 points for 1 week stay and was told it could never go up,only minor date changes.Now it will be 254 points for 1 week.It seems that they are doing something illegal..unless they give me 2 free points a year.The way the dues are going up its almost not worth it anymore might have to dump my points on the next sucker.

Did you read any of the 83 pages of this thread? We've been discussing that vary topic in detail for about 50 of those pages.

Solution for you: Borrow 2 points each year, progressively. With 252 points, it will take you 126 years before you'll have a problem booking your same vacation as before.

Year one borrow 2 points. Year two borrow 4 points. Year 3 borrow 6 points. And on and on and on. You'll be dead before you run out of points.

 

[PeteNCathy]

The point is not how to do it but why should I have to "borrow" my own points to pay for a vacation that I was told would ALWAYS cost me 252 points.And No I didn't read all 83 pages of posts ..I didn't know it was required.

 

[LIFERBABE]

The point is not how to do it but why should I have to "borrow" my own points to pay for a vacation that I was told would ALWAYS cost me 252 points.And No I didn't read all 83 pages of posts ..I didn't know it was required.

Agreed! Its a discussion board, not a job!

I agree, why should one be forced to borrow as a solution. Totally unsat!

Brogan, I also agree with much of what you posted. I believe SSR went up because it will be used as a point burner. SSR is the last to fill due to its size. Those that plan later or need to use expiring, holding points are being penalized because they will be forced to use their points at SSR. With the increases, they will get less SSR for the points. If DVC can use SSR to burn off those points instead of being a point saver, there are less points in the system.

I love SSR, but they are making us pay to help them balance out the smaller size of the other resorts. It's like a point incinerator.

My stance is, what DVC did to the BLT owners was shady and underhanded, bordering on fraud, because they did not negotiate with us in good faith. They knew what they knew and withheld that information until they could benefit even more from it. How do you announce the point min increase without disclosing the fact that you are "actively" adjusting the point charts?

 

[BroganMc]

The point is not how to do it but why should I have to "borrow" my own points to pay for a vacation that I was told would ALWAYS cost me 252 points.And No I didn't read all 83 pages of posts ..I didn't know it was required.

Don't sweat it. I've been following this thread for 3 days and even I haven't been able to fully digest all of it. It's a bit of a stew around here. Lots of analysis, viewpoints and suggestions floating about.

Bottomline is, none of us really understand exactly the math used to make these adjustments. There is language in our contracts to allow for point allocation. There's also some lively debate an analysis as to whether DVC has followed its own contract limitations. And there's a lot of opinion about how fair they dealt with new and prospective buyers in the last 4 months, certainly the last month.

I called my Guide earlier this month to add-on at BLT. Never was I informed their might be a point increase on the horizon. It seems the Guides were as clueless as we were.

And Member Services has been inundated with phone calls and e-mails concerning this issue. If you wish to voice your concern, then call or e-mail DVCMemberSatisfactionTeam@dvcmember.com. Stay tuned to see how it unfolds.

Meanwhile you'll find some on the boards who have concentrated more on how to handle the change while others are still questioning its legitimacy. The former strategy allows you to concentrate on planning your future vacations; the latter has you obsessing over contracts, mathematical equations and lawsuits. You have to decide which is the better thing to let occupy your mind.

 

[BroganMc]

Brogan, I also agree with much of what you posted. I believe SSR went up because it will be used as a point burner. SSR is the last to fill due to its size. Those that plan later or need to use expiring, holding points are being penalized because they will be forced to use their points at SSR. With the increases, they will get less SSR for the points. If DVC can use SSR to burn off those points instead of being a point saver, there are less points in the system.

Before I get into the whys, I still need to establish the whats. Like I've said before my point math doesn't seem to support a balanced chart. But then I may be wrong and need to get an explanation from management about how they calculated.

I just didn't expect to see weekly rates changed, or if changed then swapped in other seasons. The Choice increase for studios has me the most flummoxed. (An increase of 8 points per week.)

But it looks like VWL owners have just as big a beef. For them it's the 1bedrooms that fluctuated wildly in Adventure and Choice. (An increase of 6 points per week.)

Most other resorts saw changes of only 1-3 points.

There is another way to look at this. Perhaps DVC has given up more of its point ownership at SSR with the new THV sales and that's where these extra points are coming from. Yet more owners competing for rooms with less developer points available for incentives. Maybe on the bright side we'll see fewer Free Dining Plan upgrades to studios and 1bedrooms.

No matter what I grumble, I still love SSR best. This just means I'll be shaving a weekday off my May stays to better afford October.

 

[bookwormde]

This is the best that I can do to explain the difference between contract law and regulatory law. If the regulatory law says that the seller will make no misrepresentations in comparison to the written documents. The seller cannot have the buyer “sign away” the seller’s regulatory responsibility in this area buy the verbal representation waiver clause. The sales practices that said one thing and had the written document say something else were the exact reason the regulation was put in place and is “outside” and separate from the actual contract. Again a individual can not waive for a seller the regulatory requirements of the government. Even if the individual read and understood the possibility of changes in the contract the verbal misrepresentation of the contract is still a regulatory violation.

No I am not an attorney but am well read and familiar with the concepts of contract law from my business and regulatory law from my disabilities advocacy.

bookwormde

 

[bookwormde]

This is much more restrictive on DVC than any of the Other POS statements I have seen, once a change is made they are going to have to change the allocations each year due to the variance in the total number of weekends and the season they are in since this clearly states that the points for each calendar year (which are variable) can not change. I think they have made themselves quite a nightmare.

“The total number of Vacation points required to use all Vacation Homes during each calendar year through January 31, 2060 can never increase.
-If Vacation Points for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease on another night or nights.
- Reallocation cannot exceed 20% per calendar year, except under limited circumstances.”

bookwormde

 

[MiaSRN62]

When I purchased BCV I bought 252 points for 1 week stay and was told it could never go up,only minor date changes.Now it will be 254 points for 1 week.It seems that they are doing something illegal..
No I didn't read all 83 pages of posts ..I didn't know it was required.

Welcome PeteNCathy to the DIS.

And no, you don't have to read this whole thread---though there is some very helpful information in and among the pages. Some of it is just too technical for me, but I've been able to digest and process some of it and every day I "get" a little more.

You will see some harshness and unfair judging here too from certain posters, so please just let it roll off your back. I know I was eventually able to do that. But the past 3 days have been a real shock to the system---and dealing with my own emotions at the drastic change in my Membership in addition to dealing with snide comments from some posters---let's just say, it's been a rough few days on the DIS for me. I know others are feeling this way too because you can tell by the tone of their posts. But some here feel no emotions should be involved in this issue and that's just not me.

You are 2 points short and would do best to just continuously borrow. Unfortunately, it's either that, drop a day from your vacation or downsize you accomodations (if that's even possible). Some suggested visiting in lower point seasons---but again, despite being a choice according to some---it, in realty is not. If it's any consolation, some of us are many more points short over 1 or 2 or even 10 and are having to drop days or downsize accomodations because borrowing is just out of the question due to a deficit of too many points. And unfortunately, this is all not illegal. Though it's looking like with the BLT folks it might be----and I'm still miffed as a recent Kidani owner since my resort has not yet opened either and I purchased an addon within the past 90 days or so.

But if you're able to understand some of the more technical/analytical info here, look for posts by Dean, Tjkraz, bookwormd and several others. The emotions you're going through are a totally normal process though some here will call you out on "why" you're so upset and accuse you of things that just have no place on this thread. Just skip over their posts and go to the meat and potato posts for some very good DVC /timeshare lessons.

So feel free to vent like alot of us....brainstorm for ways to make this work or whatever. Sorry a thread containing such disappointing news such as this one is for alot of is, was your first time posting. This allocation is just alot for some of us to chew.....but is pretty much spelled out as something DVC reserves the right to do in the smaller print. Alot of us were given somewhat misleading info by guides or DVC promo material when we purchased. I know I was informed 8.5 years ago the points could move around "a little". Never would I have imagined a 30 point deficit for booking our vacations in 2010 and beyond essentially overnight. And some say DVC could be pushing for longer stays. I find even more offense with that, because I am sure I can pull up some DVC promo videos and such that flat out say, "use your points for as little as one night" and which also tout Membership as being so flexible........but I guess there is some fine print buried somewhere deep down about that too........so hang in there PeteNCathy.............

 

[bookwormde]

I would open up a new thread but it sound like we are to keep all allocation discussions here.

There has been talk about future changes, here are my thoughts.

I do not think DVC will limit the length of stays, maybe this is wishful thinking since I like to move around a lot and 2 or 3 day stay are my “norm”. This would also be counterproductive to the goal of high occupancy rates since you end up with stranded days unless they go to the sat to sat model.

Since some points moved the “maximum” I see additional point changes in general.

If the goal is to “balance demand” these are also items which I see changing; a much more dramatic rise in AKV concierge point requirements and some additional rises in savanna view. Changing Presidents weekend and the 3 days around Thanksgiving to Premier, event driven changes such as moving F&W at BCV and BWV to a higher season, moving the beginning of December to Choice season raising seasons at “Christmas decoration” time at VWL and so forth. Of course this will reduce points on average for other times.

bookwormde

 

[toocherie]

Agreed! Its a discussion board, not a job!

I agree, why should one be forced to borrow as a solution. Totally unsat!

Brogan, I also agree with much of what you posted. I believe SSR went up because it will be used as a point burner. SSR is the last to fill due to its size. Those that plan later or need to use expiring, holding points are being penalized because they will be forced to use their points at SSR. With the increases, they will get less SSR for the points. If DVC can use SSR to burn off those points instead of being a point saver, there are less points in the system.

Are you meaning that people will more likely go (and use more points) in the higher seasons, thereby reducing overall point inventory that could be used at the other resorts? Because otherwise the overall number of points for the resort haven't gone up (putting Brogan's questions aside for the moment) so overall there could not be an increased use of points?

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I don't think I've seen this mentioned...

In the category: Stupid Business Moves

You would have thought they would have released the BLT charts in October like they are now. There would be a lot less for us BLT owners to gripe about had they done that. It wouldn't have deviated from the norm enough to catch anyone's attention probably since we had no existing standard for BLT anyway.

Doesn't this sort of go against the thinking that this was a well thought out and executed plan to change the charts? It almost makes it sound like somebody got a hair up 3 weeks ago and just decided (after a few drinks), "Hey ya'll. Watch them squirm when we do this."

The same thing could be said for AKV but at least that one's been on sale for so long that those sales may have actually begun before the conspiracy started. I got screwed on that one too.

I'm 2 for 2. My charts are changing all over the place and neither of my home resorts is even open yet. Ain't it great!!!

 

[toocherie]

Actually, I agree with you wilson. Both this and the studio glassware issue seem to me more reactionary than well-thought out moves. Ditto for the waitlist issue. I'm sure there have been many many multi-person meetings over the last few weeks "tweaking" the charts, but I don't think this is a long-term strategy move. I think someone identified a problem (there have been many possible scenarios discussed in this thread) and they said--"here's the fix." And I think that partly because I agree with Brogan that I think the guides were clueless about the reallocation until recently. God knows you wouldn't want to include your front-line troops in any decision that might affect how they market your product.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Conspiracy theory.. Don't you love it!

But had the BLT charts not changed when all the others did, all members would have had a legitimate argument that "They knew all this when the minimum add-on for BLT was headed to a deadline to be raised to 100 and intentionally released them afterwards."

I'm pretty sure that argument would stick anyway but it does make for interesting discussion.

 

[jodifla]

I was at WDW when this news broke out! I'm so sorry to hear that it will affect some people so negatively.

For us, we do all sorts of different unit sizes, lengths of stays and DVC clubs, so I'll be able to adjust.

It was the 4 month rule that really screwed me over! I'm still angry about that.

The problem is, DVC wants you to make a commitment for 50 years, then tinkers enough with the details that it's tough to have made the RIGHT commitment.

 

[Inkmahm]

The point is not how to do it but why should I have to "borrow" my own points to pay for a vacation that I was told would ALWAYS cost me 252 points.And No I didn't read all 83 pages of posts ..I didn't know it was required.

What you were "told" is in the written paperwork that you signed when you bought your DVC points. As has been discussed for page after page after page. You were "told" that points could be reallocated. And guess what? They were!

I can understand the person who needs an additional 30 points being somewhat upset with the new charts. But 2 points so you need 254 instead of 252? Like I said, borrow 2 points more each year, keep your same vacation you've always had, and you'll be dead before you run out of points to borrow in 126 years.

 

[Starr W.]

I would open up a new thread but it sound like we are to keep all allocation discussions here.

There has been talk about future changes, here are my thoughts.

I do not think DVC will limit the length of stays, maybe this is wishful thinking since I like to move around a lot and 2 or 3 day stay are my “norm”. This would also be counterproductive to the goal of high occupancy rates since you end up with stranded days unless they go to the sat to sat model.

Since some points moved the “maximum” I see additional point changes in general.

If the goal is to “balance demand” these are also items which I see changing; a much more dramatic rise in AKV concierge point requirements and some additional rises in savanna view. Changing Presidents weekend and the 3 days around Thanksgiving to Premier, event driven changes such as moving F&W at BCV and BWV to a higher season, moving the beginning of December to Choice season raising seasons at “Christmas decoration” time at VWL and so forth. Of course this will reduce points on average for other times.

bookwormde

Like you I thought when reallocation came, that early December would move from Adventure to Choice season for all resorts.

Now I don't know if they can up point requirments for onsite resorts for a certain time period(VWL for Xmas decorations, BCV/BWV for F&W). From a standpoint of MS and the owners I could see that being a bit .
As you know how many new owners come on here clueless about the 1st 2 weeks of December or October at the Epcot resorts. Not every owner is totally up on the various park events and how they can drive DVC resort demand.

 

[tjkraz]

So this makes me pause on two accounts. First, how can there be a demonstrated "seasonal demand" to warrant such change when the resort isn't even open for occupancy yet. (How do we know more people won't be staying weekends, in 1bedrooms or using Grand Villas? Heck, how do we know there won't be a greater demand for Standard View rooms over Magic Kingdom View, or Lake View over all of them? There have been absolutely NO bookings yet.)

There may be some weight to that argument. However, as I posted a couple of pages ago, even getting a 1-2 year reprieve may not benefit BLT owners in the long run.

It appears DVC made very minor adjustments to BLT. The first charts were guesswork and the second set is also--apparently based upon trends at other resorts.

If BLT were to keep its 2009 chart through, say, 2011, there will be a wide disparity between weekend prices at BLT and all other resorts. BLT owners could save 15-20 points per night by moving from a BLT Lake View room to a BoardWalk View or AKL Savanna View. Not all would choose to make that move, but you better believe some would.

So for 2 years BLT would (theoretically) have an even lower weekend occupancy rate than what was used as the basis for this adjustment. And as soon as DVC had enough data to reallocate charts based upon actual history (2 years max), the weekdays would rise even higher than the published 2010 rates we see now.

I think that's a legitimate scenario that will play out if members are successful in getting DVC to push-back the 2010 BLT points for a couple of years.

Second, if the total number of points are not allowed to increase then why the blazes is my 2010 point chart out of balance with my 2009? Granted BLT hasn't seen as much a swing as SSR, but the increase is there.

There are always variances from year-to-year in total points due to when weekends fall. The Christmas Premier season runs from Christmas Eve until New Year's Eve (8 nights.) In 2009 those two days are both on weekdays, meaning that block of Premier has only two weekend nights. In 2010 they are both Fridays which brings the weekend total to three nights.

Other variations occur throughout years as seasonal change dates fall on weekdays vs. weekends.

The POS makes mention of using a "Base Year" to compute the point charts. There is also mention of using expected booking patterns in counting lockoffs under either the two bedroom or Studio + 1B charts. Without knowing the exact structure of the Base Year and the lockoff ratio, it is going to be really tough to do any direct before/after comparisons.

 

[tjkraz]

Like you I thought when reallocation came, that early December would move from Adventure to Choice season for all resorts.

It's probably due to the 20% cap on increases. I don't think they could have both raised the weekday rates AND moved Dec 1-14 to a higher season while staying under the 20% increase limit.

I agree that change is probably next. Could be 2011...2 years...5 years...but demand for early-December clearly dictates that it is priced too low.

 

[WolfpackFan]

I agree that change is probably next. Could be 2011...2 years...5 years...but demand for early-December clearly dictates that it is priced too low.

So if early-December is priced too low and DVC increases the points, they would need to lower points during some other period of time. What period would they do that I wonder?

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I'm going to make a statement that's going to certainly open up Pandora's box but I think it needs to be said.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complainers fall into the category below and it's starting to tick me off. I spent a LOT of money on DVC and I don't have to take advantage of the system. Let me explain.

I see thread after thread week after week here with people talking about buying just enough points to bank and borrow so they can vacation every 2 or 3 years (this mostly happens with the 3 year folks).

In my humble opinion, those are the folks that are really getting screwed in this deal. Or ARE they really? By definition, these people are using the banking and borrowing windows to extend points beyond their intended purpose. You're suppose to have enough points in any given year to take the vacation you intend to take!

The banking and borrowing windows were created to help us avoid wasting points in years we couldn't use them and to borrow in years for a "special" circumstance or special vacation.

The B&B rules were not put in place for someone to take a very deliberate and exact number of points (that were only 1/3 enough to begin with) for a very deliberate number of days at a very deliberate season and tweak and twine them so you could get exactly 5 days in exactly this room at this resort on these days every 3 years. Now you may not like hearing that because it doesn't suit your purpose but it's the truth. If you are doing this, you are taking advantage of a system that was designed to protect me.

More power to ya if it's worked for you up until now but I have very little sympathy for you if you're one of the these people and these changes adversely affected you.

The DVC system was designed for people who want to vacation at Disney at least once per year. That was explained clearly in my presentation. That's the reason the resorts have a minimum buy-in for new members and why I bought 160 at AKV and 160 at BLT.

I, personally, have NO sympathy for anyone that used the system to their own advantqage as I have outlined above. Again, for emphasis, more power to ya if you got away with it to this point but if you figured it all so tightly that you can't abuse it anymore, too bad. That wasn't the way the system was designed to be used.

To those that bought little 50 point resales to try to do the "3 year trick" and never bothered to learn what they were getting into, sell out or buy more. There are plenty of people out there like me that could use your 50 point contracts without abusing the system.

I don't like the changes either but I own enough points that with banking and borrowing, there is very little chance that this change (this round, at least) will ever adversely affect me because I also own enough points to use the system as it was designed to be used.

Flame away but don't stand on a soapbox if you own 53 points and not expect me to kick your box....