Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[dd08]

Nevermind

 

[toocherie]

Well, I don't know if DH had the right to ask when he sent his email this morning. But along with stating his dissatisfaction of not being notified of the change when we attended presentations 3 months ago and made it very clear we are Sun-Fri stayers. He asked for the reason they did not send advance notification to members or notify guides, he also asked for their rational in making the changes. If the response comes back 'none of your business' I'm afraid I best start learning to like Harry Potter, Jaws, and the Hulk.

Please let us know how they respond!

 

[MiaSRN62]

For a sold out resort it should end up booking pretty solid most of the year. So if there is excess inventory, that is a major problem and one that should be addressed by all means possible. It means there are excess points some where. DVC has addressed it somewhat by using a disproportionate amount of excess points (exchanges and the like) at SSR and OKW along with cash rental inventory slanted to those 2 resorts. The problem is there is only so much they can do. It's possible we'll see re-allocation that's disproportionate to certain resorts just for this reason. I wonder what the percentage of points are owned and lost due to this issue, it's got to be substantial across the membership.

Thanks for your insight on this Dean. This all doesn't come easy to me. Thanks to Tim as well............

not to disrespect you but i do believe you stated earlier that you could only go over spring break because of your kids school schedule. but you are talking about adding sun-thur at disney after your other week. i dont get it. i am just a little confused

ashbradnmom....
Actually we never go over spring break. It's over the summer we go (usually beginning of Aug which is Magic season). We have always added our OKW Sun through Thurs days on to our offsite timeshare week. So we usually check out of Vistana on Sunday morning and check into OKW.

We like to take a nice long summer trip. This past Aug, we were in FL for 3 weeks. Part of that was time moving one of my kids into their freshman year at college so we had family orientation and all. But 10-14 nights is about our average to vacation and usually during the month of August. We also have lots of family in the general Orlando area or not more than a 90 min drive away and we visit them while we're in FL too. So no disrespect taken. I hope my explanation helped to make it a little better to understand.

Maria

 

[ashbradnmom]

But was there some other issue besides ? I have NEVER had an issue getting OKW (weekday or weekend) for them to put me in a 30 point deficit ? OKW rarely books up solid except busy seasons (and I'm not even counting summer because we've been able to book there 30-40 days out during summer months). So I can't imagine people at OKW were unable to get weekdays ?

And besides.....dh and I worked out how we can maximize our 150 points there during the week every year.
Night 1: 2 studios = 24 points
Nights 2-3 : 1 bedroom = 52 points
Nights 4-5 : 2 bedroom = 72 points

This will be 148 (plus extra housekeeping costs for DVC that they ordinarily wouldn't have incurred with us). I'll probably use the extra 2 points towards AKV where I am also coming up short----but much less so---for week days.

Maria

I am glad that you found a way to stay 5 nights still and i am sorry if i disrespected you in any way. I stated earlier i still do not know how it is going to affect me because i can be flexible.

I still do not like the notice they gave all of us.

 

[ashbradnmom]

Thanks for your insight on this Dean. This all doesn't come easy to me. Thanks to Tim as well............


ashbradnmom....
Actually we never go over spring break. It's over the summer we go (usually beginning of Aug which is Magic season). We have always added our OKW Sun through Thurs days on to our offsite timeshare week. So we usually check out of Vistana on Sunday morning and check into OKW.

We like to take a nice long summer trip. This past Aug, we were in FL for 3 weeks. Part of that was time moving one of my kids into their freshman year at college so we had family orientation and all. But 10-14 nights is about our average to vacation and usually during the month of August. We also have lots of family in the general Orlando area or not more than a 90 min drive away and we visit them while we're in FL too. So no disrespect taken. I hope my explanation helped to make it a little better to understand.

Maria

I was there also in aug for 10 days at the begining of the month boy it was hot. but that is what you get for AUG in FL. We were there for my sons 3rd birthday and he loved it i cant beleive he is still talking about it today.

 

[Scott]

t

I think for some of the room categories the 20% cap on point change per night would limit the point changes to 1-2 points. On others, my guess is that someone was picking an increase that would be a "step in the right direction" to reduce instances of hitting people with a 4-5 pt/night increase. So, over the next few years, we may see the points differential between week nights and weekend nights erode further. I've speculated elsewhere that this may be part of a multi-year reallocation process with 2010 being the first one towards some goal point charts created based upon prior occupancy/demand usage data.

If that's the case, management's perspective may be that they are phasing the reallocation into the system over time in a way that does not make the whole change they believe is necessary in one big leap. I'm not defending them, and I certainly think that the lack of communication and notification to current and new members was awful. I'm just stating that DVC management may have actually believed that these charts minimized the planning impact on membership rather than going in one jump to where they think the point charts should ultimately reach. If so, going back to communication, I would certainly appreciate knowing what that point is so that I can plan accordingly now, rather than scramble every time an incremental change is made along the path.

Very interesting perspective I hope you're wrong though! I would still love to know why the charts were originally set up to favor weekday stays, and what has changed to create an impetus for the change?Certainly, DVC knew the discounted weekday structure would affect occupancy patterns. At this point I've heard two explanations: 1. To keep locals from filling up weekend availability, and 2. To keep the parks filled during the week. The cynic in me wants to add a third: to make DVC membership appear much more affordable to those who would otherwise not purchase. Perhaps this is part of a strategy to shift their sales focus away from budget minded families and travelers?

 

[MiaSRN62]

I am glad that you found a way to stay 5 nights still and i am sorry if i disrespected you in any way. I stated earlier i still do not know how it is going to affect me bucause i can be flexible.

No harm ashbradnmom.....I'm glad u can be flexible. I hope to be in that situation one day........I could really stretch my points if I could travel in Adventure season. But by the time I find myself able to do that, I'm sure DVC would have done the point charts all over again......
Maria

 

[ashbradnmom]

No harm ashbradnmom.....I'm glad u can be flexible. I hope to be in that situation one day........I could really stretch my points if I could travel in Adventure season. But by the time I find myself able to do that, I'm sure DVC would have done the point charts all over again......
Maria

I totally agree. You can never tell what the future will bring. Hopefully it will be more days at WDW with my kids and some day with the grandkids.

 

[drusba]

You may well be correct, but it's also something you could cautiously file under the heading of "be careful what you wish for..."

Bear with me for a moment. Let's assume that BLT would actually get a reprieve from the 2010 increases. That sets up the following scenario:

Two bedroom Villa
Friday-Saturday Stay
Dream Season

Beach Club Villas: 58 points
BWV Preferred: 58 points
OKW: 52 points
AKV Savanna: 59 points
BLT Lake View: 70 points
BLT MK View: 86 points

While the weekday points at BLT will remain at their lower variants, the weekends will be much higher. This disparity will be high enough to convince some guests to move from BLT on the weekdays to other resorts.

That would lead to an even greater disparity between weekday/weekend occupancy at BLT. And in 1-2 years when DVC has enough data to reallocate the BLT charts, the weekday prices may be even higher than what is currently posted for 2010.

(In my mind it's undeniable that some people would make this move--the only point open to debate is the severity of the shift and whether it's significant enough to alter the point chart further.)

As I look at it, BLT owners need fuel to make Disney realize it has acted improperly and faces the risk of having its change successfully challenged. These members have literally been screwed. Concealed from them when they bought is that the change was going to be made. They bought relying on the chart they saw, and now they are SOL because Disney raised the minimum to 100 points for an add-on. Disney not only did wrong but added insult to the injury. It is the epitome of a series of stupid management decisions that failed to consider the interests of those purchasing at BLT and it is so bad that it looks intentional. At the very least Disney should permit those members to have the option of either purchasing a 10 point or more add-on at the discounted price originally paid or to rescind the entire transaction and get their money back.

 

[La2kw]

This will be us.

Due to airfare costs we seek to maximize our # of days on vacation since we typically only take one "flying" vacation per year. Thus far that has meant a minimum of 7 days and a desire to stay longer.

With weekend points now lower it will be more cost effective than it was previously for us to add days on to either the beginning or end of our 7 day stays.

Not necessarily. We always have stayed more than 7 days. If we check in on Sunday for a week and stay Sun-Thurs of the following week, we have 12 nights for 328 points at OKW in a 1BR in July. With the new point chart, that same stay will cost us 350 points. The weekdays now cost more points, so we have to stay fewer nights than we have been able to for the past 13 years. Now we can only stay 11 nights for 324 points. This reallocation benefits people who stay only 7 days or who stay primarily weekends.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I understand the dissatisfaction over the way this was released. And I've stated multiple times that I agree BLT owners were not treated properly here.

But setting that commentary aside, this would very much be a reprieve. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the point charts have been skewed for quite a few years now. BLT will be no different. And if BLT were to be the only resort to keep its 2009 chart for another year or two, the imbalance could be even worse. As I demonstrated it would be much cheaper to move to BCV, BWV, AKV Savanna or any other DVC resort/class on the weekends and still save points. IMO, it's not too far-fetched for BLT to be a virtual ghost town on those weekends, with only the die-hards that refuse to move sticking it out.

And then when the inevitable reallocation for BLT did occur, you may be paying even MORE on the weekdays.

You may see it as an opportunity to set the charts correctly for BLT, but know that the values would ultimately be skewed by the existence of cheaper options at other resorts. And BLT owners would ultimately pay the price for the data being skewed.

You have an excellent point on how BLT owners can maximize their points but I don't think we'll ever see an evening out, say for example, between BLT MK view and BCV 2 bedrooms (or others) on weekends. BLT has too many points and they have to be "charged" somewhere. And the actual cost to a BLT owner to stay in the 2 bedroom MK view is almost identical to a BCV owner in a 2 bedroom if you only look at maintenance fees. I think it's far more likely for the deserting of BLT on weekends if they don't allow current BLT owners to buy the number of points now needed. And, they should encourage an added cushion.

I also haven't said that they should leave the 2009 chart. Just that they never should have sold with it in the 1st place and now they need to correct that mistake and allow BLt owners to "correct" their purchase. I'd even go so far as to say they should even buy back purchases if the buyer now feels it's out of their reach for the stay they wanted. This was total misrepresentation.

As far as reprieve I think that everyone is just getting a year or two until the next change if the goal truely is to shift weekday to weekend useage.

Other resort have had up to 12 years of knowing exactly what they needed for their stay. I just think that BLT (and maybe new Kidani) owners deserve at least 1 year before their told they need to start borrowing b/c they don't have enough points.

If I were asked, my recommendation for new BLT owners would be to buy a cushion b/c it probably will change again - but to require a 100 pt cushion b/c they didn't provide information of the change before opening? That borders on fraudulent or something similar IMO.

 

[lugnut33]

So, can we come up with a catchy name for this DVC scandal, you know like those cool names that CNN and Fox News come up with?

Here's my entry: "DVC Re-allogate"

How about: "Jim Lewis, Weapon Of Mass Destructiongate"

Or: "My name is not Lou Mongello eventhough I now come up shortgate"

What about this one for the guides: "I know nothinggate".

Lastly: "Welcome Owned"

 

[BroganMc]

So, can we come up with a catchy name for this DVC scandal, you know like those cool names that CNN and Fox News come up with?

I like the simple yet accurate: "DVC Pointgate"

And yes, I'm more firmly in the camp of DVC is trying to mess with me. I'm in that category of having an existing SSR ownership (that my evidence is pointing toward some very hinky point increases) and sitting on papers for a BLT add-on.

I've been looking at those papers pretty closley this weekend. This is what I found concerning point re-allocation:

BLT CONTRACT

9. Each DVC Resort Vacation Home is assigned a nightly Vacation Point value, which varies depending upon the season of use, location and the size of the Vacation Home. The number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change based on seasonal demand. Except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year:

- The total number of Vacation points required to use all Vacation Homes during each calendar year through January 31, 2060 can never increase.
-If Vacation Points for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease on another night or nights.
- Reallocation cannot exceed 20% per calendar year, except under limited circumstances.

END CONTRACT EXCERPT

So this makes me pause on two accounts. First, how can there be a demonstrated "seasonal demand" to warrant such change when the resort isn't even open for occupancy yet. (How do we know more people won't be staying weekends, in 1bedrooms or using Grand Villas? Heck, how do we know there won't be a greater demand for Standard View rooms over Magic Kingdom View, or Lake View over all of them? There have been absolutely NO bookings yet.)

Second, if the total number of points are not allowed to increase then why the blazes is my 2010 point chart out of balance with my 2009? Granted BLT hasn't seen as much a swing as SSR, but the increase is there.

I'm very interested to see what answers we get from upper management this week.

 

[lugnut33]

Brogan, as a protest you should send the contract back to them all shredded up. It's not like they are going to ban you from buying at a later time, plus you get the satisfaction of sticking it to the man a little bit.

Besides, maybe the incentives will be better in a few months.

 

[toocherie]

So, can we come up with a catchy name for this DVC scandal, you know like those cool names that CNN and Fox News come up with?

Here's my entry: "DVC Re-allogate"

How about: "Jim Lewis, Weapon Of Mass Destructiongate"

Or: "My name is not Lou Mongello eventhough I now come up shortgate"

What about this one for the guides: "I know nothinggate".

Lastly: "Welcome Owned"

I vote for the first one! Very funny post lugnut!

I like the simple yet accurate: "DVC Pointgate"

And yes, I'm more firmly in the camp of DVC is trying to defraud me. I'm in that category of having an existing SSR ownership (that my evidence is pointing toward some very hinky point increases) and sitting on papers for a BLT add-on.

I've been looking at those papers pretty closley this weekend. This is what I found concerning point re-allocation:

9. Each DVC Resort Vacation Home is assigned a nightly Vacation Point value, which varies depending upon the season of use, location and the size of the Vacation Home. The number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change based on seasonal demand. Except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year:

- The total number of Vacation points required to use all Vacation Homes during each calendar year through January 31, 2060 can never increase.
-If Vacation Points for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease on another night or nights.
- Reallocation cannot exceed 20% per calendar year, except under limited circumstances.

So this makes me pause on two accounts. First, how can there be a demonstrated "seasonal demand" to warrant such change when the resort isn't even open for occupancy yet. (How do we know more people won't be staying weekends, in 1bedrooms or using Grand Villas? Heck, how do we know there won't be a greater demand for Standard View rooms over Magic Kingdom View, or Lake View over all of them? There have been absolutely NO bookings yet.)

Second, if the total number of points are not allowed to increase then why the blazes is my 2010 point chart out of balance with my 2009? Granted BLT hasn't seen as much a swing as SSR, but the increase is there.

I'm very interested to see what answers we get from upper management this week.

Brogan--I am more concerned about the language bolded above. What "limited circumstances"? It's rather vague, frankly. Does "limited circumstances" only mean for a short period of time? Or does it mean that if there are only one or two villa types that are affected?

 

[kerickson]

Brogan--I am more concerned about the language bolded above. What "limited circumstances"? It's rather vague, frankly. Does "limited circumstances" only mean for a short period of time? Or does it mean that if there are only one or two villa types that are affected?

I believe the SSR contract states there has to be a 60% membership approval to make a change greater than 20% in a given year. If they did change it to this vague language, it is concerning. I'm interested to know what VGC states...

 

[toocherie]

I believe the SSR contract states there has to be a 60% membership approval to make a change greater than 20% in a given year. If they did change it to this vague language, it is concerning. I'm interested to know what VGC states...

Yes, I think when I get my VGC contract I'm going to have to scan and convert my SSR contract and the VGC contract and run a comparison to see what is different . . . .

 

[BroganMc]

Brogan, as a protest you should send the contract back to them all shredded up. It's not like they are going to ban you from buying at a later time, plus you get the satisfaction of sticking it to the man a little bit.

Besides, maybe the incentives will be better in a few months.

Aye but there's the rub. I never intended my BLT add-on to be anything more than a 3-day a year studio stint. My add-on is for 60 pts (not really affected by the change since it included a 15 point buffer) and in this game of chicken DVC has decided to change the rules and force me to either buy this now or pony up $4000 more for 100 pts.

I fully expect we'll see some sort of resolution by the end of this week. The next move is DVC's. They need to come up with either a re-evaluation of the points, a damn good detailed explanation to members, and/or some reprieves for those minimum add-on windows.

As it stands now, the timing of the new point charts released on a website less than a week AFTER the minimum add-on window closes... well let's just say that's not the sort of behavior I'd expect from an honorable timeshare company. It smells like a shellgame.

So I look at these contract papers and ask myself whether I can trust their honor enough to enter into another binding, legal agreement with them.

One thing I absolutely refuse to do is play their game of increasing my add-on to allot for another point increase. If I can't get some information this week that reassures me they aren't willfully messing with me (just being exceptionally dimwitted in communication skills), I won't complete the contract.

I do hate to say all that. I have had a lot of respect for the company up till now. It means a lot when they can shake my trust this profoundly.

Unlike what has been alleged, I have attended and overheard many a sales presentation at SSR over the last 3 years. I've often heard the explanation that while point charts can be reallocated they are not likely and are done so only in a way that balances out their use for the year within the chart. So when buyers had been advised how many points to purchase it was done with a consideration for the highest amount needed. No 20% point buffer or some such. And Guides were fond of saying that the point charts "never change" unlike room rentals. Note, I do think the Guides were duped here as much as the buyers. Trouble is, I think it's the Guides who could be in legal trouble for that according to Florida Law.

 

[BroganMc]

Brogan--I am more concerned about the language bolded above. What "limited circumstances"? It's rather vague, frankly. Does "limited circumstances" only mean for a short period of time? Or does it mean that if there are only one or two villa types that are affected?

Good question. FYI, I bolded it because that's how it appears in my BLT papers - bolded. I just added the italics to differentiate from my post.

My best guess is that they mean certain room categories, assuming there are so few of them they need to adjust more radically. Like perhaps the 15 concierge rooms at AKV.

The trouble I have with this point chart math is that we do not get changes in charts for every year. 2009 are the same charts we've gotten since I owned in '06, for all the resorts. I do a running tally of charts so know what the schedules were outside my home resort.

But if the point chart math is supposed to reflect some number of all possible point totals for a resort in a particular calendar year (with a different mix of weekend days and weekdays), then why ever have a replicated chart year after year? These clauses seemed to address the balance of points within the chart. I'm betting a lot of people listened or read that caveat and thought "well if it's more expensive to go for Christmas then it'll be less expensive to go for Summer if they change things".

Not many buyers (I overheard or talked to) were considering points only enough for some weekdays or weekends. They usually debated room sizes, seasons and weekly costs. There's a lot of chatter here, but I'm guessing the membership at large will find a good number equally upset about it. These new weekly totals have made a lot of ownership contracts unusable for their intended purpose.

What stood out most to me was the jump in Choice season at SSR for studios. They went from a weekly rate under 100 pts to just over. If you planned a studio for Christmas week at BLT (Lake View), and bought the even number (200 pts) you'd now be 1 pt short.

Caveat: It does seem to me BLT's point shifts are less. SSR's shifts are far more dramatic.

 

[PeteNCathy]

When I purchased BCV I bought 252 points for 1 week stay and was told it could never go up,only minor date changes.Now it will be 254 points for 1 week.It seems that they are doing something illegal..unless they give me 2 free points a year.The way the dues are going up its almost not worth it anymore might have to dump my points on the next sucker.