Disney Theme Parks: Today vs. Yesterday

[curtisl]

...nobody's impressed with anything anymore and everythings been discovered.

So much for developing great attractions about nanotechnology, bioengineering, subatomic particles, and quantum physics.

So what if the majority of the ocean is unexplored and we've barely explored the known universe.

No wonder nobody goes to science museums anymore even though they keep constantly adding and updating their exhibits. New Yorks Hayden Planetarium must really suck and I'm glad I don't have enough money to fly over and see it.

 

[crusader]

Man, you tend to the real world and look what happens.
Warning: the contents of this thread may involve innumerable quoting.

How will they update Test Track and Mission Space? A thrill ride is nearly impossible to update once it has been built.

I don't see the imminent need to update a thrill ride - Space Mountain has remained popular since 1975.

Forgive me for getting all worked up over this, but exactly what does queue (venue) line length have to do with the popularity of an attraction anyway? You cannot judge popularity by line length.

You can whenever a once prevalent wait time dwindles to the point of the attraction becoming a walk-on and no other variables apply. What that tells you is that the ride is not popular enough for anyone to even attend, let alone wait in line for. It is not worth their time.

High capactity, fast-loading rides tend, for these reasons, to not develop much of a line - and many of the original Epcot attractions fit into this category.

Tower of Terror has a high capacity. So does Test Track.

No wonder nobody goes to science museums anymore even though they keep constantly adding and updating their exhibits.

If I wanted to go to a museum I'd tour the Smithsonian for free.

Perhaps a better question would be to ask how Epcot could remain the 3rd most attended park in the country with so few substantial updates/additions over the last 15 years...

Ok back up. We're talking about Future World - not all of EPCOT.

The better questions are:

How much time do people actually spend touring Future World while visiting EPCOT? AND

Where are they going when they are there?

In retrospect, Future World did not open with all its exhibits - remember, The Living Seas and Body Wars were added later.

Here's the October 1, 1982 rundown of attractions:

Spaceship Earth, Communicores East and West, Horizons, The Land, Journey Into Imagination and the Universe of Energy.

The Living Seas was opened in 1986
The Wonders of Life in 1988

That aside, within 15-20 years, Two of the BIG FIVE have had to be completely torn down and redone and the remaining originals (with the exception of The Land - maybe) need some serious revision, Imagination being the worst.

Now considering the fact that it takes literally years to build one of these monstrosities, to have to scrap it and start over within 15 years of operation spells potential "white elephant" to me.

And now the moment one of you may have been waiting for:

I think a lot of 'hedge' room has already been given,

Not this time buddy. Experience counts for everything. No survey; No stat; No grid, scale or chart can change what the eyes actually behold. The truth is telling the real story.

Just where did you glean such a thing? 5 years into it? Really? Please back it up!!

If you need to verify this you need to speak with a veteran CM who has worked exclusively at the Future World attractions every summer since the park opened. OR find an audience who shares your history and take a trip down memory lane from 83 to 88 looking only at the wait times for the original attractions.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

How much time do people actually spend touring Future World while visiting EPCOT?

Again, Mr. Cursader, are we talking about the same thing? If you are talking about today, I would have to agree!! Heck! I’ll lead the charge!!!

EPCOT (future world at least) IS EVERY BIT AS BORING AS HOMER SIMPSON SAYS IT IS!!!!

There!! Are we in agreement now?

But… Yes! But!! As to the reason why!!

I would have liked to see the plans for updates and additions at least go through the first round before BLAMING the original concept. Maybe you’re perspicacious enough to cut through what actually happened and ‘predict’ with NO SUPPORTING DATA WHATSOEVER, what would have happened in some alternate universe. GOSH!! I can’t do that.

All I can do is consider what Disney, WED and the entire Imagineering group had done in the past. What concepts had they come up that WOWed!!! What “things” they built that Exceeded EVERYONE’S Expectations!! Did they ever fail to deliver on a promise of that magnitude!?!? Did they ever really, totally, completely drop the ball, as you suggest they all collectively did with Future World.

I don’t know. Maybe it is just me. But, I tend to believe these people. The ones that brought us Disneyland, WDW, Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln, and ALL those wonderful films!!! Yes!! I would tend to believe them when they said, very clearly and in every sponsorship contract, that they did indeed have a plan that would keep EPCOT (both worlds) as fresh as humanly possible.

I guess you’d rather believe the current administration. Yeah! That’s right!! Why even try! It’d never work anyway. Besides do we really want to spend money on a place that we all “The Big Guy” not only doesn’t understand but really, really HATES!!!!

Am I starting to understand your point of view a little more now?

Spaceship Earth, Communicores East and West, Horizons, The Land, Journey Into Imagination and the Universe of Energy.

I hate to split hairs but I searched and searched this sentence and could not find Motion anywhere!! When was that built!?!?

Not this time buddy. Experience counts for everything. No survey; No stat; No grid, scale or chart can change what the eyes actually behold. The truth is telling the real story.

YEAH!!! GOODY!!! HOORAY!!! I can hardly wait!! At last he is going to name an authority!!!! (the anticipation grows….)

If you need to verify this you need to speak with a veteran CM who has worked exclusively at the Future World attractions every summer since the park opened. OR find an audience who shares your history and take a trip down memory lane from 83 to 88 looking only at the wait times for the original attractions.

WHAT!!!!!????? THAT WAS ANSWER??!?!?!

Come on!! Surely you can do better than that!!

 

[curtisl]

My point in my previous post is that the Future and science are exciting and the subject material is not dead and does not lead to stagnation. My example of the NY Hayden Planetarium was chosen to prove a point.

I have not had the pleasure of visiting the Planetarium and the Rose Center (if someone is willing to pay for me to visit, I will go immediately). However, it's design and architecture would fit perfectly at EPCOT. You could take the whole structure and it would compliment the place perfectly!!! Believe it or not, people who worked on it's design actually designed some of the stuff at EPCOT too. The technology used in it's presentations sound state-of-the art.

Please take a look at it's description: http://www.amnh.org/rose/index.html

I'd believe much if not all of it would fit perfectly at EPCOT. It certainly would make for a great pavillion.

 

[DisneyKidds]

A lot of catch-up, but surprisingly not much to say.....................

So really, you are right, kids will have a wonderful time and develop fond memories at WDW if parents take the attitude you suggest. However, the same is true if they take their kids to many other possible destinations.

Just a quick comment that somewhere along the line in all of this many of us become too jaded. Really, I precariously cling to the bumper of the second vehicle. I agree that WDW isn't nearly as good as it could be. I recognize many of the mistakes and downfalls we all banter about. However, Matt, I believe you are wrong in your statement above. Not that it is ok to excuse the failures of the recent past, not to defend Eisner, not to argue really, but just pointing out that as "bad" as Disney has become, it still instills a sense of wonderment like no other place can. We take our kids LOTS of places, and we view them all with an open mind and an expectation to have a great time, which we always do - and none has made an impression like WDW. Not that I want to get into another discussion about discounting kids opinions, but they are rather discerning individuals who are capable of recognizing the differences between Disney and the other destinations, and they do recognize that there are differences. That's all - back to your regularly scheduled discussion.....................

Oh, and I have to weigh in on this......................

Do you really think that just because you can't envision it, there is no way on earth it could have worked?!? WOW!!

Talk about your classics!! This is the quote of the day. Really Baron - I hope this doesn't offend you, but this statement describes you to a T when it comes to anything that wasn't in Preliminary Plot Plan #5. Case in point, any Disney hotel that is not the CR/Poly with a different theme .

 

[mitros]

Your not kidding, that would make a great addition to Epcot. Thanks for the link to the site!

 

[curtisl]

Think NYC would mind if we airlifted it over?

 

[d-r]

"Actaully, Disneyland's Tomorrowland is shut down because the 1997 change to the WDW "The Future That Never Was" was a complete and utter failure. "

LOL. Tomorrowland in WDW is probably the most popular area of the park, at the minimum in the top 2, and that is the most attended theme park in the world last year. LOL. A complete and utter failure. Just like, let's see, Mission:Space, Test Track, Kilamangaro Safari, Animal Kingdom Lodge, California Grill, Soarin over california, rock n roller coaster, DCA's Alladin show, Pirates of the Caribbean movie, let's see, just about everything that Disney has done that can't be passed off as oriental land company or Pixar. lmao. It might be easier for us to take you seriously if not every thing was such a foregone conclusion, or was based on something besides a burning hatred of Eisner. WDW tomorrowland doesn't have rocket rods, HISTA, or Star Tours, Disneyland doesn't have Buzz, or alien encounter, and the DL tomorrowland is modeled after wdw. Yeah, OK, that was a complete and utter failure now that you put it that way, lol, I didn't know that they changed it to wdw's tomorrowland. And fwiw, Disneyland's Tomorrowland is NOT shut down! I said it should be shut down so that it could be re-done by the 50th.

 

[crusader]

How did this turn into a concept debate? Very well done indeed Sir Baron.

I said, Epcot failed in design and themeing and particularly pointed out a specific design flaw with respect to the Universe of Energy and we spiral into the abyssmal fate of philosophical dribble regarding the conceptual framework of the park prior to Walt's demise. Oh No!!!!!

By design - I did not mean the artist's rendition, I meant what was actually built and how it was made to accomodate the guests. We have to remove those idealism masks and take a cold hard look at the place in order to discuss what we are now experiencing.

I think I've finally deduced the fundamental distinctions between the two medians: One views philosophically - the other views analytically and here's where the two universes collide: Welcome to Pergatory!!!!

One quick side not to curtisl - you're absolutely correct in that EPCOT is a great medium for science. In fact, the Land does an outstanding job of providing a fantastic ride exhibit in this capacity. But you must admit, we wouldn't want an entire park solely designed like this. How many families were realistically able to endure the extensive length of time each of the original venues demanded?

Which brings me back to design failure. I thought Universe of Energy was by far one of the best exhibits EPCOT unveiled in 1982. That moving theatre apparatus is phenominal - an engineering genius!!! The problem comes in with the "all encompassing" format. There is no choice but to sit through the whole process which takes an extensive amount of time. It is a really great venue to experience, but easy to pass up the next visit.

An experienced WDW visitor will incorporate attractions into their touring plans very carefully and they will weigh very heavily the advantages before accomodating anything which is extensive to attend. It all boils down to variety and personal selection.

EPCOT needed to include a variety in attraction style in order to redirect the guests back to the park. They are succeeding with Test Track and I will bet Mission Space will accomplish this even more.

So Baron, in response, I believe they have made changes and are working on this project. I don't believe Future World will continue to appear boring (provided of course they dismantle the Journey into Imagination ride)

Yes, the concept was re-tooled and built away from Walt's ideal but it certainly has merit.

You can blame the CEO all you want, but I am really looking forward to Mission Space and want to thank whomever it was that realized there are many of us would love to try out a NASA testing chamber. This is brilliant!!!

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by d-r
Just like, let's see, Mission:Space, Test Track, Kilamangaro Safari, Animal Kingdom Lodge, California Grill, Soarin over california, rock n roller coaster, DCA's Alladin show, Pirates of the Caribbean movie, let's see, just about everything that Disney has done that can't be passed off as oriental land company or Pixar.

LOL!!!! is this the list of great accomplishments that your going with d-r? Really you and Pirate are becoming more alike everyday. Would you really like to see the list of crap that we've had to wade though to get that "great" list of products? LOL! Heck I would not even call AKL a success especially since they had to basically knock it down to moderate prices just to get people to stay there. Now come on this is too funny. You put up a list of 9 things like its some sort of great accomplishment by Eisner and friends. Cheese and Rice Fox Family its self trumps all of those items and is bad enough to wipe that list...and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[MelissathePooh]

Europa,

Are you saying that the Disney theme parks (US parks) have had nothing but failures since Eisner?


One point about Epcot - 2002 attendance is down 8% from 2001 while still maintaining 3rd place overall. But I'm not sure that 8 million people a year given a park that large and of that magnitude can be considered successful. Heck, the Tenneessee Aquarium gets a million guests a year.

Bear in mind I enjoy Epcot quite a bit - its a great place to hang out, but thats about all it is. There are a handful of attractions I enjoy, but not many. I'm not even really a big Test Track fan - but I have to wonder how much more empty FW would be without it?

Some here believe its solely Eisners fault for not keeping up with it, I don't believe that it (Epcot) would have been that easy to update regardless of who was in charge. Neglecting it certainly hasn't helped, but not all attractions have been neglected - some have had refurbs, while you can easily argue the quality of some of the makeovers - I'm not sure what could be done with Universe of Energy or Spaceship Earth that wouldn't be a major overhaul or a simple layover where success doesn't last long.

I'm still curious as to why the redid Journey Into Imagination in the first place - does anyone remember?

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by MelissathePooh
Europa,

Are you saying that the Disney theme parks (US parks) have had nothing but failures since Eisner?

No.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Just playing catch up. Mr. Crusader first, then we’ll see what Melissa just posted.

How did this turn into a concept debate? Very well done indeed Sir Baron.

I thank you, but I really don’t deserve it. Melissa started it when she questioned the original design. And well… That naturally leads us right back to the very foundation. That good old ‘philosophy’!!

You said of the Universe of Energy:

Which brings me back to design failure. … -SNIP- … It is a really great venue to experience, but easy to pass up the next visit.

I agree with every word!! I would say that in this one particular instance you are 100% correct. But let’s read on just a further in your own post…

EPCOT needed to include a variety in attraction style in order to redirect the guests back to the park.

So. Which other attraction was like Energy? Or did the others provide the very ‘variety’ you mentioned? Now, did they have a thrill ride? NO! They did not. According to the plan, several were earmarked for the non-Future World aspect of the same park, World Showcase. Yes!!! How nice!! A variety of fun, entertaining, educational, interactive, amusing, pleasurable, compelling, engaging, appealing, interesting (etc., etc. etc.) attractions in Future world, balanced by the very serene World Showcase, with a couple of dashes of THRILL just to spice things up!!!! Not a bad plan, eh?

Now, I’ll grant you that Energy falls into the category that you would like to wrap up ALL of Future World. But as it turns out, it is just on the far end of the spectrum. On the other end you had an easily changeable, ‘spend-as-much-time-as-you-like’ Communicore (East & West)!!! And everything in-between!!

It could be that somewhere down the road a thrill type ADDITION would be required in Future World, but I really don’t think so. You have to keep in mind that Future World is NOT a separate gate. It is a part of what should have been, the all encompassing (drum roll please) - - - E.P.C.O.T. Center!! And that was to be the center point of all of WDW!! It was NOT supposed to be just one of four amusement parks in Walt Disney® World!! Another part of the “plan” which was never implemented!! And very few realize such a plan even existed!!

You can blame the CEO all you want, but I am really looking forward to Mission Space and want to thank whomever it was that realized there are many of us would love to try out a NASA testing chamber. This is brilliant!!!

So let me get this straight. A really fast spinner, is a better concept, plan and ‘design’ than what went into Future World (and really when you get right down to it, all of E.P.C.O.T. Center) in the first place? I think you said – “brilliant”!! BRILLIANT!!! BRILLIANT!!!???

My oh my!! I think it’s time to agree to disagree!!

 

[d-r]

LOL!!!! is this the list of great accomplishments that your going with d-r?

Actually, Europa, I wasn't trying a list of "accomplishments," I was listing off the top of my head, without spending time to go back and look things up because I don't care enough to bother - of things that AV has railed against when someone else liked them - use your memory of things that have been discussed on this board - I can't think of one single thing that is not Pixar, not OLC that he hasn't been negative about. If you can't get what I was saying, then at least I'm glad I gave you a laugh because I was having one, too Let me be more clear. It just really isn't that interesting to read the same old thing when you know that it is a.) going to be negative no matter what, b.) even if it objective and is proved wrong, won't be admitted, and c.) for subjective things will try to demean anyone who disagrees or actually likes something as false, wrong, stupid, and/or with contempt as snow globe collectors.... you know, thanks for helping me realize how completely freaking boring it is. As for the larger topic, I've said on here very clearly in threads before what I think and have thought about Epcot, and I know that I have a very different point of view from any of you, even Melissa, so I'm not really that interested in that part, either. Hell, nevermind.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

some have had refurbs, while you can easily argue the quality of some of the makeovers

Isn’t THAT the crux of the problem. Isn’t that little sentence vital to the survival of EPCOT. Not an easy job at all. Something that would have taken all the energies of all the Imagineers to accomplish! And OH MY GOD!! The budget!!! But I really think they could have done it. At least I would have LOVED to see them try!!!! Wouldn’t you?

I'm still curious as to why the redid Journey Into Imagination in the first place - does anyone remember?

Do you want the truth or the ‘official’ corporate spin?

 

[d-r]

Melissa here

I still think the theme is flawed, but anyway...

both versions of the Imagination story would be appreciated - what are they?

Melissa

 

[crusader]

Or did the others provide the very ‘variety’ you mentioned?

Excluding The Land, the other originals provided absolutely no variety in terms of the way they presented the attraction with the exception of content and ride vehicle design.

For example, lets start with the second extinction: Horizons
Here's a link walking you through the intricate details of that attraction: http://www.intercot.com/edc/Horizons/hscript1.html

Now, insert: Spaceship Earth and Journey into the Imagination or even Carousel of Progress or the aftershow of Space Mountain if you will.

Where is your cookie cutter cry FOUL???

Same $h!+; different format. Surely you can understand that?

 

[Another Voice]

"Excluding The Land, the other originals provided absolutely no variety in terms of the way they presented the attraction with the exception of content and ride vehicle design."

Becauase the attractions were about theme and subject and story.

If you want to go ride on little boats and then on little trains and then on little fake airplanes - go to a kiddie land.

This is complaining that they only show movies in a movie theater.



But none of this is really about EPCOT or flawed themes or "boring" education or how it's impossible to change a ride once it's built or "Walt was a greedy S.O.B. who opened half parks for the money".

No this is all about "you can't say bad things about my snow globes becasue YOUR parks sucks MORE".

It's the people who knew what WDW used to be, and the people who never will...

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by Another Voice
No this is all about "you can't say bad things about my snow globes becasue YOUR parks sucks MORE".

It's the people who knew what WDW used to be, and the people who never will...

Sounds like you're just looking at a different collection of snow globes.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Sounds like you're just looking at a different collection of snow globes.

Ahhh.....but you see, he and his ilk are the only ones who know the REAL snow globes that everyone else SHOULD be looking at .

I usually find playing that Disney superiority card to be a rather ineffective way of continuing a conversation. Sometimes they may hold the card, sometimes they only think they do, but playing it as such is in poor taste, IMHO. Then again, some have taken to only making sarcastic (and not so sarcastic) one offs, as opposed to really trying to educate people in an effective manner as to what is truely different and why their viepoint might hold more merit. Maybe some feel like that is a pointless endeavour, but resorting to "nanny, nanny, pooh, pooh - I know more than you do" isn't any more productive (if you ask me - which nobody did).

*****end of soapbox mini-rant*****